Signing Up For An Epidural - Page 8

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by 3cuties

Also remember in 2008 there is much more information available now and the internet is a different thing than even just 8-10 years ago.

Second, I am just amazed at the judgment against women who didn't do as we do and the lack of desire to question the system. I thought that was what I read so much about in all the threads and posts on MDC about pregnancy. But really, in the end -- the system is not being questioned? Instead the preference is to assign individual blame and judge people by our own experience rather than step outside of our experience and look at thing's objectively. This is so bothersome to me.

if people dont want to question the system that is their choice, i am not judging them... but i also dont expect them to blame others for their choices.
I own my birth choices. We all should.

[3cuties]

Originally Posted by almadianna

if people dont want to question the system that is their choice, i am not judging them... but i also dont expect them to blame others for their choices.
I own my birth choices. We all should.

Actually your posts do judge them. And people cannot own their own "choices" without having full knowledge. There is not full disclosure in the current medical model but yet people believe there is.

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by 3cuties

Actually your posts do judge them. And people cannot own their own "choices" without having full knowledge. There is not full disclosure in the current medical model but yet people believe there is.

i think this is the crucial point where we differ in opinion. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to get full knowledge because letting others give us this information is what got us in this situation in the first place.

[3cuties]

Originally Posted by almadianna

i think this is the crucial point where we differ in opinion. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to get full knowledge because letting others give us this information is what got us in this situation in the first place.

The problem is though, there isn't room in the system for people to know they are not getting full knowledge. Most of mothers and grandmothers come from this system -- there is a lack of knowledge through the generations. People are surrounded by everyone doing the same thing and receiving the same care. The responsibility for this is not individuals it is the doctors and their educators and that they have allowed a system to develop that is not evidence based and is counter to their oaths and the reason they practice.

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by 3cuties

The problem is though, there isn't room in the system for people to know they are not getting full knowledge. Most of mothers and grandmothers come from this system -- there is a lack of knowledge through the generations. People are surrounded by everyone doing the same thing and receiving the same care. The responsibility for this is not individuals it is the doctors and their educators and that they have allowed a system to develop that is not evidence based and is counter to their oaths and the reason they practice.

so you are saying that we should put our faith and trust in a system that has not worked, is not working, and is to blame for the lack of information that women have? (the whole letting our caregivers inform us thing is what I mean of course...)
We have a for profit system in most countries and we definately have it here (i am talking mostly the US here so sorry to those that arent from here i am going to be US centric in this comment) how could we or should we be expected to put that responsibility into their hands?

you are advocating this instead of having women empower themselves and take control of their own life, their own choices, and their own births?

ETA:

In a perfect world... we should be able to trust that our caregivers will give us the care and education that we need. We should be able to have them help us understand our choices. But we dont live there.... and we havent for a long time.

[Writerbird]

Can I declare you both right?

I was in the middle of reading book #7 when a dear friend (a strong, smart woman) accepted an induction on her exact due date because her doctor - whom she trusted implicitly - said it was safe, that the chemicals were just like the ones her body made. She'd spent nine months hearing from her mother that the women in her family always went early. This repetition convinced my friend that she was "late" at exactly 40 weeks. Heck, she was sure she was at 40 weeks in the first place because the sonogram technician said so, even though she wasn't quite sure of her dates.

She ended up with painful labor, an internal monitor, and ultimately a c-section... just like my "hippie" books said she would.

She trusted the technicians and the doctors. Does that make her stupid or bad? No.

Does she wish her doctor had fully informed her about inductions? Yes.

Would he have done so? Probably not. He really believes they're 100% safe and natural.

Was it her responsibility to have done the reading that might have told her otherwise?

Your answer to that may vary.

[3cuties]

Originally Posted by almadianna

so you are saying that we should put our faith and trust in a system that has not worked, is not working, and is to blame for the lack of information that women have? (the whole letting our caregivers inform us thing is what I mean of course...)
We have a for profit system in most countries and we definately have it here (i am talking mostly the US here so sorry to those that arent from here i am going to be US centric in this comment) how could we or should we be expected to put that responsibility into their hands?

you are advocating this instead of having women empower themselves and take control of their own life, their own choices, and their own births?

No, I have never once advocated that so I am not sure where you get that. What I am saying is lay blame where it is due. Criticize where the criticism is due. Attacking other women and patting our selves on the backs doesn't get us anywhere.

Women have a right to be presented with full choices.

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by 3cuties

No, I have never once advocated that so I am not sure where you get that. What I am saying is lay blame where it is due. Criticize where the criticism is due. Attacking other women and patting our selves on the backs doesn't get us anywhere.

Women have a right to be presented with full choices.

well when you say that midwives/doctors/caregivers should present us with choices and that women should not be held responsible for doing our own research you are basically putting trust and responsibility in a flawed system that isnt working already.

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by Writerbird

Can I declare you both right?

I was in the middle of reading book #7 when a dear friend (a strong, smart woman) accepted an induction on her exact due date because her doctor - whom she trusted implicitly - said it was safe, that the chemicals were just like the ones her body made. She'd spent nine months hearing from her mother that the women in her family always went early. This repetition convinced my friend that she was "late" at exactly 40 weeks. Heck, she was sure she was at 40 weeks in the first place because the sonogram technician said so, even though she wasn't quite sure of her dates.

She ended up with painful labor, an internal monitor, and ultimately a c-section... just like my "hippie" books said she would.

She trusted the technicians and the doctors. Does that make her stupid or bad? No.

Does she wish her doctor had fully informed her about inductions? Yes.

Would he have done so? Probably not. He really believes they're 100% safe and natural.

Was it her responsibility to have done the reading that might have told her otherwise?

Your answer to that may vary.

I am sorry for your friend and to me it proves my point, but I know that I see it differently that other people may see it.. and it is ok. I think that different opinions are the reason that we are all here on MDC. We dont just take what we are given at face value... most of us are pretty opinionated I would say.

[3cuties]

Originally Posted by almadianna

well when you say that midwives/doctors/caregivers should present us with choices and that women should not be held responsible for doing our own research you are basically putting trust and responsibility in a flawed system that isnt working already.

I am not sure why you get that meaning. Because no, that is not what that means -- even the way you re-write it.

What it means is -- we deserve to have a medical/birth system that is evidenced based.

What it means -- I will say it again is that I do not blame women for getting caught up in a system that is designed to catch them up. I won't participate in saying, "well I did this, so they should too", because I have been there and I know how it happens. I have seen very smart educated and determined women end up there.

What it means is I blame the doctors and their educators and I want the system to change from the inside, from the top down.

[LemonPie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3cuties
Actually your posts do judge them. And people cannot own their own "choices" without having full knowledge. There is not full disclosure in the current medical model but yet people believe there is.

almadianna:
i think this is the crucial point where we differ in opinion. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to get full knowledge because letting others give us this information is what got us in this situation in the first place.

I think the problem lies in the fact that "well-informed" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Some women read the What to Expect series and consider themselves "well-informed". Some simply just don't KNOW to question what their docs tell them. Some are so busy struggling to survive that sitting down to Google something or going to a public library is simply out of the question. And then there's us MDC mamas who question everyone and everything

Especially when it comes to women's health and childbirth issues, it's can be extremely difficult to find "the truth" as it were. Part of the problem is that there is no one-size-fit-all approach to the topic. Part of it is that there is NOT full disclosure in the medical profession. A huge part of it is our culture and media.

And some people just simply don't WANT to know. They'd prefer to continue on living in their little epidurals-are-safe-lah-lah-lah world and they get really angry if you disrupt that bubble, even if it isn't THEIR bubble you're disrupting. I was accused of fear-mongering just yesterday on another (non MDC) board because I gave a mother a few facts about c-section risks. I find this a lot on mainstream boards with similar topics: breastfeeding, induction, caesarean, parenting, etc. You name it, there's a controversy. And if you have FACTS to support your statements, you are dismissed as using "fear techniques" or "scare tactics" or compared to a certain group of WW II soldiers.

Jen

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by 3cuties

I am not sure why you get that meaning. Because no, that is not what that means -- even the way you re-write it.

What it means is -- we deserve to have a medical/birth system that is evidenced based.

What it means -- I will say it again is that I do not blame women for getting caught up in a system that is designed to catch them up. I won't participate in saying, "well I did this, so they should too", because I have been there and I know how it happens. I have seen very smart educated and determined women end up there.

What it means is I blame the doctors and their educators and I want the system to change from the inside, from the top down.

We totally do deserve it. But we dont have one and we cant expect to have one with a for profit based medical system.

I blame them for the current situation we are in now and I too want it to change, but I cannot blame them for individual decisions that women make and I can expect women to take control if they chose to. It is possible if they want to. If they dont, they have that right as well. But we cannot just go around blaming society for it completely when we live in a world where we have options and information and libraries that we all have access to.

[3cuties]

Originally Posted by almadianna

We totally do deserve it. But we dont have one and we cant expect to have one with a for profit based medical system.

I blame them for the current situation we are in now and I too want it to change, but I cannot blame them for individual decisions that women make and I can expect women to take control if they chose to. It is possible if they want to. If they dont, they have that right as well. But we cannot just go around blaming society for it completely when we live in a world where we have options and information and libraries that we all have access to.

So how is that productive? To blame women who get caught up in it? Instead of critiquing what is the cause? How does that win women over or convince them? It doesn't.

Pushed, Business of Being Born, A Thinking Women's Guide -- all approach it in a way that looks at the systems and critques the system. It does not lay blame on the individual -- why? Because the problem is bigger than the individual. No one is going around "blaming" society as you say. Your argument that there are options and information and libraries does not get past my argument and others -- what about women who don't even know to look for the information? Who do not know to question? They won't go there b/c it doesn't occur to them.

But I just do not see it being productive to vent about women who get epidurals. If a woman who was considering questioning the system ventured onto MDC and saw this thread? How would she feel?

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by 2Bugs

Especially when it comes to women's health and childbirth issues, it's can be extremely difficult to find "the truth" as it were. Part of the problem is that there is no one-size-fit-all approach to the topic. Part of it is that there is NOT full disclosure in the medical profession. A huge part of it is our culture and media.


Jen

this is why i wouldnt even want them giving out information about choices to women, i dont trust them.

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by 3cuties

So how is that productive? To blame women who get caught up in it? Instead of critiquing what is the cause? How does that win women over or convince them? It doesn't.

Pushed, Business of Being Born, A Thinking Women's Guide -- all approach it in a way that looks at the systems and critques the system. It does not lay blame on the individual -- why? Because the problem is bigger than the individual. No one is going around "blaming" society as you say. Your argument that there are options and information and libraries does not get past my argument and others -- what about women who don't even know to look for the information? Who do not know to question? They won't go there b/c it doesn't occur to them.

But I just do not see it being productive to vent about women who get epidurals. If a woman who was considering questioning the system ventured onto MDC and saw this thread? How would she feel?

I dont think anyone is NOT critiquing it, but it is also being said that we should take control. Take it back.

I dont understand how someone would NOT question it, it is something that is a reflex in human beings... this making sure that we survive. It is instinctual. Isnt it?

If a women who was thinking about questioning the system saw this she would feel validated, that she is right in her decision to not just let people tell her what to do.

[3cuties]

Originally Posted by almadianna

IIf a women who was thinking about questioning the system saw this she would feel validated, that she is right in her decision to not just let people tell her what to do.

Not one who has perhaps had an elective induction or epidural gone bad. Your posts already feel attacking to me in that respect.

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by 3cuties

Not one who has perhaps had an elective induction or epidural gone bad. Your posts already feel attacking to me in that respect.

If she had a bad experience and is looking for a different experience (which is what I think you mean) I dont see how she would feel attacked at all. She probably is here because she is looking for something better and more information... my posts have done nothing more than applaud this.

[3cuties]

Originally Posted by almadianna

If she had a bad experience and is looking for a different experience (which is what I think you mean) I dont see how she would feel attacked at all. She probably is here because she is looking for something better and more information... my posts have done nothing more than applaud this.

They do lay blame for a previous experience.

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by 3cuties

They do lay blame for a previous experience.

you dont think that someone who didnt know any better would admit that their experience could have been avoided if they did know better?

Most of my friends who had bad experience and have now turned to the dark side (lol) readily admit that it was all based on their choices. Hell the things that went wrong in my case I readily admit that it was all me not finding information about it (mostly about jaundice in newborns and how to handle it). I dont see why this taking responsibility thing is a bad word.

[3cuties]

Originally Posted by almadianna

you dont think that someone who didnt know any better would admit that their experience could have been avoided if they did know better?

Most of my friends who had bad experience and have now turned to the dark side (lol) readily admit that it was all based on their choices. Hell the things that went wrong in my case I readily admit that it was all me not finding information about it (mostly about jaundice in newborns and how to handle it). I dont see why this taking responsibility thing is a bad word.

Maybe it could have been avoided, it is not a definite nothing is. But that is not the point, the blame and critique does not belong on them.

In 1999 when I hired a midwife and told him I wanted a natural birth, all he had to do (because he had all the experience and knowledge) was to ask me -- great, how do you plan to do this? How are you preparing? But he didn't -- so I assumed that was a validation of my choice. I told him I was taking the class at the hospital and they taught Lamazae breathing -- he said great. He could of said/done more. He could have offered me more information. Because his office that I saw him at was an outpost at the Planned Parenthood (where I received my prenatal care) there were no posters or information on preparing for natural birth that one often sees in a midwife's office. He knew it was my first birth. So yes, I do hold him responsible for not giving me the necessary education. Ultimately, the epidural was the only intervention (including IV of course) that I had in a very long difficult posterior labor, for which I am so thankful to him. But he had all the power and info and he did not share it. Could I have done research? I don't know if it existed in 1999 on the internet, maybe. I know the Bradley book was written decades ago, but my husband and I were separated at the time so I do not know if that would have appealed to me. Anyway, perhaps I could have avoided it, perhaps. But most women go to a careprovider for a reason -- for their knowledge and education -- and in my scenario he just did not share it.