is this a natural consequence?

[moodymaximus]

let's say DD and I decide to go to an indoor playground. LATER in the day. because i have things to finish at home. meanwhile she starts being upset about a million of things--she wants to go NOW; she doesn't like her snack; she is rude to her brother; etc she's a very negative and intense person right now. i feel i can't blame her for feeling this way--she gets excited, is overwhelmed, gets upset easily and it is a slippery slope into fits of tantruming and crying.

at this situation, what i WANT to do is not to go. i really don't feel like going when she is like this. i feel demoralised and feel i can't handle this kind of behaviour. i do know that this behaviour will end... likely...when we are there. yet my desire for going is nill at that time.

i feel like telling her that because of her behaviour i don't want to go sounds too much like a punishment. i don't want it to be a punishment. but i want to let her know that her behaviour does affect me in this way. (but here i'm lost, philosophically--if should be responsible for my own feelings, in the same way as she should be responsible for hers, how come i AM affected so much?)

[Kessed]

I might be in the minority here - but I feel that it's only fair to let children know that their actions influence other people.

In your situation, I would probably tell her bluntly that her behaviour makes me not want to do something nice for her and take her to the playground. After that sunk in - I would probably tell her the I was still willing to take her - but she needs to realise that her actions influence other people. I would probably follow up with the idea that if this kept happening there might come a day when she pushed me far enough that we actually didn't go.

None of those things seem punitive. They're just the way the world works. You're rude to a cop - and he's less likely to reduce your speeding ticket. You aren't nice to your friends and they aren't nice to you. You don't share your really really yummy lunch today with Jimmy - and he won't share his next Tuesday.

ETA: I feel really strongly about keeping my promises. It would have to be VERY serious for me to actually break my word. So unless she was really out of line - I wouldn't actually not take her.

[bluezephyr]

I would tell her that because of her behavior we were not going to go to the playground. I would weather the tantrum and give her a way to earn back the trip--by being helpful and cooperative for the next few hours, by putting away the silverware from the dishwasher, etc. Our four year old only needs one or two of these kinds of experiences to choose differently. I'm also really clear with her that it's okay to be angry, but it's not okay to be mean, rude, etc. It's okay to say, "I'm mad!" it's okay to throw the special throwing thing we have...but it's not okay to punish other people (or pets) with your anger. I feel strongly about this because the way my family deals with anger is by taking it out on other people. Yuck.

[Kessed]

My parents used to do a form of this. All it did was let me know that no matter what I did - I could always earn back any privaledge. They'd tell me I couldn't go somewhere - and then (and only then) would I actually be polite or do my chores.

What it meant was that I learned that I didn't need to do anything until they pulled out those cards. In my memory - I never actually didn't get to go somewhere - so I knew they were effectivly bluffing.

[Cujobunny]

I would let her know how you are feeling and give her a chance to start calming down before I decided for sure to save it for another day. Maybe point out how she is speaking to her brother and tell her that I'm afraid she is going to treat the kids at the playground the same way.

If the fould mood kept up personally I would not go but in our case, if my ds was in this mood it would not end at the playgym and I would most likely end up leaving early anyway.

I have learned that on days I'm planning to do this type of stuff it's best to do it in the morning when he is in his best mood and I'm at my best to handle anything and do the house stuff in the afternoon.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Hm.. consequence for whom? I also thought taking them to an indoor playplace where I can relax and not worry about them so much while they played with toys that I didn't have to pick up was a treat for ME, regardless of whether they want to go or not! And perhaps the "consequence" of not getting that time is about right given that you have practically set her up to "fail" at being cooperative because she is so excited about going out later and not inclined to wait. In other words, some of this is your "fault" by promising a treat and then making her wait while you do other things, probably not giving her a lot of attention at the same time and not supervising as closely as you might given your drive to get things done.

To me "behave or we aren't going" is more of a threat and isn't going to work anyway. If you truly don't get everything you need to done because she needs so much attention, then you can say "I'm sorry, I need to do X because of Y so we can't go out", but then you also have to be willing to endure the resulting tantrum and not give in, otherwise you have truly set yourself up for unpleasentness next time.

[junipermuse]

It seems very punitive to me. Though I do understand why you wouldn't feel like going anymore after a rough day. But I don't think it is a true natural consquence either. You as the parent are in total control of the situation. You make the decision whether to go or not it really has nothing to do with the natural effect of her actions. If you felt that the tantrums were a sign that she was too tired or wound up to go to the playground and you knew from experience that it would be a miserable experience than imo that would be different, but you have stated that you know she will have fun and behave well once you're there. Also I have a hard time viewing tantrums as misbehavior. It's an expression of very strong powerful feelings. I know that there is a fear that if we don't nip tantrums in the bud that children will end up using them to manipulate us into getting there way. If this is your fear, my feeling is the best way to avoid that is to accept the tantrum lovingly and gracefully. That doesn't mean give in to the tantrum, just love and accept your child while she is tantruming. The natural consequence is just that she doesn't get her way. In this case you don't take her to the playground any sooner than you were originally planning on taking her. This way she soon learns that her tantrums have no power. When she is developmentally capable of controlling her emotions she will. You also might want to work on teaching her ways to calm herself down when she gets really upset. Also I might avoid letting her know too far ahead of time about the trip to the playground. If she's getting overexcited due to anticipation it might be better to tell her just a half hour or so before the trip rather than the morning of. Less wait time may equal a calmer child. Also that way if you have a rough morning and you no longer feel up to going to the playground you can cancel the trip without being punitive because you're not taking something away from the child if she never knew there was a plan to go.Overall I think there are probably better ways to deal with the problem than cancelling a trip which probably would have been a happy, fun, relaxing, energy releasing experience for everyone.

[Magella]

I just want to share my thoughts on this.

Originally Posted by moodymaximus

but i want to let her know that her behaviour does affect me in this way. (but here i'm lost, philosophically--if should be responsible for my own feelings, in the same way as she should be responsible for hers, how come i AM affected so much?)

I do get upset in response to my children's behaviors, but I do think that they aren't causing me to feel anything. What's going on is that I am having certain thoughts about their behavior that lead to my being upset, I have certain expectations that are not met and this leads to my being upset (at times I have needs that I expect them to meet through their behavior), I am understanding their behavior in certain ways that leads to my being upset.

Example: If I do not value my kids' going to sleep early in the night, or by a particular time, then if they stay up late I'm not going to be upset. If I'm a person who believes that kids will fall asleep when they're tired, and I don't mind if they stay up late-it works for me, then I'm not going to be upset if they're still awake late in the night. There are people who really don't have a problem with their kids staying up until late at night, even at young ages-they value their kids' falling asleep when they're ready rather than at a specific time.

If I value my kids' going to sleep early/by a particular time (I do, in fact), I'm likely to become frustrated when they stay awake late. I may start thinking things like "tomorrow is going to be difficult because they're not asleep yet, they aren't going to get enough sleep" or "why won't they sleep?" or "I really want to get some things done, and I can't because they're still awake. They should be asleep by now." I'm frustrated/angry/upset not because of the fact that my kids are awake late, but because I want them to be asleep earlier and they're not. OTOH, if I value my kids going to sleep early/at a certain time (which I do) and they stay up late, I can avoid becoming frustrated and angry by changing how I think about it (which I have). If I think in terms of "what's keeping them awake?" or "how can I help?" instead of "why won't they sleep?" or "they should be asleep"; if I stop thinking about how bad tomorrow will be; if I think in terms of "how can I get done what I need to get done even though they're still awake" or "it can wait until later or tomorrow" instead of "I can't get it done with them awake" then I'm not as upset by the fact that they're still up. I *am* responsible for my feelings, and I *can* choose how I respond/react to what my kids to to a very large extent.

If one of my kids hurts another of my kids, I do get angry. But if I stop and realize that at the root of that feeling of anger is fear (fear that someone will be hurt, fear that my child will grow up to be aggressive/mean, or fear that I'm doing something wrong as a mother, etc.) then I can deal with that and in turn be less angry when it happens. I can choose how to perceive and respond. And some emotion will always be there: I value treating others with respect and I need for my kids to be safe, so if someone hits someone else then I will be upset to some degree. But I'm upset when I see my child hitting my other child because I value treating others with respect and I need everyone to be safe-my child doesn't make me feel this way.

I can own my feelings rather than blame my child for them, it's my values and needs (and thoughts and perceptions and expectations) that determine how I feel about something I see/hear/experience.

I wouldn't have decided not to go to the indoor playground because of my child's behavior. But I probably would've said "I'm feeling pretty frustrated right now, things just aren't going the way I'd planned (and this would be true, I'd probably have had this mental plan that I'd get things done around the house and my child would be cooperative and pleasant while I worked). You seem to be having a tough time too. How can we make this day better for us, so that we can finish what needs to be done and get to the playground?"

[DevaMajka]

I'd say something like- when you do x (being generally unagreeable), I don't feel very much like going out. Help me out here! Let's find a way to work together.

No mention of not going, just that it will be much easier for me to have fun going out later, if ds is more cooperative and agreeable now.

[Mom2Joseph]

In the future I would tell her just before we were about to go. My DS has a hard time with this too. He doesn't understand the time concept enough so it makes for a horrible time for all of us.

That being said, sometimes DS asks what we are doing today. Then I list those things in order so he understands what we are doing first, second, etc.

Sounds like not going would only punish you BOTH. Why not go and have a good time?

[Jescafa]

"You're going to have to settle down before we go to the playground, do you understand? I want to go, but I can't take you if you're going to be yelling and not listening to me; it wouldn't be fair to the other families and it wouldn't be safe for you. Do you think you can settle down so that we can go and have fun in a little while?" And if that went over well, then I'd say, "OK, then let's find something that you can do while I finish up my work; that will help the time go faster for both of us," and set her up with an activity.

I mean, I leave it to others to decide if that's a threat, or punitive, or whatever, but what I like about it is that it's honest about my feelings without being all "me, me, me," it sets some boundaries, and it puts the ball in her court; gives her a little power.

[moodymaximus]

Originally Posted by sledg

I just want to share my thoughts on this.


I do get upset in response to my children's behaviors, but I do think that they aren't causing me to feel anything. What's going on is that I am having certain thoughts about their behavior that lead to my being upset, I have certain expectations that are not met and this leads to my being upset (at times I have needs that I expect them to meet through their behavior), I am understanding their behavior in certain ways that leads to my being upset.

Example: If I do not value my kids' going to sleep early in the night, or by a particular time, then if they stay up late I'm not going to be upset. If I'm a person who believes that kids will fall asleep when they're tired, and I don't mind if they stay up late-it works for me, then I'm not going to be upset if they're still awake late in the night. There are people who really don't have a problem with their kids staying up until late at night, even at young ages-they value their kids' falling asleep when they're ready rather than at a specific time.

If I value my kids' going to sleep early/by a particular time (I do, in fact), I'm likely to become frustrated when they stay awake late. I may start thinking things like "tomorrow is going to be difficult because they're not asleep yet, they aren't going to get enough sleep" or "why won't they sleep?" or "I really want to get some things done, and I can't because they're still awake. They should be asleep by now." I'm frustrated/angry/upset not because of the fact that my kids are awake late, but because I want them to be asleep earlier and they're not. OTOH, if I value my kids going to sleep early/at a certain time (which I do) and they stay up late, I can avoid becoming frustrated and angry by changing how I think about it (which I have). If I think in terms of "what's keeping them awake?" or "how can I help?" instead of "why won't they sleep?" or "they should be asleep"; if I stop thinking about how bad tomorrow will be; if I think in terms of "how can I get done what I need to get done even though they're still awake" or "it can wait until later or tomorrow" instead of "I can't get it done with them awake" then I'm not as upset by the fact that they're still up. I *am* responsible for my feelings, and I *can* choose how I respond/react to what my kids to to a very large extent.

If one of my kids hurts another of my kids, I do get angry. But if I stop and realize that at the root of that feeling of anger is fear (fear that someone will be hurt, fear that my child will grow up to be aggressive/mean, or fear that I'm doing something wrong as a mother, etc.) then I can deal with that and in turn be less angry when it happens. I can choose how to perceive and respond. And some emotion will always be there: I value treating others with respect and I need for my kids to be safe, so if someone hits someone else then I will be upset to some degree. But I'm upset when I see my child hitting my other child because I value treating others with respect and I need everyone to be safe-my child doesn't make me feel this way.

I can own my feelings rather than blame my child for them, it's my values and needs (and thoughts and perceptions and expectations) that determine how I feel about something I see/hear/experience.

I wouldn't have decided not to go to the indoor playground because of my child's behavior. But I probably would've said "I'm feeling pretty frustrated right now, things just aren't going the way I'd planned (and this would be true, I'd probably have had this mental plan that I'd get things done around the house and my child would be cooperative and pleasant while I worked). You seem to be having a tough time too. How can we make this day better for us, so that we can finish what needs to be done and get to the playground?"

thanks. i see what you are saying, and i have noticed this too--it is about my own expectations, and whenever i let go, i feel better right away. i've been actually pretty decent with this. what i have big problems with is her overall negativity. i feel it is different from my expectations. even if i tell my self that this is who she is, and she IS very emotional and sensitive, and i accept this, i still find the negativity to be very difficult to be around.

btw, i don't view tantrums as misbehaviour. this is why i feel so helpless--even if i view them as an emotional expression and i know she needs this, and i validate and empathise, i feel absolutely exhausted. i feel like i want to curl up in the bed, and i don't feel like going out at all. mentally and physicaly i'm drained.

i know it is not her "fault", and i don't want to punish her, and yet i can't handle hours of this and remain energetic and cheerful. i do try to do yoga and find moments to mediate, btw.

also, some PPs suggested that i was wrong to tell her in advance. maybe. with her it is hard to know. she might be as upset about a short notice, and then wouldn't be emotionally ready to go on time, even if she wanted to go, and then we would have been late for sure, and she'd be even more upset. also, she has a brother who really needs advance notice, or he would simply refuse to go, and i have to balance it out between the two of them. so it wasn't that i casually told her about our plans without giving it any thought. in my mind, at that time, it was the best solution. it could have worked, it had in the past. but 50% of the time it backfires too.

i also started noticing that she is really making efforts to deal with situations constructively. it is a huge progress for her, yet the day-to-day negativity is still there, sometimes all day long, sometimes days in a row, especially if dh is away. and even though i totally understand, i'm just totally exhausted and cannot shake it off easily...

so yeah, it goes all back to me...

[LilyGrace]

A few things:
1. It's not a natural consequence. Natural means it happens without interference. Logical.....maybe.

2. Her behaviour didn't make you feel/do anything. You are responsible for you, just as she is responsible for herself. Keeping that in mind helps to phrase things more constructively when opening a conversation. It's like, instead of
Your behavior makes me not want to go.
using
When there is arguing and fighting, I feel stressed. You seem stressed, too. I want to help, but I don't know how. When I get stressed out, I need a quiet place to relax, and I don't think that a play area is the place I need right now. We need to put the play place off until tomorrow.
By using *I* statements, you are taking responsibility for your reaction to the situation and it's easier to figure out what the needs of the party are - and stay calm. It's fine to be affected by someone, but I think we do need to acknowledge it as such and not blame the other person for how we feel.

There's nothing wrong with flexibility and rescheduling if that's what everyone needs. It also teaches the lesson that we do affect people in how we respond to them, and opens the door for the child to come up with solutions on her own of how to keep things calm next time.

[VisionaryMom]

I just skimmed some responses, but why does she know you're going so far in advance? I've learned with DS that he just doesn't understand "we're going this afternoon." He's starting to get "we're going to Grandma's tomorrow." If he knows earlier, I get bugged everyday about going. With playgrounds and things, I don't tell him hours beforehand because then he will act out until we go or keep yelling "I want to go to the park!"

[moodymaximus]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by LilyGrace

A few things:
1. It's not a natural consequence. Natural means it happens without interference.

without interference i would have gone for a nap. or a nice hot bath.

[Magella]

Originally Posted by moodymaximus

what i have big problems with is her overall negativity. i feel it is different from my expectations. even if i tell my self that this is who she is, and she IS very emotional and sensitive, and i accept this, i still find the negativity to be very difficult to be around.

btw, i don't view tantrums as misbehaviour. this is why i feel so helpless--even if i view them as an emotional expression and i know she needs this, and i validate and empathise, i feel absolutely exhausted. i feel like i want to curl up in the bed, and i don't feel like going out at all. mentally and physicaly i'm drained.

Me too. What I see about the fact that I find the negativity to be difficult and the tantrums draining is that my dd's temperament and mine are not a perfect fit. There's this concept of "goodness of fit" between parent and child, and dd and I don't have an ideal fit. That's hard. She's an extrovert in the sense of getting recharged by being around and interacting with others, I am an introvert in that I recharge by being alone. When things get difficult, I need to be quiet and solitary at some point to recover/recharge--and even in the middle of it all I may feel as though I need some quiet so I can think. When things get difficult, she seeks me out-she needs the interaction and connection. When the meltdown or period of intense negativity is over, I do feel drained and do want/need time to recover-I feel like I have little energy to do anything-and she's ready to go, ready to connect, ready to move on. It's hard for me to listen to lots of negativity and to meltdowns: One reason is that I'm very sensitive to noise and meltdowns are noisy (so is the negativity, many times), so I get overwhelmed and overstimulated. Another reason is that I tend to feel like I have to fix it when dd gets negative or has meltdowns, and I can't fix these things. I can listen, and I can help, but I can't fix or make it go away or make it stop, and that's hard for me. Bottom line is that when my temperament meets hers, it's just hard. And it's probably as hard for her as it is for me.

I find that it really helps to take a couple of minutes to settle myself and care for myself, after dd has had her meltdown or has had a really negative/difficult period during the day. I might not actually be able to carve out alone time, but I can take a couple of minutes (even if she's still being kind of surly) to do something that helps me relax. I try to kind of make a little "mental space" to retreat to-I could listen to a great song, I could wash dishes and just kind of get all zen about that (notice the feel of the water, just be in the moment, etc.), I could just set the kids up with something interesting and fun so that I have a couple of minutes (even one) to literally be silent and zone out, take some deep breaths and focus on relaxing my body, etc. I've found that it takes some practice to find things that help me recharge and that don't require time away or that the kids be quiet/independently enagaged, but it has helped me so much. And, of course, it's vital to take care of myself overall. I can't really ask my kid to change drastically and immediately, so I need to take care of myself so that I continue to have the reserves to help and guide her.

It also helps to plan a bit for both of our temperaments-to plan our day in ways that take into account both of our needs. So for instance dd really needs to connect after school, but that's a hard time for me b/c everyone comes home ready to talk and it gets really noisy. One way we can manage that is to come home and immediately sit down for snack at the table together. For some reason, everything is calmer when we do this so I am better able to be available to connect with dd. IIRC, there's a section of Raising Your Spirited Child that talks about matches and mismatches between the parent's temperament and the child's, and ways to manage mismatch.