Unborn Babies and Original Sin - Page 2

[StacyL]

Originally Posted by Coyote star

Respectfully, the Church has, at some points, theorized about the existance of Limbo, but never officially taught it. I think it was postulated by St. Thomas Aquinas or Augustine, I can't remember which, both of whom were brilliant theologians, but not a Pope speaking ex cathedra. It began to take on force of teaching (lowercase) in the absence of any definitive Teaching from the Church. It was never a formal doctrine of the Faith, and the faithful never had to, nor do they now, believe in it.

While it is not an ex cathedra defined piece of Catholic dogma, it is far more that an "optional" piece of doctrine, and its significance should not be downplayed. Much of Catholic doctrine is binding upon the faithful, though still not defined as dogma.

Here is a good article on the seriousness of the teaching of Limbo upon the faithful, and it's history:

http://www.cfnews.org/Limbo.htm

Excerpt:

The traditional Catholic doctrine of Limbo is in a higher category than that of a dismissible theological hypothesis. It is part of Catholic teaching since ancient times and is enshrined in magisterial pronouncements.
Pope Pius VI’s famous Apostolic Constitution Auctorem fidei, which condemned the Errors of the Synod of Pistoia, denounced the rejection of Limbo as “false, rash, slanderous to Catholic schools.”2
It is de fide — an unchangeable article of Faith — that souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific vision.4

[Coyote star]

Thanks for the article, StacyL! I'll check it out when I've got some time.

[ChasingPeace]

OK, now I'm confused and I'm a cradle Catholic! I thought that the purpose of baptism was to initiate someone into their journey to salvation. I recently talked to a priest about whether the baptisms of my dc were valid. My Mom baptized them with my consent (complicated--my dh was OK with them being baptized, but not with being raised Catholic). The priest told me that this sounded like an act of superstition because it was not my intent to be initiating our dc into the Church, on their journey to salvation (reconcilation with God from our state of separation) through the sacraments.

[lisalou]

I wonder if this is a pre-Vatican II post-Vatican II issue. My mother was definitely raised to believe in Limbo and she prayed in school for their souls. Her daughter (me) was definitely taught limbo didn't exist and the view we were given of baptism was much more like the one you got ChasingPeace.

[Coyote star]

Originally Posted by ChasingPeace

OK, now I'm confused and I'm a cradle Catholic! I thought that the purpose of baptism was to initiate someone into their journey to salvation. I recently talked to a priest about whether the baptisms of my dc were valid. My Mom baptized them with my consent (complicated--my dh was OK with them being baptized, but not with being raised Catholic). The priest told me that this sounded like an act of superstition because it was not my intent to be initiating our dc into the Church, on their journey to salvation (reconcilation with God from our state of separation) through the sacraments.

Here's what I know from teaching DD her catechism:
Baptism removes the stain of Original Sin and infuses the soul with the gift of Sanctifying grace, without which the soul cannot enter God's presence.

The Church recognizes all baptisms (including ones done by laypeople, under certain circumstances) as valid and long as they are done in the Trinitarian formula.

As for your children's baptisms, I have no idea if they were valid or not, since I don't know what words your mother used.

Hope this helps.

[Smokering]

I'm almost certainly going to be the lone voice here, but I can find no Biblical evidence that unborn babies go to heaven. If God has a different method of salvation for the unborn/very young, it isn't mentioned in the Bible.

[cfiddlinmama]

What StacyL said. Thank you for wording it so well!

Jesus said: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John ch3 verse 5.

Baptism removes Original Sin from the soul, infuses us with Sanctifying Grace and makes us a Child of God and heir to the kingdom of Heaven.

The Church has always taught that you should baptize miscarried/stillborn babies though. We don't know for sure when the soul leaves the body and there is hope that in God's mercy there is still the possibility of baptism for that soul. God is not a monster! He is very merciful and we cannot know His mind.

Peace~

[Coyote star]

Originally Posted by Smokering

I'm almost certainly going to be the lone voice here, but I can find no Biblical evidence that unborn babies go to heaven. If God has a different method of salvation for the unborn/very young, it isn't mentioned in the Bible.

True, but the question was originally posed about Catholic teaching, and Catholics don't subscribe to sola scriptura. We have Sacred Tradition to go along with Sacred Scripture. In other words, for Catholics, "it isn't in the Bible" doesn't necessarily mean a thing won't/can't happen.

[Smokering]

Actually, the question was addressed

For those of you who believe that life starts at conception and original sin (namely Catholics, but I'm sure others as well)

I come under 'others'. But yes, I'm familiar with the fact that Catholics don't hold to Sola Scriptura.

[Coyote star]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Actually, the question was addressed


I come under 'others'. But yes, I'm familiar with the fact that Catholics don't hold to Sola Scriptura.

Fair enough. Skimming through, I saw only "Catholics", and not "others". My bad!

[spero]

"Limbo" is not, and was never, an officially defined teaching of the Church. It was a theological hypothesis and has been stated as such. Even Pope Benedict says so. He was in favor of abandoning this flawed hypothesis over twenty years ago.

From Catholic News Service:
Closing the doors of limbo: Theologians say it was hypothesis

A conviction that babies who died without baptism go to heaven was not something promoted only by people who want to believe that God saves everyone no matter what they do.

Pope John Paul II believed it. And so does Pope Benedict.

In the 1985 book-length interview, "The Ratzinger Report," the future Pope Benedict said, "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally -- and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as prefect of the congregation -- I would abandon it, since it was only a theological hypothesis. ..."

Originally Posted by Coyote star

Purgatory is a defined dogma of the Church. It is the place where final sanctification takes place.

Originally Posted by StacyL

Purgatory is not eternal, and is a place of temporary expiation for unforgiven venial sins or forgiven venial sins that have not been fully satisfied in God's Justice.

Just to note - Pope John Paul II clarified Purgatory as a state (spiritual cleansing) of being, not an actual place.

Personally - I believe we live out Purgatory here on earth. JMO.

Originally Posted by cfiddlinmama

The Church has always taught that you should baptize miscarried/stillborn babies though.

Interesting. I have heard stories of heartbroken mamas who begged to have their miscarried/stillborn babes baptized, and were refused the ritual.

[theretohere]

The unborn are stained with original sin- that's why we believe it's so important to attend church during pregnancy. In the Bible it talks about John the Baptist leaping in his mother's womb. Also, taking communion during pregnancy shares it, and it's benefit with the unborn.

[spero]

Oh ... and before Stacy jumps all over me with the "Official Vatican Document" on this subject, here is an excerpt:

This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium, even if that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis. However, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992), the theory of limbo is not mentioned. Rather, the Catechism teaches that infants who die without baptism are entrusted by the Church to the mercy of God, as is shown in the specific funeral rite for such children.

[Coyote star]

Originally Posted by spero

Oh ... and before Stacy jumps all over me with the "Official Vatican Document" on this subject, here is an excerpt:

That's what I thought, too. I checked the Catechism, and didn't see that it was officially defined.

[StacyL]

+

The traditional Catholic doctrine of Limbo is in a higher category than that of a dismissible theological hypothesis. It is part of Catholic teaching since ancient times and is enshrined in magisterial pronouncements.

Pope Pius VI’s famous Apostolic Constitution Auctorem fidei, which condemned the Errors of the Synod of Pistoia, denounced the rejection of Limbo as “false, rash, slanderous to Catholic schools.”2

It is de fide — an unchangeable article of Faith — that souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific vision.4

[spero]

So - the Vatican document contradicts itself.

That's hardly surprising.

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by lisalou

I wonder if this is a pre-Vatican II post-Vatican II issue. My mother was definitely raised to believe in Limbo and she prayed in school for their souls. Her daughter (me) was definitely taught limbo didn't exist and the view we were given of baptism was much more like the one you got ChasingPeace.

Probably. The current stance is basically in between the two. Catholics aren't required to believe in Limbo, but the Church also hasn't said officially there is no Limbo.

It's just not offered as an official possibility anymore, though it's not officially denied as a possibility.

It gets confusing.

I figure unborn babies have souls so they have Original Sin, but since they have no chance of being baptized, I assume they go to Heaven.

[ledzepplon]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

I figure unborn babies have souls so they have Original Sin, but since they have no chance of being baptized, I assume they go to Heaven.

Yes, this is what I figure as well.

[lisalou]

I think that's where baptism through desire comes into play.

[spero]

You are absolutely right. The Sacrament is present through our desire & faith, and God's grace. The ritual is the celebration of that already-present desire and grace, and a ritual in itself will never produce a Sacrament.