how do you...

[swellmomma]

switch from "old school" punishment to gentle discipline? Please don't judge me but here is my situation. I am a single mom of 4 children. My oldest 2 are very spirited, difficult children to handle and push my buttons like there is no tomorrow. I grew up with my parents being very strict and either toed teh line or got spanked, my mom was a yeller. I find that I have turned into my mom and I hate it. I cry myself to sleep more nights than not because I want so badly to use gentle discipline, and give my children teh calm level headed momma they deserve. We have however gotten into a routine of relating to each other like this. My oldest has severe ADHD my 2nd adhd and conduct disorder. To give an example of a normal day, my ds and dd are beating teh crap out of each other before I am up, that is generally what wakes me up at 6:45 am, either that or I hear ds down int he kitchen getting into things. So I get up. The bickering continues. I tell them to get dressed while I feed the baby that they have now woken up. 2 hours of screaming, tantrums, bickering, continued fighting later they are still not dressed so I spank them and tell them once again to get dressed, and they do. Time to eat, ds doesn't want what's served, so has a tantrum, and pours his food out under the couch, on the floor or over his sisters head. I get angry send himto his room. He has a tantruma dn breaks something, another spanking. The day pretty much continues like this none stop from morning until night, tpically they finally fall asleep around 10 pm after being spanked a final time for throwing things out the window, or at each other, or cussing or what ever else it was they were doing when sent to be. WHile all this is going on throught eh day I am trying to homeschool them, prepare the meals, clean the house, entertain my 4 year old and take care of baby. They are disrespectful to me, each other and our home.

The good days are really really good, but they are few and far between, I want nothing more than to have those more often than not and to be a gentle mommy not one who has to resprt to spankings. SO how do you turn things around, and change that routine? my older kids are 8 & 9 and until my son was 6 he was undiagnosed so life was unbearable until that point. He is now medicated which helps, otherwise we would be in a worse state than we are. I love my children with everything in me, and want only the best for them including the "right" form of disciplne.

HOw to you discipline for physically fighting, stealing, lieing, back talk etc without resorting to the old stand by of spanking? Feeling like sucha failure in this category.

[Mom2Joseph]

I have no idea....I just wanted to offer you some hugs. Big Hugs!!!

I don't want to turn into my mother either, but I do at times. Sometimes I wonder if *I* should be on meds.....

Would your babes be happier at school maybe?

no ideas....just hugs mama.

[hakeber]

Wow..big hugs, your life sounds really stressful. AND you have to do this all alone? No wonder you find your breaking point is a little lower than others'. I can't imagine what that must feel like.

First, I guess you can at least safely say that spanking is NOT working for you, right? I mean you gave it a go, and proved throughly and completely that it has not made a positive impact, right?

So that's a good step, no?

I don't know how to help make the switch, but I would say perhaps a gradual transition. You may need to recognize when your boiling point is and perhaps remove them from danger (padded cells, play pens, safe areas? I dunno) and then yourself from the scene for a minute until you cool down. Sometimes, when I am trying to talk ds out of doing something I feel myself growing irrationally angry, and I know it isn't about him or the thing he's breaking or whatever, it's about me being human and needing some frickin order and peace in my life for five frickin' minutes....and I've got ONE toddler, with no "disorders" to speak of, AND I have DP, and a bevy of friends and loved ones to help...so I can only imagienhow hard it must be.

When ds is just being a kid and I just wish he'd GROW UP AND STOP ANNOYING ME, I pick him up and say, it's time for you to go play in your room now. and I bring him a snack, and I close the door, and I go into the toilet or the garden and I breathe deeply or I scream into a pillow. Then I go back into his room and I give him a hug and I TALK about it.

Nine times out of ten, when ds gets a "time out" it's because *I* or my DP need a time out, or I'm going to scream at him, or hit him, or I don't know what if I don't get him away from me now.

How old are your kids?

Can you keep them apart from each other and in their rooms with baby gates or say locked kitchen doors before you get up?

Is there anyway you could set an alarm and pre-empt their boredom induced Death matches by waking THEM up at the crack of dawn and getting them some breakfast and engaging them in an activity BEFORE they have the chance to wreak havoc on your house and eachother?

Maybe try a more organzied schedule (I know, it's a dirty word, for me too) but I think schedules work really well. I know with my ADHD kids that I teach, if my lessons are more free floating they go NUTS, whereas if I have every minute planned to the minute they are so engaged and having so much fun they seem like totally normal kids. It's not my comfort zone to be Miss Planny-Mcplanner, but I feel like a MUCH better leader for my students who need that sort of structure, when I do.

What if for example, you woke up DS first, got him dressed, had him come down and help pick out the breakfast, then went and woke up DD and had her come down and eat breakfast while you woke up the baby. Then you took them to do something outside of the house, a trip to the library, or a museum, OR you planned a project for them, something sciencey and discovery, or something destructive and dirty. What would that look like for you?

I think the first step to switching will be eliminating a bad start to the day, and building a structure that they can participate in, ya know?

I think the best thing you can do is to stop beating yourself up at night. You are a human being and you are doing the best you can under very hard circumstances. If you feel guilty about this, what good does it do other than harbor negative feelings that will just make you more and more prone to snapping even faster. Try to fill your heart with positive feelings. Focus on all the good things you've done, all the great moments, and more likely than not those positive thoughts will lead to more positve zen like feelings in your heart and you will be better able to handle the chaos of parenthood (especially SINGLE-parenthood) with that calm, level-headed, cool and collected mama personality you wish you had.

[LilyGrace]

Take it hour by hour. It's the most I could do at the beginning. "Okay, I had 2 good hours today. That's better than none!" And slowly, slowly, finding our way and what works.
I think it's like working out at the gym. In the beginning, you put all your energy in and are exhausted by the end of an hour long class. Eventually, you build up strength and stamina and can do those same beginning exercises all day if you want. They're easy.
If you through all your energy into GD and finding anything/everything that works for just one hour, one conflict, or one problem a day - in the beginning, it feels tough. But it builds up before you know it.

One other thing - I kept a journal. I could get so mad at myself for not handling things the way I wanted to. A journal gave me the opportunity to rewrite the ending. I'd write down everything that happened, and write how I wanted to react. Putting it into words put it into my mind better for next time.

[hakeber]

sorry, I just read your sig line...so they are what, 10, 9, 5 and one?

I definitely think the older two are old enough that they can start taking care of themselves a bit more, choose their own breakfasts, and help out a bit with the care of their younger siblings.

I think I've had a hard time followingwhich child is which.

Also, on the spanking for breaking stuff...I think perhaps that's a bit of a strange punishment. I mean if you broke something in a store either they would absorb it because it was their fault in the way it was displayed, or you would pay for it because it was your fault...but they wouldn't hit you, would they?

I think it makes more sense to talk about why it got broken, was it on purpose or was it a mistake, could it be avoided in the future by removing breakable things from reach, or being more careful? Should you have to pay for it? Should they have to pay for it, or should you both split the cost?

[Wolfcat]

Here are my suggestions:

If they are beating each other up, let them. I know it sounds mean, but we are talking about the older kids. They need to learn to work it out. If they come to you for help, or when they are done, sit them both down and ask them how they felt when the other was treating them like that and how they could have worked it out better. Make sure they both get to talk. They might enjoy some role play about this also.

If your DS is getting into things, is it a life-or-death or safety situation? If not, ignore him, but have him clean up any messes later.

If your kids don't leave to go to school, is it that important for them to get dressed? Obviously, they shouldn't be allowed to do things they enjoy unless they are dressed, but I'm asking if the anger/spanking is worth it if they have chosen not to do so.

Since your DS frequently does not want what is served, recruit him to make breakfast: cereal, toast, toaster waffles, etc. are likely within his capability (with or without supervision). This will give him a) something to do and b) the control that he seems to be looking for. If he pours out his food, then give him a causal punishment: he has to clean it up, he has to help his sister take a bath or change clothes, etc. If he breaks something: he has to pay for it, etc. (BTW, I have long since removed anything breakable that I value, even though my DS is only 17 mo. If he does break/ruin something, I think to myself "well, I shouldn't have had THAT where he could reach it")

What do they throw out the window? Your stuff or theirs? If it's theirs, they should lose it, since they threw it away (give it to charity, or trash or store it). If it is yours, they have to go get it and fix/clean it or replace it.

The cussing, I'm guessing, is partially a modeled behavior (they had to learn it from somewhere), so model non-cussing behavior: ("I shouldn't have said *&^$; I'm sorry. I could have said 'crap/shoot/darn' instead.")

Check out from your library some of the GD books on the stickied thread. I like "Kids are Worth It" and "The Emotional Life of a Toddler". They explain how a lot of "bad" behavior is an inability to be able to express new or strong emotions, like frustration. They also give good examples of how to deal with the child (no matter what age) to help them learn to express their emotions without destruction or disrespect to others.

Good luck, & I hope this helps.

[swellmomma]

Originally Posted by Mom2Joseph

I have no idea....I just wanted to offer you some hugs. Big Hugs!!!

I don't want to turn into my mother either, but I do at times. Sometimes I wonder if *I* should be on meds.....

Would your babes be happier at school maybe?

no ideas....just hugs mama.

They were in school previously. I pulled them because they were struggling so much. Ds was being passed into grade 3 even though he could barely do early 1st grade work and talked about wanting to kill himself. DD spent every day of 1st grae in detention and had a suspension. They are doing much better now that they are home and academics are really coming along, it's just not waht i envisioned things to be when I planned on having kids.

[swellmomma]

Originally Posted by hakeber

sorry, I just read your sig line...so they are what, 10, 9, 5 and one?

I definitely think the older two are old enough that they can start taking care of themselves a bit more, choose their own breakfasts, and help out a bit with the care of their younger siblings.

I think I've had a hard time followingwhich child is which.

Also, on the spanking for breaking stuff...I think perhaps that's a bit of a strange punishment. I mean if you broke something in a store either they would absorb it because it was their fault in the way it was displayed, or you would pay for it because it was your fault...but they wouldn't hit you, would they?

I think it makes more sense to talk about why it got broken, was it on purpose or was it a mistake, could it be avoided in the future by removing breakable things from reach, or being more careful? Should you have to pay for it? Should they have to pay for it, or should you both split the cost?

They are 9, 8 4 and 2 months

The spanking for breaking something was for example one day they broke both bottme dresser drawers on my dresser, the closet door and the changing table all from their climbing and jumping despite me repeatedly removing them and locking the bedroom door(my 9 year old just picks the lock). By the time they broke the change table(my first real one after 4 kids) I snapped, so no it is not a spanking everytime they break something, and never if it is accidental. But when my room is in shambles due to willful disobedience I have a harder time remaining logical and gentle.

[swellmomma]

Originally Posted by Wolfcat

Here are my suggestions:

If they are beating each other up, let them. I know it sounds mean, but we are talking about the older kids. They need to learn to work it out. If they come to you for help, or when they are done, sit them both down and ask them how they felt when the other was treating them like that and how they could have worked it out better. Make sure they both get to talk. They might enjoy some role play about this also.

If your DS is getting into things, is it a life-or-death or safety situation? If not, ignore him, but have him clean up any messes later.

If your kids don't leave to go to school, is it that important for them to get dressed? Obviously, they shouldn't be allowed to do things they enjoy unless they are dressed, but I'm asking if the anger/spanking is worth it if they have chosen not to do so.

Since your DS frequently does not want what is served, recruit him to make breakfast: cereal, toast, toaster waffles, etc. are likely within his capability (with or without supervision). This will give him a) something to do and b) the control that he seems to be looking for. If he pours out his food, then give him a causal punishment: he has to clean it up, he has to help his sister take a bath or change clothes, etc. If he breaks something: he has to pay for it, etc. (BTW, I have long since removed anything breakable that I value, even though my DS is only 17 mo. If he does break/ruin something, I think to myself "well, I shouldn't have had THAT where he could reach it")

What do they throw out the window? Your stuff or theirs? If it's theirs, they should lose it, since they threw it away (give it to charity, or trash or store it). If it is yours, they have to go get it and fix/clean it or replace it.

The cussing, I'm guessing, is partially a modeled behavior (they had to learn it from somewhere), so model non-cussing behavior: ("I shouldn't have said *&^$; I'm sorry. I could have said 'crap/shoot/darn' instead.")

Check out from your library some of the GD books on the stickied thread. I like "Kids are Worth It" and "The Emotional Life of a Toddler". They explain how a lot of "bad" behavior is an inability to be able to express new or strong emotions, like frustration. They also give good examples of how to deal with the child (no matter what age) to help them learn to express their emotions without destruction or disrespect to others.

Good luck, & I hope this helps.

Thank you, I will check out those books for sure. TO answer your questions. When my son gets into the stuff int eh kitchen sometimes it is life or death (trying to use the stove) but most of the time it is wastag. I can only afford so much for groceries each month, it is a tight budget. When I come down stairs and see he has dumped an entire bag of sugar, all the cereal, hot cocoa mix, cake mix etc in a pile because he wanted to make a mountain for his dinosaurs it's not a good thing. Yes he is 9 but emotionally is closer to 7 and until his am meds kick in he has no impulse control. A normal 9 year old gets a cup out of the cupboard to get a drink. He will take a cup and pee in it first thing in the am if I don't direct him to the bathroom.

I think I am going to set and alarm to get up before them(yikes that suck when I am up until 1 am witht eh baby), and get his meds into him before he is fully awake, Maybe that will help eliminate some of this nonsense and keep our day a little calmer.

The getting dressed is a must. They know I don't care if they put on clothes or jammies, but they prefer to sleep int eh nude and I will not allow them to run around the house at 8 & 9 years old in the nude.
I mentioned above the stuff they break is not breakable tings per se, it is furniture, holes in walls etc. That one will take longer to work through. Stuff out the window, knives fromthe kitchen, my collectables from my room, clothes, toys, bedding, basicaly anything he can get his hands on. I don't cuss usually and do apologize when it comes out, which is usually if I have gotten hurt(such as hot grease burnig my eyelid the other night while cooking dinner). They learned it when they were in daycare previously before our homeschooling/sahm days and I have been working to change it ever since.

They really are great kids over all and one on one are wonderful. WHat ends up happening is one pushes my buttons so I try to walk away to calm down and the next starts in and backa nd forth it goes. Today I have decided my goal is tone of voice. SO for today I refuse to speak above a hushed tone and see what happens. Maybe I am expecting too much trying to change it all at once. Maybe I should just resolve myself tot he fact that my 9 year old is into more stuff than my 4 year old and that will likely never change. When he was younger he was a runner, taking off in teh middle of the night even, set fires, smeared poop etc. We have gotten past all that and he no longer does those things, so I know his behaviours can be changed, albeit slowly.

Funny how before kids I have this notion of what kind of a parent I would be, and the things I would never say or do, only to find myself being opposite of that in many ways. Both good and bad (I was also one who said never co-sleep, or cloth diaper, or EC too).

Time to reserve some of those books fromt eh library and start reading.

Thank you everyone for your help, I want so much to change the patterns around here.

[laoxinat]

One thing that might help IF you can pull it off is to be extremely mindful of the effect your reactions have. It sounds like they are very aware of the effect their behavior has and are overwhelmed by their own "power". Someone once told me I was giving my kids a map to where my goat was tied up . Ooops! I know this is a tall order, but just that one change made a huge difference for us. When I could do it. HTHs!!!

[swellmomma]

Originally Posted by laoxinat

One thing that might help IF you can pull it off is to be extremely mindful of the effect your reactions have. It sounds like they are very aware of the effect their behavior has and are overwhelmed by their own "power". Someone once told me I was giving my kids a map to where my goat was tied up . Ooops! I know this is a tall order, but just that one change made a huge difference for us. When I could do it. HTHs!!!

I think you mi be on to something there! Hmmm now to figure out how to turn off my reactions to those things, that is more difficult

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

First and foremost, congratulations for wanting to change!!!!

As with all changes, its not a simple thing like "do X rather than Y". You need to look at the whole situation and break it down into several categories.

Because your children are old enough to understand what is happening and things are changing, you need to involve them in this process. Tell them what YOU will do and what you need THEM to do to help / make it possible. E.g. YOU want to have a peaceful home and not spank, and THEY need to follow directions or whatever the first priority is.

As pp have suggested, figure out if there is stuff that you are currently punishing for that really isn't that big a deal and/or there are natural consequences for. Let those go. For example, if they ruin things that are theirs, they do without.

Second, look at those things that are driving you most nuts and figure out how to prevent them. Your kids are clearly not at the point that they will avoid things that cause problems on their own -- they have shown that. So, your FIRST priority is to prevent them, not punish after the fact. SInce you are starting at a pretty extreme place, some of your preventions might not be as "gentle" as others here on the boards. But you will get there, it just takes time. So, lock the cupboards or fridge or entire kitchen if you need to. Get up earlier to supervise. Insist that your children stay in your sight so they can't damage things. Put all your precious things away for a bit. Whatever it takes for the short term.

Next, make sure you are meeting their AND YOUR basic needs for good food, enough sleep and enough fresh air / vigorous excercise. Given the energetic way your kids seem to ineract with the world, it would seem like a run around the park (for example) would be a good way to start the day. If you are able, what about sports classes at the Y or similar (they have financial aid)? Get the energy out in a harmless way so it doesn't come out in a negative way.

Eliminate all examples of behaviour you don't want. They hit each other because you model hitting, for example (though there is probably more involved than just that, I know). If you need to change their media habits so they see better examples, do that.

And finally, remember that it will probably take a long time of baby steps to get there, and it might get worse before it gets better. Your children are used to do "bad" things to get your attention. It will take a while before they unlearn that and learn a new way to get your attention. Remain firm in your resolve, post here often, find a buddy to take the journey with you (real life or through PM here). It is hard for most of us to keep to our resolve to be gentle and calm with fewer kids and fewer challenges and far more resources than you have. Hang in there and keep trying!!!

[Kessed]

I would also recommend "Playful Parenting". It's a great book about how to redirect destructive energy into constructive. You aren't going to stop your children from 'doing things' - but if you can get those things to be ones which are acceptable, then you all win.

[swellmomma]

I do keep the kids active, but doing someting phsycial to start our day would likely do us all a world of good. They are currently in gymnastics, and dd takes dance, they start swimming after xmas again. Walking to the park is tough in our winters(none of us like -30 temps) but perhaps something here, a video or dance around or something, I'll have to think on it but I think that would be something easy to incorporate. I will check out that playful parenting book too, it sounds exactly like what I need right now. MEdia habits aren't an issue, no tv in this house, they watch videos like veggie tales, and disney flicks, no internet for them just their cd-rom games, I decide what music they listen to etc. It's easier to do all that now that we are home and they are not in daycare/dayhomes etc.

It's weird because for the first couple years of their life of course I never speanked. Then when my oldest was almost 4 and still doing these things my mom said it was time to start spanking etc, so I started, and it seems to have just built up from there. SO half their life was gentlish(I still yelled), and half was corporal punishment(though for my 4 year old it's been only the last 6 months or so that he has been spanked ever), so I am hoping that it will be easier to come back around to gentle discipline since we have not always used it. man this parenting thing is hard to get right

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by swellmomma

They are 9, 8 4 and 2 months

The spanking for breaking something was for example one day they broke both bottme dresser drawers on my dresser, the closet door and the changing table all from their climbing and jumping despite me repeatedly removing them and locking the bedroom door(my 9 year old just picks the lock). By the time they broke the change table(my first real one after 4 kids) I snapped, so no it is not a spanking everytime they break something, and never if it is accidental. But when my room is in shambles due to willful disobedience I have a harder time remaining logical and gentle.

Oh derr...I'm so into planning for the 2008 school year, I was already THERE...sorry.

I can totally understand not being able to handle the willfull destruction thing. I can't imagine that phase yet, and I bet it's really hard. You can do this, though. There are some moms here with some amazing advice...hang in there, Mama. You're only human.

[ruhbehka]

Three books that I think might be really helpful for you:

The Secret of Parenting (Anthony Wolfe)
Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline (Becky Bailey)
How to talk so that kids will listen and how to listen so that kids will talk

The first book is on the stricter end of GD, but I think it's a really good book for families with lots of kids, or minimal partner support, or who are coming from a more chaotic general state and are desperately seeking sanity!

The second book is helpful in teaching your kids how to communicate better, and for learning to discipline your own reactions before you discipline your kids.

The third book is really, really helpful for talking with school-aged kids (and younger) and for making your life generally less filled with conflict.

Of the three books, I think you'll find the last one MOST helpful. It will give you easy strategies for dealing with things like the sugar being dumped out, the fighting, etc. And it's in comic book form.

[laoxinat]

Also, Brandy, I highly recommend Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. It is by Naomi Aldort, and it's a gem! Not so much a situation-based solution guide, like How To Talk, which I also highly recommend, as it is a method of examining our own feelings and triggers and respecting our kids boundaries. I like how she points out that even though we may feel like we are really knocking ourselves out to be "good" moms, if our kiddo FEELS a lack, something needs to change.
Another very helpful tool, which is included in HTT is the family meeting. This is also used in many Adler-based parenting books, such as Parent Effectiveness Training (also excellent). This is especially important in a single mama family, because it is so easy to end up on total overwhelm. And while they do not necessarily need to author and approve all the family rules, they must be a part of making them. They will be much more cooperative if given some responsibilty in setting the boundaries. HTH.

[ktmama]

You've gotten a lot of good suggestions here. I want to add:

1. Using music to wake up to - transition from morning to lunch - get ready for bed to. Use the same songs every day. Have your nine year old make up a simple dance or actions to teach the younger kids. Sounds hokey, maybe, but music is a GREAT calmer and transitioner!

2. Develop your oldest into a family leader (not a father figure, but a leader) by enlisting his help in creating a positive family environment. Ask him his opinions and ideas and help his institute at least one of them. Take him seriously. I know he has his challenges and this might not be developmentally appropriate for him, but he may be able to rise to it too!

3. Even though your kids are homeschooled, they are still entitled to school-based services and activities. What can the district or a homeschooling group do for you in terms of one-on-one tutoring, counseling, mentoring or extra-curriculars?

4. Think about hooking your two oldest kids up with mentors from a local non-profit (if you have that available). Other positive parent-figures will really help enforce your positive modeling.

Good luck mama!

[velcromom]

I switched with the help of Haim Ginott's book "Between Parent and Child". It is so helpful cuz it actually gives examples of what/how to say what you need to. You can use the examples until it starts to come naturally. The "How to Listen..." book is based on the same principles but I think BP&C is more basic and easier to start with.

[swellmomma]

Keep the ideas coming ladies. I am on my way to library to find a couple of those books now, if I find them working well I'll hit the bookstore to buy them. I like the idea of using music. I doubt I'll start the clean up song lol BUt I am thinking of maybe turnig on classical music for the family to listen to while we gt up, dressed, eat breakfast etc. Hmm gotta think on that one, but I may just try it.

laoxinat YOu are right about what the child FEELS as opposed to what is. I know growing up my parents thought they lavished love on us, but I never felt and still don't. THey showed it by buying stuff, I wanted them to listen to me, and talk to me and take me seriously etc. It has taken 30 years for my mom to finally realize what I have been tellng her all this time(she always got offended thinking I was saying she didn't love me). I don't want my kids to feel that way, nor do Iw ant it to take 30 years for me to wake up and figure it out. I am hoping that using GD is going to be a step in the right direction to show them just how much they are loved/cherished kwim