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Good Information Needed for the Locker Room Debate - Page 2

post #21 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthmama369 View Post
My husband is intact. He tells me that guys NEVER checked each other out in the gym locker room,
When I was in highs school and college, I think some guys do notice, but do it very casually or surreptitiously... I know I did...not for circ status, but "size."
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthmama369 View Post
...and if they did, they certainly didn't admit it to anyone.
You're certainly correct about that also. Anybody doing that would have been accused of being "queer," and certainly not something to help your reputation with the girls...
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthmama369 View Post
So no, he never once got teased about being intact and is inclined to think that's a myth promoted by those with an agenda toward RIC.
I was never teased by anyone...and agree that it is mostly a myth...
post #22 of 78
To the OP:

Even IF feeling different was an issue (which it probably won't be), we live in a very mobile society. I'm not sure where you live, but are you sure your famliy will stay there? Even if you do, you won't know if your son might go to college in a place where most of the male students are intact. Or maybe he will move to a state or a country where most males are intact. Unless he stays in the place where you are currently living, who is to say whether he will be in the minority or the majority when he's older?
post #23 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by DklovesMkandJK View Post


both were born in the circ happy 80s and live in'soggy' PA
Oh, yeah, one bro born 1976, one 1983, in KY-- one of the top 2 highest circ'ing states in the nation- about 85%
post #24 of 78
I'm not sure the circ rate where you are, but what worked with my husband was to point out that in 2005 (the most recent stat I could find) only 9% of the boys in Ontario were circumcised. If anyone was going to look different it would be the cut boys not the intact boys.
post #25 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by thixle View Post
I know lots of girls that felt "different" because they had or didn't have boobs... but none of their parents surgically altered them as children.
Except, I believe, the Olsen twins. Fat lot of good THAT did them.
post #26 of 78
At one point my sons were teased BECAUSE they were identical twins! We didn't surgically alter one of them to look different, or send on to a different school. Instead, we taught them how to deal with bullies and teasing.

Once you start performing surgery on your baby to make him "fit in", where does it stop?

BTW, my sons are 13 years old, and are appalled at the idea of infant circumcision. They have no idea of their friends are circumcised or not - because they don't look. If anyone DID comment, they would ask the other person why he was looking at my son's penis. One of my boys said "It's not like we wander around with our pants down, saying "Hey, look at my penis!""
post #27 of 78
As some of you know, I posted on/off here about my DH arguing to get our DS circed. The "locker room" argument was DH's biggest "fear" of not circing. DS is 15 mo now and not circed. The arguments ended the night Dave (my DH) AGAIN brought up about how the ONE kid in his class that wasn't circed got teased, tortured and ridiculed all the time. In this argument Dave brought up all of this poor kid's other issues, up to and including: being fat, wearing glasses, having bad acne and being named Stacy. I responded with, "Do you suppose any of those are reasons why he got teased?"

While I feel bad for Stacy and believe kids should never tease, the point here is that kids will find something to tease over. We have to teach them resiliency and confidence in who they are. Teasers stop when they realize the "victim" isn't game.
post #28 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama_ani View Post
I'm not sure the circ rate where you are, but what worked with my husband was to point out that in 2005 (the most recent stat I could find) only 9% of the boys in Ontario were circumcised. If anyone was going to look different it would be the cut boys not the intact boys.
How can I find out what the stats are for where I live? I'm outside of Philly. Incidentally, I asked my neighbor, a pediatrician, how often she sees uncirc'd boys. She said she sees uncirc'd boys about 30% of the time. She also said I'd have to retract my son rather than let him do it on his own when he's a bit older. I hadn't read too much about that issue before chatting with her but it sounded odd to me so I did a little research and know that she was incorrect. It's amazing to me how peds can be so misinformed!

Ok, so about my dh. He's totally not a macho guy and is super supportive of all things AP, natural, etc. I'm actually not entirely sure what his big beef is with this issue, but he has brought up the locker room issue before which is why I posted the question in the first place. Now that I've read some responses it really does seem like a no brainer - duh, of course boys don't look at each other like that, particularly after puberty.

I read the Vincent article and will try to approach it from that stance. I've also moved the Penn and Teller video up to the top of my Netflix queue.

Here's the interesting thing - dh's dad IS NOT circ'd. I wonder if that's what the big issue really is. I need to talk about it more with him - I've been bombarding him with information rather than asking him specifically why he's opposed.

Of course there's also the religious issue (I'm Jewish and dh's father is as well, although he was raised in an Evangelical Christian house - wild story, lol) but I've seen a lot of the Jews against Circ sites and they've absolutely strengthened my resolve.
post #29 of 78
Will anecdotal evidence help? Because my brothers (twins) are almost 15 and play every violent school sport there is; football, lacrosse, wrestling, etc... They also live in a conservative suburb in the midwest and are intact. They are totally open to talking about it and have NEVER had anyone give them crap about it. They mentioned to my mom that one other guy on some team was uncut, so it is noticed at times, but not an issue in this day and age. That means it will LESS of an issue when our babes are in locker rooms.

I, on the other hand, was horribly teased in school. What kind of surgery could I have had for being mocked for: being a good reader, having long hair, being chubby, having a brother that died at age 2.5 (seriously, these are things I was actually teased about.) Good thing the cure for all that crap was SELF ESTEEM!

Of course, my kids homeschool, so the locker room thing is fairly moot...
post #30 of 78
This is a huge concern for my DH as well. There were two boys in my class who were circ'd (that anybody knew of anyway) and they were teased and thought of as "freaks". I remember my friends saying things about how gross they are and they would never date them... DH and I went to the same school. Also, a guy in DH's grade was teased so much that he had himself circ'd in 11th grade. (This is what has contributed to his concern and it was a big hurdle for me as well)

I tell DH that more and more boys are intact these days, we will probably home school anyway, kids don't shower together that much anymore & oh well if he gets teased, if it's not about his penis it'll be about something else.

post #31 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadkitty View Post
having a brother that died at age 2.5 (seriously, these are things I was actually teased about.) Good thing the cure for all that crap was SELF ESTEEM!

Of course, my kids homeschool, so the locker room thing is fairly moot...
My mom was 9 when her mom died and kids actually said "ha-ha, your mom died"
post #32 of 78
My DH grew up as a semi-circ . . . Talk about different! He was different from everyone! But I asked him if he ever felt sad that he had a foreskin . . . He was like "Why would I be naked around other dudes that weren't in my family?" I really think, if you really think about it, that the locker room thing is a myth . . . When are today's boys ever around a bunch of other boys without their underwear on?

Anyway, I pretty much always will be a beautiful hippie mama who hangs out with other beautiful hippie mamas, so DS will probably be around mostly intact boys until he is 18. And by then, I hope to have instilled in him an understanding and respect for the foreskin that will last him his whole life!

Plus I agree with PPs . . . More and more mamas are making the choice to leave their sons intact now.

I would think a WAY bigger risk than a boy maybe feeling different if he somehow winds up in a Circ club sometime in the future, is the risk of a Mother who is convinced to Circ by her DH definitely feeling sad in Circ debates on Mommy Boards for the rest of her Mommy Board days.

HTH!

ETA: Also, if a boy feels so bad about having a sexy foreskin that he decides to have himself circed, well he always will have that option and it will be fully his choice. I think WAY not enough attention is paid to the very real possibility that a boy will wish he was Intact, and while he can restore, it is not the same as having a true choice to not have had the alteration in the first place, kwim? I know my brother feels straight robbed . . .
post #33 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood
I tell DH that more and more boys are circ'd these days
I think what you meant to say is that more and more boys are left intact these days, right?

Quote:
My mom was 9 when her mom died and kids actually said "ha-ha, your mom died"
I don't even know what to say about kids who would actually *taunt* someone about a parent or sibling dying! What could they be thinking? How could they be so hurtful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx
while he can restore, it is not the same as having a true choice to not have had the alteration in the first place, kwim?
It's not the same at all, since half of the properties that are lost when a boy is circ'd can never be restored.
post #34 of 78
1) It's MUCH more common now that insurance isn't paying for it!

2) Boys DO NOT want to be caught looking at someone else's penis. Much less commenting on it.

I mean, all your son would have to say is "Why are you looking at my penis ANYWAY?" and it'd be all over...

I don't get it!
post #35 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer View Post
I think what you meant to say is that more and more boys are left intact these days, right?
Oh yeah! Whoops!!
post #36 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate's Mommy View Post
To the OP:

Even IF feeling different was an issue (which it probably won't be), we live in a very mobile society. I'm not sure where you live, but are you sure your famliy will stay there? Even if you do, you won't know if your son might go to college in a place where most of the male students are intact. Or maybe he will move to a state or a country where most males are intact. Unless he stays in the place where you are currently living, who is to say whether he will be in the minority or the majority when he's older?
This is a good point. This site shows the statistics by state, but PA has no data.

Note the west coast statistics, pretty much what I'd expect. The last stat I could find for California was 21% of males ARE circumcised, which means that 79% are INTACT! The midwest is notoriously circ-happy & the South is right behind.
So, if you moved to the west coast, your son would be in the minority if he was circed. The rates are dropping dramatically here in PA, especially since the AAP no longer recommends it.

Congrats on your boy & glad to see that you're leaning towards keeping him intact.
post #37 of 78
Thread Starter 
Bump...
The conversation came back up tonight at dinner. In a crowded restaurant. It got a bit heated.

Like I said before, he is and his dad isn't. I hadn't asked him about it specifically until now...how it made him feel and he said it totally weirded him out his whole life that he was different. Of course, his dad isn't the kind of guy who'd be comfortable talking about things like this with his son so they never discussed it and that made it ever weirder.


So, there's that.

And, according to him guys do look at each other in the locker room when they're kids and guys who don't admit it are perhaps threatened by being thought of as homosexual.

We're still at a standstill. The pregnancy is halfway over. I'm not one of those women who'd ever give some sort of ultimatum about this. I've come across posts where women say they'd divorce their husbands if they push circ. While I feel strongly about it I also feel strongly about keeping my marriage intact.

I just don't know where this is going to go and it's making me worry...
post #38 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz View Post
I also feel strongly about keeping my marriage intact.

I just don't know where this is going to go and it's making me worry...
Just imagine the resentment you will feel toward your DH when you have deep regrets about letting him convince you it was okay to slice up your perfect baby. My marriage would be over at that point because I don't think I could live with someone that feels it's okay to chop off a perfectly normal part of their child's sexual organs for no reason..It is not your or your DH's choice to decide for your son what his sex life will be like in the future. It's his choice. . His body...his choice. End of discussion
post #39 of 78
You don't have to divorce your husband or give him an ultimatum.

But you also don't have to allow your son to be circ'd.
post #40 of 78
Thread Starter 
I understand where you're coming from, but this is my marriage we're talking about. Obviously we'll get to a point where we have to decide and this is what's worrying me. Who caves? On my side of the coin, it's my boy and I don't want anyone cutting his penis. Period. On his side it's his boy AND HIS PENIS and being as how he has a a penis already and is happy with how his turned out he probably feels as though he has a bit more understanding of this whole issue.

It sort of reminds me of how some of us mothers roll our eyes at men when they make comments about abortions or put their two cents into birthing processes. Perhaps that's a far-reaching analogy but it just occured to me that there is a slight similarity.

Anyhow, back to Fyrestorm's comment. I know I can vouch for my husband that this is something he isn't taking lightly and it's not as overly simple as him feeling like it's ok to chop off someone's body part.

I came here hoping to find some advice on how I might better present my case. I'm truly not all that interested in hearing how some of you would leave your husband if he wouldn't change his stance. Just looking for some sound support here....
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