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Unborn Babies and Original Sin - Page 3

post #41 of 54
I was under the impression that baptism by desire only applied to adults?
post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
I was under the impression that baptism by desire only applied to adults?
I don't know. I do know that people who postulate that babies killed by abortion gain martyrdom, and therefore baptism by blood, but I've heard that the strict sense of baptism by blood means one was killed for being a Christian.

However, the Church recognizes the Holy Innocents, who didn't die because they were Christian, and didn't die FOR Jesus, per se., but are still martyrs....so maybe there is precedence for it.
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote star View Post
I don't know. I do know that people who postulate that babies killed by abortion gain martyrdom, and therefore baptism by blood, but I've heard that the strict sense of baptism by blood means one was killed for being a Christian.

However, the Church recognizes the Holy Innocents, who didn't die because they were Christian, and didn't die FOR Jesus, per se., but are still martyrs....so maybe there is precedence for it.
Does the Almighty split hairs *that* much?

I know you can bury miscarried and stillborn babies in sanctified ground, if that means anything.

IMO, the theory of Limbo is a cruelty that was used to scare new parents into Baptising ASAP instead of being wishy washy and waiting around. If not we should be holding Baptisms at the time of birth.
post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzywan View Post
IMO, the theory of Limbo is a cruelty that was used to scare new parents into Baptising ASAP instead of being wishy washy and waiting around. If not we should be holding Baptisms at the time of birth.
Actually, all of the pre-Vatican II catechisms define waiting more than a month for a baptism as a mortal sin on the part of the child's parents.
post #45 of 54
We are no longer living in pre-VII days, Stacy.
post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by spero View Post
We are no longer living in pre-VII days, Stacy.


Yeah, I guess me and the other millions of Traditional Catholics didn't get the message that the rules no longer apply.

Boy, that "Springtime" sure is beautiful!
post #47 of 54
There's a reason it's called PRE-Vatican II.

Everybody makes mistakes ... even bishops.
post #48 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by spero View Post
Everybody makes mistakes ... even bishops.
Hoo boy - truer words were never spoken! Add Popes to the list too.
post #49 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzywan View Post
Does the Almighty split hairs *that* much?
I wouldn't presume to know what the Almighty does or doesn't do. The last time I did that, I ended up casting binding spells during a waning moon to some personal goddess I'd created to suit my "personal truth"
post #50 of 54
I was just wondering if this was a strictly catholic discussion?

op... I personally believe that God is merciful. I do believe that no one will come to the Father without Jesus. No one. I dont know when the age of accountability is but I reckon its a personal thing between God and the individual. I think that goes for the unborn and very young. God knows them thru and thru. I cant say whether they will be in heaven or not. Its not my heaven, lol.

Quote:
I'm almost certainly going to be the lone voice here, but I can find no Biblical evidence that unborn babies go to heaven. If God has a different method of salvation for the unborn/very young, it isn't mentioned in the Bible.
Like I said the only way for anyone to come to the Father is thru Jesus Christ. I think its just universal, biblically speaking. I think its just that simple.

gen
post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote star View Post
I wouldn't presume to know what the Almighty does or doesn't do. The last time I did that, I ended up casting binding spells during a waning moon to some personal goddess I'd created to suit my "personal truth"
Me too...amoung other things ><
post #52 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by spero View Post
You are absolutely right. The Sacrament is present through our desire & faith, and God's grace. The ritual is the celebration of that already-present desire and grace, and a ritual in itself will never produce a Sacrament.

Wow... that's really well worded. Thank you!
post #53 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by StacyL View Post
Actually, all of the pre-Vatican II catechisms define waiting more than a month for a baptism as a mortal sin on the part of the child's parents.
Yeah, but a month is a long time and back in the day many children were lost in the first few hours, days and weeks of life.

Also, mortal sin is on the soul of the parent who waits - as we know, people have indulged in mortal sin frequently, throughout the ages. I think the idea that the *child* would suffer is far more psychologically compelling than the idea that waiting was a sin for the parent only. (i.e. I indulge in all kinds of risky behavior that I would never expose my baby to).

The parent can always repent and be absolved of that mortal sin - once the baby is dead and in Limbo, nothing can be done.
post #54 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzywan View Post
Yeah, but a month is a long time and back in the day many children were lost in the first few hours, days and weeks of life.

Also, mortal sin is on the soul of the parent who waits - as we know, people have indulged in mortal sin frequently, throughout the ages. I think the idea that the *child* would suffer is far more psychologically compelling than the idea that waiting was a sin for the parent only. (i.e. I indulge in all kinds of risky behavior that I would never expose my baby to).

The parent can always repent and be absolved of that mortal sin - once the baby is dead and in Limbo, nothing can be done.
It's not just PRE-Vatican II, either! I was raised Catholic (Orthodox now - four years ago today!) and I was baptized at three weeks old. Now, given this was 1969, and maybe the Vatican II stuff hadn't had much time to work its way down.
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