My husband is dead-set against me - Page 3

[A&A]

You're the mama. Say, "over my dead body." and mean it.

A nicer way to say it would be, "I'm sorry; I just can't let you do this to our son." And repeat, repeat, repeat. (with lots of crying, if necessary)

Here's an article for you to read about why it's so important for you to find your mama instincts and stand up for your boy:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

(and read my signature.)

[A&A]

More thoughts......what if he wanted to cut off part of your son's big toe? Would you even consider it, just to keep your dh happy? Or would you look at him like he's crazy and say "NO WAY!" regardless of whether or not that made him mad?

It's the same thing. Protect your son.

[Super Pickle]

Lunarmagic, congratulations on your pregnancy. I'm sorry you're dealing with this stress during what should be a time of joyful anticipation.

I have 2 sons. The first was circumcised because I honestly thought it was something you just "had" to do. I felt in my heart that it was terribly wrong, but had absolutley no knowledge or information to back up my gut feeling, so I let it happen. The guilt has been almost unbearable at times--and I didn't even KNOW ANY BETTER! I cannot imagine how much worse the guilt would have been if I had known how unnecessary it all was.

Our second son is intact. I had learned a lot from here and from my first experience, and I shared my desire to leave #2 intact with my husband. My DH acted a lot like yours. It was the only time we ever fought, the only thing we couldn't resolve. I felt torn between my child and my husband. At one point, I even wondered if an intact famaily would be more important to my son than an intact body, because I was afraid we might split up over it. In the end, I just dropped it. I didn't talk about it for the last 3 months of my pregnancy. And when the baby was born, I just said NO. That was it. When DH asked about it, I shook my head, and that was that. And he let it go. He never came out and agreed with me, but he no longer pressed the matter.

I will say that the mere fact that he was arguing for cutting the baby harmed our sex life. I felt, If I can't trust him not to hurt our baby's privates, how can I trust him with my privates? There are a lot of things we used to do that I can't do anymore.

Sometimes you just have to put your foot down. I believe that some circumcised men will never be able to admit to themselves or anyone else that circumcision should end with them. I think on some level, to admit that would be like accusing their own parents of raping them. or calling themselves victims of abuse, or accepting that they are damaged in some way--in some sexual way. However, I think these men can and do come to an acceptance of leaving their children intact--as long as they can point to their wives and say "It was her decision." So, I vote for letting it go, refusing to allow it, and not talking about it anymore.
But, just in case something should happen (like a C-section), make sure your doctor and OB know ahead of time that you're refusing circ.

[lunarmagic]

Originally Posted by Greg B

Really good advice above. I will add two things:

1) the decision to circ does not have to happen when your son is an infant, it can be doen anytime, so a compromise might be to agree to revisit it later...

2) Your husbands feelings are not reasonable arguments for RIC. They are simply feelings. The true factors should be:

Physicians have legal and ethical duties to their child-patient to render competent necessary care based on what the patient needs, not what someone else, including a parent, expresses.

The child has a legal right to bodily integrity. Upon reaching adulthood, the child may have a right to sue to recover damages for injuries or unnecessary surgery sustained in childhood.

The parent must ethically and legally make decisions for the child based solely on the best interests of the child.

Circumcision amputates approximately 50 percent of the heavily innervated skin and mucosa of the penis, tissue that is a specific erogenous zone. Excision of the foreskin renders the remaining skin taut and immovable, eliminates its protective, sensory, and sexual functions, and destroys the gliding action of the foreskin, changing the natural mechanics of
normal human reproduction.

Circumcision puts the patient at risk of surgical mishap, adhesions, meatitis, meatal ulceration, infections, bleeding, and even death. The recent fast spread of MRSA in the US. is an example. Circumcision exposes the infant to risk of exposure to MRSA and other antibiotic resistent bacteria.
While MRSA and other Antibiotic resistent bacteria can be spread by skin contact, they become ever more dangerous if they enter through a cut or open wound. Some recently circumcised boys have died from MRSA when their bodies did not respond to anti-biotic treatment. Others required treatment with the most recent experimental antibiotics. One boy who recently recovered now has an enlarged heart; that will cause lifetime consequences for him. The most recent statistics indicate that in 2007,
more persons have died from MRSA in the US than from AIDS.

Circumcision is an extremely painful procedure with long-lasting post-operative pain.

There is absolutely no reason why circumcision can not be done later, when the child is old enough to make a legally informed decision. Potentially this causes less harm to sexual function and appearance, based upon typical growth patterns and the Doctor's ability to predict outcomes before sexual maturity.

Until he is willing to discuss these issues and give reasons why the benefits outweigh the negatives, he is just being irrational. Irrational decisions are rarely good ones.

Thank you for all of this. It has been my position with my husband all along that, if he came to me with some solid arguments and facts I would certainly discuss it... but "because I want to" does NOT fly with me, especially in light of all the research I've done. It's just not good enough, and I don't see how he can think it is.

Originally Posted by l_olive

I wish my dh could disagree, too.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=469671

Read the whole thread to see how many women said that they had had partners who sounded just like my dh.

Circing is playing russian roulette with your son's future sex life.

I don't think they ever will disagree though... at least my husband. Admitting that something could be wrong with him? Far too scary. But I can certainly understand the truth behind it.

Originally Posted by Night_Nurse

Re: the video - Try not to let it bother you so much. I know it's a horrible thing to see but...you watching or not watching it won't change what happen to that baby. It was already done to him and watching it won't inflict all the pain onto him again. But- watching it might prevent the same horrific pain from happening to another child!

I don't know you or your personal dynamic with your husband and I'm hoping I don't offend you. But this would be a non-negotiable issue with my spouse. Frankly, I'd leave my husband before I'd consent to circumcise my son. Just as I would leave my husband if he tried to beat my children or harm me or them in anyway. I guess I was fortunate to have a husband, although cut himself, who understood that genital cutting was wrong and unnecessary. I understand that you don't want fighting or tension between you and your spouse but I personally think it's a mother's job to protect her child at all costs. For me, I'm accountable to my God and my children and anybody else can work through their own issues that they may have with me or leave, including my husband. I'd convey that I'm willing to compromise on other issues but absolutely not on cutting my son.
And as far as him saying a natural penis is disgusting, what will he think if your child has a birth defect like a cleft palate or a huge birthmark covering his face? Will he be disgusted by that or will he still love your baby? I would hope he'd love and accept your child no matter what and since the intact penis is a natural body part he's born with, why would he want to subject your baby to pain and possible surgical complications?
As someone who has witnessed circ too many times, please don't give in and allow your son to be cut just to appease your spouse. Maybe if you kindly put your foot down and say it's no longer open for discussion your dh will have time to work through whatever issues he has with it before the baby comes and therefore there won't be the tension over it at baby's birth.
Good luck. Stress isn't good for a pregnant mama. I'm sorry you're going through this. Good thoughts are being sent your way!

Yes... I truly hope he's able to work through his issues. I have really tried to help him but he gets upset about me doing that. I think it's something he needs to do on his own... after I've said my piece/shown him the evidence, then let it just sit and simmer. I can only hope he'll come to understand where I'm coming from someday.

Originally Posted by rabbitmum

I can't see that there's any point in saying that you will discuss it later or that you want the decision to be made by both of you, as it's not a matter that it's possible to compromise on. Either he's intact, or he's not - there is no middle way.

Yes, this is my thought. I don't want to leave the door open like that or he WILL expect to re-discuss it in the future.

Originally Posted by A&A

You're the mama. Say, "over my dead body." and mean it.

A nicer way to say it would be, "I'm sorry; I just can't let you do this to our son." And repeat, repeat, repeat. (with lots of crying, if necessary)

Here's an article for you to read about why it's so important for you to find your mama instincts and stand up for your boy:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

(and read my signature.)

One night in bed I was crying horribly and I said to my husband, "I wish I could give you this to make you happy, but I CAN'T, I CAN'T do that to my son. I just can't do that."

Thank you for posting that link.

Originally Posted by A&A

More thoughts......what if he wanted to cut off part of your son's big toe? Would you even consider it, just to keep your dh happy? Or would you look at him like he's crazy and say "NO WAY!" regardless of whether or not that made him mad?

It's the same thing. Protect your son.

Good point.

Originally Posted by Super Pickle

Lunarmagic, congratulations on your pregnancy. I'm sorry you're dealing with this stress during what should be a time of joyful anticipation.

I have 2 sons. The first was circumcised because I honestly thought it was something you just "had" to do. I felt in my heart that it was terribly wrong, but had absolutley no knowledge or information to back up my gut feeling, so I let it happen. The guilt has been almost unbearable at times--and I didn't even KNOW ANY BETTER! I cannot imagine how much worse the guilt would have been if I had known how unnecessary it all was.

Our second son is intact. I had learned a lot from here and from my first experience, and I shared my desire to leave #2 intact with my husband. My DH acted a lot like yours. It was the only time we ever fought, the only thing we couldn't resolve. I felt torn between my child and my husband. At one point, I even wondered if an intact famaily would be more important to my son than an intact body, because I was afraid we might split up over it. In the end, I just dropped it. I didn't talk about it for the last 3 months of my pregnancy. And when the baby was born, I just said NO. That was it. When DH asked about it, I shook my head, and that was that. And he let it go. He never came out and agreed with me, but he no longer pressed the matter.

I will say that the mere fact that he was arguing for cutting the baby harmed our sex life. I felt, If I can't trust him not to hurt our baby's privates, how can I trust him with my privates? There are a lot of things we used to do that I can't do anymore.

Sometimes you just have to put your foot down. I believe that some circumcised men will never be able to admit to themselves or anyone else that circumcision should end with them. I think on some level, to admit that would be like accusing their own parents of raping them. or calling themselves victims of abuse, or accepting that they are damaged in some way--in some sexual way. However, I think these men can and do come to an acceptance of leaving their children intact--as long as they can point to their wives and say "It was her decision." So, I vote for letting it go, refusing to allow it, and not talking about it anymore.
But, just in case something should happen (like a C-section), make sure your doctor and OB know ahead of time that you're refusing circ.

That's an interesting point... about how men can come to an acceptance if they can say their wife "made" them do it. Very good insight. I guess I will have to just put my foot down. I despise doing that. I'm a very empathetic person. Being around disharmony makes me very stressed and upset, so I always try to find a balance, a compromise. And we do this frequently with few issues. But like others have pointed out... there is no "compromise" in circ. It's yes or no. So I guess I'm just going to have to suck it up and live with his anger until he gets over it.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by lunarmagic

So I guess I'm just going to have to suck it up and live with his anger until he gets over it.

Good for you. He'll "get over it" a lot faster than you think.

[jessjgh1]

I just had a minute to skim... I'm so sorry you are dealing with this- you need to be focusing on preparing for your beautiful birth and resting, relaxing, preparing. I went through a similar issue with dh (Jewish) and I remember the stress and anguish that it caused. our issue was not resolved till after ds's birth and that was tremedously more stressful. DH admits now that he made a bigger deal out of it than he really felt and really was just hoping the issue would go away and I'd just give in. Believe me, I thought about it 90% of the time and it barely registered to him except when we were in conflict. I wish I had pushed for it to be over sooner so I could have focused on other things, although every effort to protect my son was worth it-- no regrets about making the effort, just realized I had gotten closure sooner.

Can you simply heartfully tell him something like, 'THIS issue NEEDS to be reslolved NOW so that I can get on with my pregnancy focusing on positive things. This issue hurts me so much and if I 'give in' I WILL be destroyed by it. I know that. Because it is PURELY social reasons/not medical reasons you are compelled by it goes to the core of my being to stand up and protect my unborn baby in the tender early moments of his life. He needs to be showered with gentleness and love and circumcison, no matter how it is done cannot be a part of our sons 'gentle' birth experience. I know it is wrong and it will damage my relationship as wife and mother. And because you care so much about this pregnancy and want to support me so much, it hurts that you cannot see how this directly effects the nurturing and mothering we are so treasuring and looking forward to birthing with this baby.

To touch on some other things.....
I'm in MA and almost every one I know and am close to has left their boys intact. One 'crunchy' friend did circ and regrets her decision. Even most of my non-crunchy friends left their sons intact. And others that it has come up with (people i left ds with/dacare for example) have all been supportive or thought it a non issue.

As for the looks issue....
There are also some websites where you could compare botched circs-- even though dh believe this wouldn't happen-- obviously it sometimes does and no parent thinks it will happen to their child. Not to mention that the erect intact penis often looks similar to a circumcised one. There are also some sites that are better than others... most sites come across like porn. I can think of one natural man photograph site that is more tastefully/artfully done.

There are many other strategies you could take, your dh seems to have an issue regarding the looks of a penis- so I'd say that this could be regardless of status. With circumcision is he going to decide how his sons penis looks like and grill the doctor on exactly how his expectations are? But realistically he probably should. As I've seen on other boards, parents are often surprised by the circumsion results (too much skin left, adhesions, etc.) that all of these things should be discussed before hand... and frankly as soon as i realized that, there was no way I was going to 'decide' how my sons penis would look or decide which 'type' of circ (each with its own con list) was 'okay'.

Please continue to post and I'm sure we can touch on new issues or specific things that you and dh need to resolve this.

Bottom line is it is your sons body and intact is how babies are born. ((hugs))

Jessica

[jessjgh1]

Originally Posted by A&A

Good for you. He'll "get over it" a lot faster than you think.

I agree w A&A and the siggie:
Circumcision is a violent wound on the body of a boy and the heart of a mother.
Sadly, we have to fight so hard for our births to be gentle, from the issue of circumcision to all the standard interventions pushed that interfere with the normal process of birth

sometimes it helps dp's to understand when looking at the big picture of our birth culture- which i'm sure you will get w/ bradley.

good luck

Jessica

[tammyswanson]

Originally Posted by ja mama

It's about doing what is right. It's about protecting your son. Your husband doesn't have to agree or understand. It isn't his body. It's just a lot harder to look at yourself with respect when you're holding your whimpering, crying newborn, knowing it's your fault he's circed.

This is SO RIGHT ON THE MONEY! You are the mother, it's you who is the protector. Just like those lionesses who have to protect their cubs from being eaten by the male lions. I would not let him be mutilated because your DH has some serious issues about his own circ that he refuses to deal with. It's obvious that he was also deeply traumatized from his own circ and can't deal with it. Hence his strong reaction. It's a defense mechanism to keep him from realizing what was taken from him. It's a shame he can't overcome it for the sake of his defenseless baby.

Plus, how would you and he feel if something would go wrong? Most 'complications' are not reported and are blamed on other things...like hemorrhage or just about anything else. No circumciser wants to admit they caused a baby's death. And what a horrible way to die!

[foreskin friendly]

Originally Posted by jessjgh1

I agree w A&A and the siggie:
Circumcision is a violent wound on the body of a boy and the heart of a mother.
Sadly, we have to fight so hard for our births to be gentle, from the issue of circumcision to all the standard interventions pushed that interfere with the normal process of birth

sometimes it helps dp's to understand when looking at the big picture of our birth culture- which i'm sure you will get w/ bradley.

good luck

Jessica

Yes, as Jessica and A&A posted, if it is any consolation, he will almost definitely "get over it" fairly quickly...

My DP was pretty much over it after the first few days (and I think he was worried about how to approach any criticism from his family or friends that expected us to circ...while he was doing diaper changes...etc)..
Originally, we were head to head on this issue... he was adamant about my DS being circ'd... I stood firm and would not sway or budge and said absolutely not, no negotiating. (I also cried about this, but did it out of his presence so that he would not think that he had any sort of influence on me emotionally regarding this issue whatsoever). I know it is hard, especially when you are pregnant and emotionally charged, but it might be best NOT to discuss this (AT ALL anymore, and at least not..) while you are upset (he may see this as a window of opportunity-thinking you will only put up with so much before you cave in)...

Fast forward almost three years and my DP is very one of the strongest advocates AGAINST routine infant circumcision now.

It seems as if you are confident in following your intuition not to circ. I would be lying if I said that I suspected a possibility that I might see an updated post from you that you allowed your DS to be circ'd... IT seems you are set with the idea of leaving your son whole, but just having so much trouble dealing with DH over it... so stressful!

Maybe your hubby is (sub)/consciously repulsed by the thought of an intact penis (or being confronted with your son's) because it is a reality check. It is something that will remind him of how he once was and he may think it will emotionally torture him... all of these are highly likely, although he will use the fronts/excuses that he's already provided...and as you stated, these are all emotionally charged. The atmosphere when discussing it is probably more than he can bear and the thought of handling your son with something that he was stripped of as an infant may really be eating at him. POOR GUY! I feel bad for your husband!
I really think after the first few days, after seeing your son's beautiful whole body, he will fall in love, be so overwhelmed (excited/tired/in love!) with your new baby that this lingering argument between you both will disappear..at least dwindle.. there will be so many more important things to tend to.
This may also be about him kind of living vicariously through your babe. He was not afforded the basic right of being allowed to make the decision of whether or not he was cut, so maybe now is his opportunity.. this one issue that he thinks he can persuade you to give him control over (although he is also pushing to circ/as opposed to being on the other side of the fence..HE may think that making this decision is his way to stay in control) .. am I making sense? (probably not...I can't articulate well what I am thinking right now)
He told you this is the one thing he can't agree with you on for a reason... it is soooo extremely personal to him... he feels he can maintain whatever control he thinks he may (but didn't) have, by making an executive decision about your son's genitals-which of course is your SON'S personal business...not your husbands (which I know, you know)
(The Vulnerability of Men is an excellent article...)

Good luck with everything, Wishing you the best for a wonderful birthing experience and less stress from your hubby.

[Quirky]

You've gotten great advice and insights above. I just wanted to chime in on the New England thing:

My dh grew up in Boston and Weston, and swam competitively from middle school through college. In college and for many years after, he worked as a personal trainer and worked out regularly at gyms. In all his years of being around lots of naked (and often crude and rude) guys in the gym, never, ever, not once did he hear anyone get teased for being intact (or circed for that matter). The dominant paradigm of male lockerroom etiquette is -- you might notice, but you DON'T discuss for fear of being a) beaten to a pulp or b) ragged on unmercifully yourself for looking.

So this idea that your son will grow up to be tormented because he's intact -- is not at all likely. It's really about your dh and his need to feel OK with what was done to him. It truly sucks for him that he was circed as a baby boy and put through that pain and agony, but he's an adult now and can deal with or choose to repress his feelings about his own circ. His feelings are, in the end, his responsibility and his to deal with. You can't make it better for him by assisting in his denial in the way he wants you to. Your son is not a bargaining chip or a band-aid for him to use to cover up his own unconscious issues.

Take your wind out of his sail. Just say no, and let him deal with his own feelings. You're not responsible for making him feel bad, and you can't make him feel better about your son being intact. He can deal with his own emotions in his own time -- but your son's body is your son's and no one else's. Just come to that realization, stop fighting and stop trying to persuade your dh, and you'll feel a lot better.

[lunarmagic]

Originally Posted by A&A

Good for you. He'll "get over it" a lot faster than you think.

I sure hope so. That would be a wonderful surprize for me.

Originally Posted by jessjgh1

I just had a minute to skim... I'm so sorry you are dealing with this- you need to be focusing on preparing for your beautiful birth and resting, relaxing, preparing. I went through a similar issue with dh (Jewish) and I remember the stress and anguish that it caused. our issue was not resolved till after ds's birth and that was tremedously more stressful. DH admits now that he made a bigger deal out of it than he really felt and really was just hoping the issue would go away and I'd just give in. Believe me, I thought about it 90% of the time and it barely registered to him except when we were in conflict. I wish I had pushed for it to be over sooner so I could have focused on other things, although every effort to protect my son was worth it-- no regrets about making the effort, just realized I had gotten closure sooner.

Can you simply heartfully tell him something like, 'THIS issue NEEDS to be reslolved NOW so that I can get on with my pregnancy focusing on positive things. This issue hurts me so much and if I 'give in' I WILL be destroyed by it. I know that. Because it is PURELY social reasons/not medical reasons you are compelled by it goes to the core of my being to stand up and protect my unborn baby in the tender early moments of his life. He needs to be showered with gentleness and love and circumcison, no matter how it is done cannot be a part of our sons 'gentle' birth experience. I know it is wrong and it will damage my relationship as wife and mother. And because you care so much about this pregnancy and want to support me so much, it hurts that you cannot see how this directly effects the nurturing and mothering we are so treasuring and looking forward to birthing with this baby.

To touch on some other things.....
I'm in MA and almost every one I know and am close to has left their boys intact. One 'crunchy' friend did circ and regrets her decision. Even most of my non-crunchy friends left their sons intact. And others that it has come up with (people i left ds with/dacare for example) have all been supportive or thought it a non issue.

As for the looks issue....
There are also some websites where you could compare botched circs-- even though dh believe this wouldn't happen-- obviously it sometimes does and no parent thinks it will happen to their child. Not to mention that the erect intact penis often looks similar to a circumcised one. There are also some sites that are better than others... most sites come across like porn. I can think of one natural man photograph site that is more tastefully/artfully done.

There are many other strategies you could take, your dh seems to have an issue regarding the looks of a penis- so I'd say that this could be regardless of status. With circumcision is he going to decide how his sons penis looks like and grill the doctor on exactly how his expectations are? But realistically he probably should. As I've seen on other boards, parents are often surprised by the circumsion results (too much skin left, adhesions, etc.) that all of these things should be discussed before hand... and frankly as soon as i realized that, there was no way I was going to 'decide' how my sons penis would look or decide which 'type' of circ (each with its own con list) was 'okay'.

Please continue to post and I'm sure we can touch on new issues or specific things that you and dh need to resolve this.

Bottom line is it is your sons body and intact is how babies are born. ((hugs))

Jessica

That's pretty much why I've let the issue drop completely for the past 5 weeks... I've been focussing on me. I really don't want to stress myself out (and I really was stressed out, living in that much discord). My focus lately has been on the birth, on the baby. On myself. I will be sure to post if more things come up!

Originally Posted by jessjgh1

I agree w A&A and the siggie:
Circumcision is a violent wound on the body of a boy and the heart of a mother.
Sadly, we have to fight so hard for our births to be gentle, from the issue of circumcision to all the standard interventions pushed that interfere with the normal process of birth

sometimes it helps dp's to understand when looking at the big picture of our birth culture- which i'm sure you will get w/ bradley.

good luck

Jessica

DH really didn't "get" my need for a gentle birth at first, and I don't think he 100% buys in yet but he's listened to me explain and read parts of books and he's starting to understand better where I'm coming from.... why I want to avoid interventions. I'm really looking forward to the Bradley classes (which start in January!) - I think it'll be really good for him to get that view from someone other than me.

Originally Posted by tammyswanson

This is SO RIGHT ON THE MONEY! You are the mother, it's you who is the protector. Just like those lionesses who have to protect their cubs from being eaten by the male lions. I would not let him be mutilated because your DH has some serious issues about his own circ that he refuses to deal with. It's obvious that he was also deeply traumatized from his own circ and can't deal with it. Hence his strong reaction. It's a defense mechanism to keep him from realizing what was taken from him. It's a shame he can't overcome it for the sake of his defenseless baby.

Plus, how would you and he feel if something would go wrong? Most 'complications' are not reported and are blamed on other things...like hemorrhage or just about anything else. No circumciser wants to admit they caused a baby's death. And what a horrible way to die!

Gosh I don't think I could forgive myself if it went RIGHT. I don't think I could ever let that go, the guilt on my heart.

Originally Posted by foreskin friendly

Yes, as Jessica and A&A posted, if it is any consolation, he will almost definitely "get over it" fairly quickly...

My DP was pretty much over it after the first few days (and I think he was worried about how to approach any criticism from his family or friends that expected us to circ...while he was doing diaper changes...etc)..
Originally, we were head to head on this issue... he was adamant about my DS being circ'd... I stood firm and would not sway or budge and said absolutely not, no negotiating. (I also cried about this, but did it out of his presence so that he would not think that he had any sort of influence on me emotionally regarding this issue whatsoever). I know it is hard, especially when you are pregnant and emotionally charged, but it might be best NOT to discuss this (AT ALL anymore, and at least not..) while you are upset (he may see this as a window of opportunity-thinking you will only put up with so much before you cave in)...

Fast forward almost three years and my DP is very one of the strongest advocates AGAINST routine infant circumcision now.

It seems as if you are confident in following your intuition not to circ. I would be lying if I said that I suspected a possibility that I might see an updated post from you that you allowed your DS to be circ'd... IT seems you are set with the idea of leaving your son whole, but just having so much trouble dealing with DH over it... so stressful!

Maybe your hubby is (sub)/consciously repulsed by the thought of an intact penis (or being confronted with your son's) because it is a reality check. It is something that will remind him of how he once was and he may think it will emotionally torture him... all of these are highly likely, although he will use the fronts/excuses that he's already provided...and as you stated, these are all emotionally charged. The atmosphere when discussing it is probably more than he can bear and the thought of handling your son with something that he was stripped of as an infant may really be eating at him. POOR GUY! I feel bad for your husband!
I really think after the first few days, after seeing your son's beautiful whole body, he will fall in love, be so overwhelmed (excited/tired/in love!) with your new baby that this lingering argument between you both will disappear..at least dwindle.. there will be so many more important things to tend to.
This may also be about him kind of living vicariously through your babe. He was not afforded the basic right of being allowed to make the decision of whether or not he was cut, so maybe now is his opportunity.. this one issue that he thinks he can persuade you to give him control over (although he is also pushing to circ/as opposed to being on the other side of the fence..HE may think that making this decision is his way to stay in control) .. am I making sense? (probably not...I can't articulate well what I am thinking right now)
He told you this is the one thing he can't agree with you on for a reason... it is soooo extremely personal to him... he feels he can maintain whatever control he thinks he may (but didn't) have, by making an executive decision about your son's genitals-which of course is your SON'S personal business...not your husbands (which I know, you know)
(The Vulnerability of Men is an excellent article...)

Good luck with everything, Wishing you the best for a wonderful birthing experience and less stress from your hubby.

For a while I said to myself, "Okay, so what if I did allow this to get done. Would it really be as big a deal as I think it will? And I allowed the scenario to play out in my head. And I cried. And I decided that no... no I couldn't do it. It's not something I can give in on with a clear concience. I have made so many choices for this child, to give in on this seems like a betrayal of myself. I really like your comments... I think you have it so right, that his reasons are so very personal and so very strong, he's clinging to that control. I know he gets panicked when he talks about our son not getting circed... like he has somehow "lost" the control. Like it's the loss of control itself that upsets him. You said it far better than I. I strongly feel that our son will be absolutely beautiful as he is. I believe he is perfect exactly how he is in the womb. I will love each and every part of him. And while DH seems to think he will be repulsed... I don't think he could ever look at his son and feel let down. He has waited SO long for this (20 years to have a child, for him), and I hope his wonder of the birth will override everything else.

Originally Posted by Quirky

You've gotten great advice and insights above. I just wanted to chime in on the New England thing:

My dh grew up in Boston and Weston, and swam competitively from middle school through college. In college and for many years after, he worked as a personal trainer and worked out regularly at gyms. In all his years of being around lots of naked (and often crude and rude) guys in the gym, never, ever, not once did he hear anyone get teased for being intact (or circed for that matter). The dominant paradigm of male lockerroom etiquette is -- you might notice, but you DON'T discuss for fear of being a) beaten to a pulp or b) ragged on unmercifully yourself for looking.

So this idea that your son will grow up to be tormented because he's intact -- is not at all likely. It's really about your dh and his need to feel OK with what was done to him. It truly sucks for him that he was circed as a baby boy and put through that pain and agony, but he's an adult now and can deal with or choose to repress his feelings about his own circ. His feelings are, in the end, his responsibility and his to deal with. You can't make it better for him by assisting in his denial in the way he wants you to. Your son is not a bargaining chip or a band-aid for him to use to cover up his own unconscious issues.

Take your wind out of his sail. Just say no, and let him deal with his own feelings. You're not responsible for making him feel bad, and you can't make him feel better about your son being intact. He can deal with his own emotions in his own time -- but your son's body is your son's and no one else's. Just come to that realization, stop fighting and stop trying to persuade your dh, and you'll feel a lot better.

I have heard a couple of stories of men who did get teased as a kid - but they seem very few and far between. I too would think that it would be totally taboo to comment on another man's penis! I would think they'd get laughed out of the locker room for looking! The whole locker room argument has held no weight to me from the start... I mean, kids are going to get teased, and I think we need to be teaching our children to embrace diversity - not forcing them to conform!! Even in highschool I refused to conform to anything and yeah I got teased, but it happens about EVERYTHING.. what jeans you wear, how you cut your hair, what food you bring (or buy)... it's ridiculous to think that we need to physically and permanently alter our children to "avoid" teasing. Ridiculous.

[Mama Poot]

I do not know if this is a possibility, but if this is that serious of a problem I would seek legal protection for your unborn child. There has to be some kind of order you can get banning anyone from requesting/forcing the procedure to be performed. If you do not consent to this being done and your DH takes the baby to a doctor and has it done, I would hope you could sue the crap out of the doctor because I believe BOTH parents have to give consent. I really think it might help to speak with a lawyer and see what your rights are.

[amydep]

I apologize ahead of time if I am repeating what has already been said, but I just want to make the point that ultimately the decision should be up to your son. When your son is of an age where he can make that decision and if he wants to be circ'd, then you can allow him to do that (I seriously doubt he would really want part of his penis cut off though). The default is an intact penis. The decision to circumcise should only be made by the person who the penis belongs to. Period.

By the way...I'm sooooo sorry you are going through this.

[lunarmagic]

Originally Posted by Mama Poot

I do not know if this is a possibility, but if this is that serious of a problem I would seek legal protection for your unborn child. There has to be some kind of order you can get banning anyone from requesting/forcing the procedure to be performed. If you do not consent to this being done and your DH takes the baby to a doctor and has it done, I would hope you could sue the crap out of the doctor because I believe BOTH parents have to give consent. I really think it might help to speak with a lawyer and see what your rights are.

If my husband ever did something like that behind my back *he* would be the one having serious issues because I'd be packing up and leaving. I have no worries that he would ever do something like that without my consent. I guess some women do have to worry about that, but no, all I'm worried about is arguments and him resenting me for refusing to give consent.

Originally Posted by amydep

I apologize ahead of time if I am repeating what has already been said, but I just want to make the point that ultimately the decision should be up to your son. When your son is of an age where he can make that decision and if he wants to be circ'd, then you can allow him to do that (I seriously doubt he would really want part of his penis cut off though). The default is an intact penis. The decision to circumcise should only be made by the person who the penis belongs to. Period.

By the way...I'm sooooo sorry you are going through this.

Thanks. And yes, I agree. It should be his choice.

[carriebft]

Sometimes it seems like men don't see the compromise that is not circumcising. They feel that, if the mother who doesn't want circumcision wins, they win. Does that make sense? So, instead of seeing the intact baby boy as default, they see that as you (the mother not wanting to cut the baby) as winning.

For very debate orientated people and those dead set on "winning", it might be a tough concept to understand WHY they are angry.

The baby will exit the womb with a foreskin. Is that fact of nature a sign that you have won? No! of course not....but sometimes fathers who are cut and pushing for their sons to be see it that way.

Try, instead of framing it as a debate or that your side is "intactness", make intact the default state and not circumcising a compromise. The ability to cut is on the table. The ability to stay intact is on the table. No one has won or lost the argument. The final decision will rest with the owner of the penis (the only winner, the way it should be)

ETA: this situation can obviously also happen the other way around (with mom wanting to cut and dad not wanting to)

[dinahx]

(((Hugs)))

I know that this is a hard stance to take.

But I would never ever ever sign that form. Ultimately it is up to you. Your DH does not really, legally have ANY say in the matter . . . What is more important, in the end? His feelings/irrational fears or the very real feelings and very real fear/pain of a 2 day old infant? Mothers are called to protect their children from everything and everyone, including their fathers. I am wishing you strength!

[ctdoula]

Are you planning to take a childbirth class at Baystate? If so, you can PM me & I'll tell you what night to sign up for. My classes are definatly anti-circ.

[Bisou]

I have a two-year-old boy who isn't circumcized, and I am SO happy I didn't do that to him. I think the suggestions of some of the other posters that the decision should be your son's, when he is older, is a very good one. If he goes to middle school or high school and is made fun of for his penis, give him the option of getting circumsized then. I doubt that will even be an issue, because in many places today only about 50% of boys are circumcized, and that number is decreasing. Circumcision isn't the norm it used to be! The idea that it's less painful at this age is ludicrous, in my opinion, and just something people say to make themselves feel better about doing this to their babies. Tell your husband that it's your SON'S decision, not his. What about the rare cases where circumcisions are botched? There was even a case where the damage was so bad, they decided to raise the little boy as a girl (a whole different problem) because his penis was totally destroyed. It's just not right. I hope your husband will see the light on this one! Ask him to let your son make the decision about his own penis!

I wish you luck with this difficult issue. Hang in there!

Bisou

[fruitful womb]

Vaugnmama, My story is so similar to yours. What did it for me was the religion card he pulled. "Its my Biblical duty as a father to make sure he is circumcised!"

Lunarmagic, We wished we knew then what we know now. Circumcision isn't required for Christians. If you want to know more about that I'll PM you or anyone of us would be glad to offer that information, just ask. But we can't discuss it on CAC, just so you know.

If I knew what YOU know now, The guilt I deal with ON A DAILY BASIS would be unimaginable!!! Do not do that to yourself.

Believe me, your dh WILL THANK YOU for this one day!!!! Every dad I know who's wife stood up to protect their ds even tho the dad was so adamantly wanting a circ'd ds, still thanked the mother of their child(ren) for protecting them.

Once he sees how protective you are and come to realize you were right in being so protective, he will always trust your judgment in every matter in your parenting and marriage life!

[Bisou]

I just viewed PART of a circumcision video on YouTube, and I couldn't even get through it. They start by strapping the baby's arms and legs down while the baby screams. They then insert some sort of instrument to separate the foreskin from the rest of the penis, and then they cut. I didn't make it past where they inserted the instrument because the baby started screaming so terribly I couldn't handle it. You can see why most parents have them take the baby to a different room, alone, so they don't have to witness this. When the baby comes back "peacefully sleeping" or zombie-like, due to shock, they can just tell themselves that it must not have been that bad!

I am so glad I didn't do this to my son, but I am also a single mama, so I didn't have pressures from anyone else to do so, either.

If your husband hasn't watched any videos like this, I'd say it's a must! I never thought of circumcision before a guy I was dating (who was in medical school) told me he watched a video of it and thought it was the most horrible thing he ever saw. A few weeks later, I was teaching a class (I teach college) where the topic of female genital mutilation came up, also sometimes called female circumcision. After we talked about this for a few minutes, one guy raised his hand and said, "What about what they do to us guys when they circumcise us? Isn't that mutilation?" Several other men--burly, macho mechanics and other tough guys--agreed and talked about how unfair it was that they didn't get to make this choice for themselves! I was so surprised. I never would've expected these sorts of men (conservative looking, blue collar, macho, traditionally masculine, etc) to have this opinion AND speak so openly about it! It was a shocking moment. I was only about 25, and I hadn't really considered circumcision before, but from that moment on, I was against it! I am glad I was so fortunate to learn about this sooner rather than later. I feel for all of you mamas who face guilt because of this decision. If more of us speak out, however, maybe in 5-10 years it will be uncommon.

(A side note: Anyone have any comebacks to the research done in Africa that circumcision prevents AIDS? PM me, if you do. I don't want to divert the thread!)

Good luck mama in convincing your husband to see this differently. It must be very stressful for you. Just remember: you can always circumcise, but you can never really un-do a circumcision once it's done! (I know you sound pretty convinced of this, but maybe more persuasion for your husband???)