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S/O - Should 16 Year Old's Be....? - Page 4  

post #61 of 80

I agree...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorganRiley View Post
noooooooooooo to all of the above

because I have a 15 year old

they may be physically maturing...but mentally/emotionally...they arent adults by a long shot
And I have a 17 3/4 yo (will be 18 in March) and a 15 1/2 year old. It seems that many of the comments here are from mamas with young ones, often with the easy ability to remember how they "would have been" given these freedoms when they were teens.

Although I agree that any given individual could handle all of these responsibilities, especially with adequate support, (including teen motherhood) I feel we should embrace that fact that we, as a society, are able to allow our children the opportunity and time to grow and mature. I celebrate the fact that my children will have the chance to experience an extended maturation period.

The "emerging adult" brain isn't even fully developed until the early 20's, or so say the counselors in my daughter's MIP class. (Yes, that would be minor in possession, a charge she faced due to her immaturity and lack of judgement.)

So live, learn, experience, and grow? Yes. But 16 as a benchmark? No.

Jill H.

(lucky mom to Amelia 17, Camille 15, Evan 12, and Gracie 10)
post #62 of 80
-be able to vote? No.
-be allowed to legally drink? Yes (possibly with some restrictions, I'm not sure).
-be tried as adults for all crimes? No, not all crimes.
-be allowed to serve in the Armed Forces if they wish? No.
post #63 of 80
No.
No.
Some. It depends on what bad thing they've done.
No.
post #64 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by acegmom View Post
I feel we should embrace that fact that we, as a society, are able to allow our children the opportunity and time to grow and mature. I celebrate the fact that my children will have the chance to experience an extended maturation period.
But the unfortunate fact is that, your specific children aside, we as a society don't allow our children the opportunity and time to grow and mature. Instead we stifle them and treat them as undesirables. Look at the teen pregnancy "problem." Highly fertile people + high sex drive = you're going to have a few pregnancies. Instead of wringing our hands about it, loading teens down with birth control and ineffective abstinence lectures, why not embrace it? Why not allow young people to build families and committed relationships? How much of the "teen immaturity" so often cited is really the result of biological adults being awkwardly stuffed into children's social roles?

I don't think the brain maturation issue is really valid, because the human brain never stops maturing until death. A 16 yr old's brain is not the same as a 30 yr old's brain. A 30 yr old's brain is not the same as a 60 yr old's brain. I don't think the development of a constantly-changing organ is sufficient grounds for determination of civil rights.
post #65 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
I don't think the development of a constantly-changing organ is sufficient grounds for determination of civil rights.
post #66 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
But the unfortunate fact is that, your specific children aside, we as a society don't allow our children the opportunity and time to grow and mature. Instead we stifle them and treat them as undesirables. Look at the teen pregnancy "problem." Highly fertile people + high sex drive = you're going to have a few pregnancies. Instead of wringing our hands about it, loading teens down with birth control and ineffective abstinence lectures, why not embrace it? Why not allow young people to build families and committed relationships? How much of the "teen immaturity" so often cited is really the result of biological adults being awkwardly stuffed into children's social roles?

I don't think the brain maturation issue is really valid, because the human brain never stops maturing until death. A 16 yr old's brain is not the same as a 30 yr old's brain. A 30 yr old's brain is not the same as a 60 yr old's brain. I don't think the development of a constantly-changing organ is sufficient grounds for determination of civil rights.
post #67 of 80
Well, according to a thread I just read in N&CE, apparently they should be able to do all of them since there is no problem with them being sentences to life imprisonment for crimes they may or may not have committed. :
post #68 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Purity♥Lake~ View Post
I think we need more education for voters, not more restrictions.
I took a class in economics and government

My senior year in high school.
It would be nice if everyone had to take a class that taught them even the basics of government and politics


I think education is the important missing factor.
Well, that and social conscience.

But requiring education IS a restriction -- exactly the kind of restriction I wholeheartedly support. I think there should be an exam -- not a ridicuously hard exam, but an exam that shows that you understand basic facts about how government works before you can vote. Offer the exam in eleventy different languages if you want, but there needs to be an exam. I cannot believe we allow people to vote who believe the government is paying them to have babies, or that universal health care is "free." I have heard both statements with my own ears from people old enough to know better -- and the people saying these things will vote. I don't care what your position is as long as it's informed ... but these are not informed stances. These people are essentially voting for leaders of a fairy tale nation that doesn't exist, yet their votes count as much as mine or yours, and that scares the heck out of me.
post #69 of 80
I disagree.

Ideally I'd like people to be informed, but that's not realistic. It is impossible to make education 100% objective and to make everyone understand.

If people want to vote because they like someone's shoes, that's their right. We can't get peopel to vote for the "right" reasons.
post #70 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneymoonBaby View Post
But requiring education IS a restriction -- exactly the kind of restriction I wholeheartedly support. I think there should be an exam -- not a ridicuously hard exam, but an exam that shows that you understand basic facts about how government works before you can vote. Offer the exam in eleventy different languages if you want, but there needs to be an exam. I cannot believe we allow people to vote who believe the government is paying them to have babies, or that universal health care is "free." I have heard both statements with my own ears from people old enough to know better -- and the people saying these things will vote. I don't care what your position is as long as it's informed ... but these are not informed stances. These people are essentially voting for leaders of a fairy tale nation that doesn't exist, yet their votes count as much as mine or yours, and that scares the heck out of me.
1 Why would you think that a 16 yr old would not be as informed or moreso than an 18 yr old? If anything, the number of uninformed voters is indication that age requirement doesn't result in a more informed electorate.

2 I think any attempt to mandate "educated" voters would be quite biased. You want voters to understand that universal healthcare isn't free. Well, it is free, to the consumer. Which is what most people mean by "free." Some people assert that it's more costly in taxes... but this is a hotly disputed assertion. What one person thinks all voters should know, is not what someone else thinks all voters should know. I could say that all voters should know about the economic history of the U.S. and the history of corporate deregulation (which I think they should). Someone else would say that's biased... you're never going to get neutral informational education, when you're talking about politics.

3 Do y'all know the song "Eve of Destruction"? This thread reminds me of it. They're old enough to kill, but not for voting...

I used to have a line from that song in my sig. Maybe I should bring it back.
post #71 of 80
-be able to vote? NO
-be allowed to legally drink? NO
-be tried as adults for all crimes? Depends on the crime and circumstances
-be allowed to serve in the Armed Forces if they wish?NO
post #72 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_lissa View Post
I really don't understand people who say 16 year olds should be charged as an adult at least in some cases, but not have the right to vote or drink, etc.
COuld someone who voted this way, please explain it to me?
post #73 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
1 Why would you think that a 16 yr old would not be as informed or moreso than an 18 yr old? If anything, the number of uninformed voters is indication that age requirement doesn't result in a more informed electorate.

2 I think any attempt to mandate "educated" voters would be quite biased. You want voters to understand that universal healthcare isn't free. Well, it is free, to the consumer. Which is what most people mean by "free." Some people assert that it's more costly in taxes... but this is a hotly disputed assertion. What one person thinks all voters should know, is not what someone else thinks all voters should know. I could say that all voters should know about the economic history of the U.S. and the history of corporate deregulation (which I think they should). Someone else would say that's biased... you're never going to get neutral informational education, when you're talking about politics.

3 Do y'all know the song "Eve of Destruction"? This thread reminds me of it. They're old enough to kill, but not for voting...

I used to have a line from that song in my sig. Maybe I should bring it back.

I didn't say the exam needed to explain specifically that universal healthcare isn't free -- I was using that as an example of a position I believe comes from a shockingly prevalent ignorance of the reality that NOTHING is free -- SOMEONE is paying for that healthcare, and that someone IS you, even if you're no longer writing a check at the point of service.

The types of questions I'd support being on an exam are very basic -- Things like, "What is the primary source of the government's funding?" A) Citizens Pay Taxes to Fund Programs OR B) The Government Prints Money When it Needs Funds OR C) Uncle Sam Writes A Big Check At the Holidays.

If you don't understand that EVERY government program is financed BY THE PEOPLE (i.e. YOU), then you shouldn't be voting, IMO.

Another good question would be something like "Does the Constitution Set Limits on the Government, or the People?" A) Government B) People C) Both or D) Neither. I think a lot of people believe the Constitution tells citizens and state governments what we can and can't do, when really, it was meant to limit the federal government's power.

I'm just advocating trying to ensure people have a basic understanding of the way our country works, not trying to ensure they think a certain way. To use universal health coverage again as an example: If you understand that socialized healthcare isn't free and want to support it anyway because you believe everyone should be covered even if it might mean making some sacrifices, I can respect that (I disagree, but I respect it). Or if you've seen numbers that indicate that taxes won't go up because certain other costs will be offset, and support universal healthcare because you think it will be a more efficient way of managing care in our nation, then I can also respect that point of view (though I disagree), because it shows an understanding of how government funding works.

But if you think "FREE HEALTHCARE!" and vote for the candidates who promote it believing that healthcare will ACTUALLY be free, i.e. no one will pay for it at all anymore and everyone will magically have great health care AND more money in their pockets, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you, and I think you should be prevented from voting. Likewise, if you think the Constitution is all about regulating people's religion, guns or bigotry .... you should not vote. (The Constitution is intended to prevent GOVERNMENT from limiting OR engaging in those things .... not the people.)
post #74 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneymoonBaby View Post
I didn't say the exam needed to explain specifically that universal healthcare isn't free -- I was using that as an example of a position I believe comes from a shockingly prevalent ignorance of the reality that NOTHING is free -- SOMEONE is paying for that healthcare, and that someone IS you, even if you're no longer writing a check at the point of service.
I'm Canadian and all, and we say 'free' healthcare, but we all know our taxes pay for it. I would say it's a colloquialism.
post #75 of 80
I vote NO on all four counts.
post #76 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneymoonBaby View Post
I didn't say the exam needed to explain specifically that universal healthcare isn't free -- I was using that as an example of a position I believe comes from a shockingly prevalent ignorance of the reality that NOTHING is free -- SOMEONE is paying for that healthcare, and that someone IS you, even if you're no longer writing a check at the point of service.

The types of questions I'd support being on an exam are very basic -- Things like, "What is the primary source of the government's funding?" A) Citizens Pay Taxes to Fund Programs OR B) The Government Prints Money When it Needs Funds OR C) Uncle Sam Writes A Big Check At the Holidays.

If you don't understand that EVERY government program is financed BY THE PEOPLE (i.e. YOU), then you shouldn't be voting, IMO.

Another good question would be something like "Does the Constitution Set Limits on the Government, or the People?" A) Government B) People C) Both or D) Neither. I think a lot of people believe the Constitution tells citizens and state governments what we can and can't do, when really, it was meant to limit the federal government's power.

I'm just advocating trying to ensure people have a basic understanding of the way our country works, not trying to ensure they think a certain way. To use universal health coverage again as an example: If you understand that socialized healthcare isn't free and want to support it anyway because you believe everyone should be covered even if it might mean making some sacrifices, I can respect that (I disagree, but I respect it). Or if you've seen numbers that indicate that taxes won't go up because certain other costs will be offset, and support universal healthcare because you think it will be a more efficient way of managing care in our nation, then I can also respect that point of view (though I disagree), because it shows an understanding of how government funding works.

But if you think "FREE HEALTHCARE!" and vote for the candidates who promote it believing that healthcare will ACTUALLY be free, i.e. no one will pay for it at all anymore and everyone will magically have great health care AND more money in their pockets, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you, and I think you should be prevented from voting. Likewise, if you think the Constitution is all about regulating people's religion, guns or bigotry .... you should not vote. (The Constitution is intended to prevent GOVERNMENT from limiting OR engaging in those things .... not the people.)
See, I could have guessed that you weren't a universal healthcare fan. I didn't know, but I guessed, based on the words you used. That is the sticky issue, again, about the exams. Even the way something is phrased can be prejudicial (and I'm sure you don't think that your example was prejudicial--but it isn't neutral. the way I would phrase it wouldn't be neutral, either. there is no neutral, here).

You are right about the constitution--it limits government, not individuals. But government is selected by individuals (voters), so... individuals are affected as well.

I think everyone should be informed on the basic workings of government--but I don't trust aforementioned government to regulate that, or to connect our suffrage rights to it.
post #77 of 80
From the perspective of a parent of an almost 16 year old:

-be able to vote?

My daughter was definitely ready and helped me with my ballot in the 2004 election; my son is absolutely not ready. There should be some other factor besides age, such as some sort of test of the child's interest and knowledge of the issues. My son has not yet had his adolescent political aakening but my daughter's happened when she was about fourteen and her knowledge and reasoning was sounder than many adults'.

-be allowed to legally drink?

Under parental superivison. My children's other parent is an alcoholic and I have seen many alcoholic tendencies in my own kids. I don't think they should ever be allowed to drink, but other kids might be ready and would be better off learning how their bodies react to the drug in a safe environment with people who care about them and will protect them.

-be tried as adults for all crimes?

Eff, no! My son's brain is not fully developed yet and he does not understand the consequences of his actions in the same way I, you, my daughter, and her 22 year old partner do.

-be allowed to serve in the Armed Forces if they wish?

No way! Children should not die for old men's political glory and financial gain! 21 year olds are children as far as this issue is concerned in my not so humble opinion. Killing babies doesn't prove who is right any more than playing basketball would.
post #78 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by FancyD View Post
I'm Canadian and all, and we say 'free' healthcare, but we all know our taxes pay for it. I would say it's a colloquialism.
Either Canadians are better informed than Americans about the workings of their government (which I wouldn't doubt, actually) or you are overly optimistic about the intelligence of your fellow countrymen. Because I know for a fact that here in America, there are large numbers of people without the most basic understanding of how our government functions. In fact, it's a huge national joke, with comedians like Jay Leno doing "Man on the Street" pop quizzes about really basic political knwoledge (who is the Vice President?) and multiple ADULTS failing miserably every time -- haha, so funny .... not. We also have a TV show called "Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader" or something like that, along the same lines -- mocking adults who lack elementary school-level knowledge.

The bottom line is that there are way too many VOTING people in America who shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a polling place. I know women who voted for Bill Clinton in the 1990s because they thought he was cute. Cute! I know Cuteness is my primary consideration when picking the leader of the free world. (/sarcasm) This year the Cuteness vote will go to Obama and Romney. Forget policy ... it's all about the Cute Factor. Or voting for someone because Oprah told you to ... or because Pat Robertson told you to ... it's all awful. Educate yourself on the issues you care about, and understand how our government works on a basic level ... that is what I hope for from people who vote. Unfortunately, a large number of American voters aren't meeting that standard. I think it's pathetic and I'd like to see it changed.
post #79 of 80
Canadians know that our healthcare system isn't 'free'. There are certainly issues, but we don't have to worry about our insurer denying a transplant.

You should check out Rick Mercer's 'Talking to Americans'
post #80 of 80
vote: maybe
drink: yes (I don't support a drinking age at all.)
tried as an adult: no- 16yos should be conisered minors, but the same case-by-case basis as used now to be tried as adults in some circumstances.
join the armed forces: no

The voting question I honestly don't think is a big deal. In 2 more years the individual will be able to vote no matter what you do; and many 16yos wouldn't bother voting anyway. I don't think that adding in 16 and 17yos to the voting pool will make a big difference in any of the elections.

16yos sometimes don't have the long-term thinking capacity as older teens and young adults. I think that lots of kids would want to sign up for the armed forces for the wrong reasons when they're too young to be able to fully think it through. Sign up at 16 and then you'll find yourself stuck if you want to get out in a few years. I don't think teenagers should be free to sign up to get themselves killed.
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