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Good Information Needed for the Locker Room Debate - Page 3

post #41 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz View Post
I understand where you're coming from, but this is my marriage we're talking about. Obviously we'll get to a point where we have to decide and this is what's worrying me. Who caves? On my side of the coin, it's my boy and I don't want anyone cutting his penis. Period. On his side it's his boy AND HIS PENIS and being as how he has a a penis already and is happy with how his turned out he probably feels as though he has a bit more understanding of this whole issue.


This is the whole point...it's NOT your penis and it's NOT your DH's penis...it's your SON's penis.

What if your mother didn't think you should have your labia? Do you or your DH believe that it would have been okay to remove it from you? Same thing. If you choose to have labiaplasty as an adult...good for you...but it's ypur body. It should be your choice.
post #42 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz View Post
Bump...
The conversation came back up tonight at dinner. In a crowded restaurant. It got a bit heated.

Like I said before, he is and his dad isn't. I hadn't asked him about it specifically until now...how it made him feel and he said it totally weirded him out his whole life that he was different. Of course, his dad isn't the kind of guy who'd be comfortable talking about things like this with his son so they never discussed it and that made it ever weirder.
I'm confused. So does that mean he hated being circ'd his whole life? If that's the case, then why is he adamant about getting his son circ'd?
post #43 of 78
It's also your child we're talking about.

A person whose penis has been altered is the worst person to decide if the child's penis should be altered. He's biased. He's lost his perspective. He's desperate to believe that he's alright. That nothing bad was done to him. He's desperate to justify it. He has no idea what it would be like to have a foreskin. His information is tragically incomplete. You, on the other hand, can step back and look at the question objectively and learn about intact and circ'd penises. When it comes right down to it the only person who has the right to decide whether or not your son's penis is altered is YOUR SON.

When it comes to abortion and birthing choices it's the woman's body so it's the woman who has the right to make the decision. When it comes to circumcision it's not the mother's body or the father's body that is involved. It is only the child's body that is involved. Neither the mother nor the father has the right to permanently remove a healthy body part.

Please read this http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html
post #44 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyrestorm View Post
This is the whole point...it's NOT your penis and it's NOT your DH's penis...it's your SON's penis.

What if your mother didn't think you should have your labia? Do you or your DH believe that it would have been okay to remove it from you? Same thing. If you choose to have labiaplasty as an adult...good for you...but it's ypur body. It should be your choice.
Sounds like you're trying to convince me. I'm convinced. It's my husband who needs convincing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papai
I'm confused. So does that mean he hated being circ'd his whole life? If that's the case, then why is he adamant about getting his son circ'd?
No, not at all. It really bothered him that his did not look like his dad's. So, it's the idea of looking different than other boys in general but even more so, the idea that son and father will not look the same since that exact same issue had such a huge impact on him growing up.
post #45 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz View Post
Sounds like you're trying to convince me. I'm convinced. It's my husband who needs convincing.

I am trying to convince you...you are the one who has to sign the papers...the final decision will be yours...do you let your DH's insecurity allow you to hurt your son or not? Do you protect your son or not?
post #46 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz
Sounds like you're trying to convince me. I'm convinced. It's my husband who needs convincing.
I think you're missing Fyrestorm's point. We know that you don't want to have your baby circ'd. But at the same time you seem to think it might be okay to back down and let your husband have his way. Fyrestorm's point is that, no matter what you or your husband think about whether or not a foreskin should be cut off, no one has the right to make that decision for your son.
post #47 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer View Post
It's also your child we're talking about.

A person whose penis has been altered is the worst person to decide if the child's penis should be altered. He's biased. He's lost his perspective. He's desperate to believe that he's alright. That nothing bad was done to him. He's desperate to justify it. He has no idea what it would be like to have a foreskin. His information is tragically incomplete. You, on the other hand, can step back and look at the question objectively and learn about intact and circ'd penises. When it comes right down to it the only person who has the right to decide whether or not your son's penis is altered is YOUR SON.

When it comes to abortion and birthing choices it's the woman's body so it's the woman who has the right to make the decision. When it comes to circumcision it's not the mother's body or the father's body that is involved. It is only the child's body that is involved. Neither the mother nor the father has the right to permanently remove a healthy body part.

Please read this http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html

I'm not so sure I agree with all of this. Can I really be objective?? This is my son we're talking about, not some random guy. While I do feel secure on a mental level, it really comes down to what's in my heart.
I can analyze my husband but I'm not so sure I truly believe that he's secretly unhappy he was circ'd or that he's trying to justify anything. I think a penis is as important to a man as anything on a woman's body is to her. For me, perhaps it's my breasts. Either way, I don't think his information is any less complete since I've told him all I know about the subject.

I so wish this were as simple as when I said I thought we should practice cosleeping or extended nursing or any of the other stuff we so readily agreed upon before having our first. But it's not turning out to be...

And just to play devil's advocate I'm not so sure those who oppose abortions would agree that it's the mother's body in question when you're talking about aborting. Not that I agree with that...I'm just saying.

I truly don't think it's as simple as it's the child and no one has a say except for the child. I think parents make decisions for their children's body ON BEHALF of the child all the time. I mean, god forbid something horrible happens where a child faces a possible amputation. Maybe it's a leg. Maybe it's a choice. If the child isn't old enough to make that monumental decision doesn't a parent have to do it for them??

Again, this is so very important to me and talking with my husband tonight only made me feel more passionate about my stance. I just want him to see it the same way I do and hope that eventually he will...
post #48 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer View Post
I think you're missing Fyrestorm's point. We know that you don't want to have your baby circ'd. But at the same time you seem to think it might be okay to back down and let your husband have his way. Fyrestorm's point is that, no matter what you or your husband think about whether or not a foreskin should be cut off, no one has the right to make that decision for your son.
On the contrary, I DO NOT think it's ok to back down. But I think it's safe to say some decision has to be made before he's born, no?
post #49 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz View Post
I truly don't think it's as simple as it's the child and no one has a say except for the child. I think parents make decisions for their children's body ON BEHALF of the child all the time. I mean, god forbid something horrible happens where a child faces a possible amputation. Maybe it's a leg. Maybe it's a choice. If the child isn't old enough to make that monumental decision doesn't a parent have to do it for them??
But we are not talking about a life saving heath care decision. We are talking about elective cosmetic surgery on an infant. A cosmetic surgery that will permanently alter your son's sexual function.
post #50 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz View Post
On the contrary, I DO NOT think it's ok to back down. But I think it's safe to say some decision has to be made before he's born, no?
No ..no decision has to be made...your son can make that decision when he turns 18 and can make his own decisions.

Default is do nothing....no decision needed.
post #51 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz
Can I really be objective?? This is my son we're talking about, not some random guy.
As far as the general question of whether or not circ is a good idea, you can be more objective than someone who has been circ'd. Once you've determined whether or not circ is a good idea, it shouldn't make a difference whether it's your son you're applying the information to or a random male. If it's a bad idea it's a bad idea.

Quote:
I think a penis is as important to a man as anything on a woman's body is to her. For me, perhaps it's my breasts.
I agree. And aren't you glad your parents didn't cut off your nipples when you were a baby?

Quote:
Either way, I don't think his information is any less complete since I've told him all I know about the subject.
The difference is that he has a penis so he THINKS this makes him an authority on the penis. But he has no experience with having an intact penis so he has no basis for comparison. You, on the other hand, have never had an intact penis or a circ'd penis, so you're not walking around thinking you know everything there is to know about what the experience of having a penis is supposed to be.

Quote:
And just to play devil's advocate I'm not so sure those who oppose abortions would agree that it's the mother's body in question when you're talking about aborting. Not that I agree with that...I'm just saying.
The point is that it shouldn't be the father's decision because the father's body is not involved. The mother's body obviously IS involved. But in the case of circ, there is only ONE person whose body is involved and it is neither the father nor the mother. It is the son.

Quote:
I truly don't think it's as simple as it's the child and no one has a say except for the child. I think parents make decisions for their children's body ON BEHALF of the child all the time. I mean, god forbid something horrible happens where a child faces a possible amputation. Maybe it's a leg. Maybe it's a choice. If the child isn't old enough to make that monumental decision doesn't a parent have to do it for them??
There is such a fundamental difference between those situations that the principles of one don't apply to the other. If something horrible happens and an amputation might be medically indicated, that contrasts sharply with routine circ because with routine circ NOTHING HORRIBLE HAS HAPPENED and you're talking about removing a healthy body part. In your example, the child isn't able to make the decision himself and the decision has to be made before he reaches the age at which he would be able to make the decision himself. But in the case of circumcision, it is NOT true that it can only be done when the child is too young to make the decision himself. It can be done at any time. If he's 18 and he decided he wants to be circ'd, he can have himself circ'd.

I hope you can convince your husband, but even if you can't, I hope you don't allow your son to be permanently altered without your son's consent. I hope you stand up for your son's rights, the way you would want your parent to stand up for your rights if someone wanted to cut off your nipples or your genitals when you were an infant. It is a mother's duty to protect her baby.
post #52 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz
On the contrary, I DO NOT think it's ok to back down. But I think it's safe to say some decision has to be made before he's born, no?
If you agree that it's not ok to back down and let your husband have his way, then you have conceded the argument. If it's not okay to back down and let your husband have his way, then the only "okay" decision is not to allow your son to be circ'd. Right?
post #53 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz View Post

No, not at all. It really bothered him that his did not look like his dad's. So, it's the idea of looking different than other boys in general but even more so, the idea that son and father will not look the same since that exact same issue had such a huge impact on him growing up.
I'm dumbfounded by this one.

I grew up without ever knowing my father's foreskin status. It wasn't until my son was born and my father congratulated me on not having him cut, that he told me he also wasn't cut. I mean, it makes sense, my brother and I weren't cut, but I never played the matching game with my father's genitalia.

The whole "matching" thing really doesn't make sense to me at all. Does it make sense to you? Did you match genitals with your mother? Can he explain it better? Why did it impact him? How did it impact him?

On the one hand, you say you don't think your husband feels damaged by his circ, but on the other hand you say the fact that he was cut and his father wasn't, "hugely" impacted him. The story's not consistent. It really sounds like he's wrapping a lot of baggage around this issue.
post #54 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz View Post
I'm not so sure I agree with all of this. Can I really be objective?? This is my son we're talking about, not some random guy. While I do feel secure on a mental level, it really comes down to what's in my heart.
I can analyze my husband but I'm not so sure I truly believe that he's secretly unhappy he was circ'd or that he's trying to justify anything. I think a penis is as important to a man as anything on a woman's body is to her. For me, perhaps it's my breasts. Either way, I don't think his information is any less complete since I've told him all I know about the subject.
I definitely think your husband is trying to justify circumcision. The fact that he's using the old lockerroom argument, a feeble one at best, tells us that.



Quote:
I truly don't think it's as simple as it's the child and no one has a say except for the child. I think parents make decisions for their children's body ON BEHALF of the child all the time. I mean, god forbid something horrible happens where a child faces a possible amputation. Maybe it's a leg. Maybe it's a choice. If the child isn't old enough to make that monumental decision doesn't a parent have to do it for them??
Here's a question: If this were your daughter, would you be debating whether or not it was okay to have her clitoral hood removed? This isn't a decision made for life/death situations, which is often the case with amputations.

Quote:
Again, this is so very important to me and talking with my husband tonight only made me feel more passionate about my stance. I just want him to see it the same way I do and hope that eventually he will...
Good luck.

I want to impress upon you though, that he might not be comfortable with it for a while. I've heard of some men coming around after seeing their son and getting used to it. I think in most cases, circ'd men fight for it out of issues surrounding their sense of identity and self-worth. But you have to remember that your child is your child, yes, but he is his own person. No one should permanently alter his body for non-therapeutic reasons without his consent.
post #55 of 78
I just got back from the maternity ward, DH, DD, and I saw 3 intact brand-new baby boys, one even had a sign on his bassinet that said "I'm Intact, Don't Retract!" It was so bittersweet, knowing that one baby out of three was absolutely not going to be circ'ed.

ericaz- knowing everything that you know, and everything you've told your hubby: As soon as he sees his whole newborn son, he might be dumbfounded as to what is supposed to be cut off. Babies become real the minute they are born to a lot of people. If you can't get your DH to agree with you before then, you may still be suprised after the birth. Those babies just looked so beautiful, in all the different mottled colors. In this twisted country, YOU have the say of whether it stays or goes. Please, don't allow anyone to cut a perfectly healthy part off of your son!
post #56 of 78
Erica, I spent my entire school career in boarding schools with totaly open, communal shower rooms. And yes, we all looked. It was not until high school that modesty (homophobia) etc became an issue. Six year olds don't know about that stuff !!! Not once was I ever witness to a comment about someone's circ status. No one cared. Some were "Roundheads", some were "Cavaliers". No different from some being blond and some dark haired.

As for your DH assertion that being "different" from his Dad was a source of consternation for him. I just don't get that. It certainly was not an issue for my son. I think that when you explain that you were not comfortable with letting some doctor cut off half his penis, he will be most thankful. On the other hand, should you allow your DH to have his way, what will you say to your son when he asks you WHY ???? And given that he will have access to all the information that we have today, and more, he very likely will ask. Circumcision is cosmetic surgery, and no one has the right to force that on some one else.
post #57 of 78
I BTDT with EVERYTHING that's transpiring in your house, including worrying about the future of your marriage over leaving your son intact. I REALLY feel your pain right now. I could share with you some horrible emails from my DH stating how strongly he felt over this. I felt stronger.

Your husband loves you. He will love that unborn son and, after he's born, he will be amazed how much he loves it. Stand your ground, momma. Stand it NOW and let the chips fall where they may after the baby is born. My guess is -- he will stop pushing and get over it. It seems to have worked here.

My goal was to get the baby home w/out being circed and let things slide from there. I DID write a letter to the hospital in advance stating the baby MUST HAVE TWO SIGNATURES TO GET CIRCED and to not even bring the circ subject up to my husband and/or I -- that was preventing my DH to going around my back and getting it done. The issue was not brought up at all, save for one dorky nurse who was just plain out WEIRD about it. DH brought it up one more time after we got the baby home and I plain out said NO.

Good luck. Hang in there. I know it's so so stressful.

kelly
post #58 of 78
Can you convince your husband to at least NOT have it done soon after the birth? Remind him that it can be done at any time so no, a decision does not have to be made before the birth. You can also remind him that circumcision can interfere with establishing breastfeeding.

That could buy you some time.
post #59 of 78
I can add one more little note to all the great advice you have been givne so far. I am circ'd and my sons are not. As far as I can tell, this has not been an issue or problem for them. they have not been traumatized by the difference as far as I can tell. Of course, by the time they are your husbands age, then they could be interviewed to find out for certain...

Your husband cannot know if there will be an impact on your son if they are left normal. No way can he predict how his status or their peers status will affect them. It could be perfectly fine, a non issue. If he is rational, he has to agree that there is no way to know how it will affect your son. So even though this argument should have no validity from the standpoint of moral duties to care for your son, even if you buy into it for other reasons, it still is not persuasive.

Regards
post #60 of 78
It is much more likely that he will resent being circ'd than he will resent being not circ'd. If he resents not being circ'd, he can get himself circ'd. If he resents being circ'd he cannot get himself uncirc'd.
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