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Dealing with the circumcised males in your life: ramblings from an 18 year old son.

post #1 of 49
Thread Starter 
I have been reading this forum for a few weeks now, and I wanted to give my perspective of this issue.
Before I start, I wanted to give an idea where I am coming from.
I am an 18 year old male. Was circumcised for medical reasons, and sadly have a few bad scars from it. I am strongly against infant circumcision. I personally believe it should be illegal. I am from a teen puberty site, where there is much discussion on this issue. People who support circ and people who don’t. Boys that are cut, and boys that are not. (cut is the slang term my board uses when talking about circumcision) Boys who wanted to get circumcised, and have (and who are happy with the results), we even have 5 guys who are actively restoring! Mostly the board is anti-circ. Yet on our board people look at human rights, and functional issues (i.e. easier to masturbate) as the main reasons they are against circumcision. And like here, we have members from the US and the UK.


After reading many posts here I was surprised by the actions of some of the board members. There were a few mothers who were afraid that people would see their circumcised boy naked, and went out of their way to try and prevent that. Even worse then that, there are women in here that actually are trying to convince their husbands to restore!
From a circumcised guys perspective, one who does not know the difference of having a foreskin, one of the worst things about circumcision is that society thinks an uncircumcised man is broken and dirty. It makes me sick to realize that there are girls my age who think that a penis has to be circumcised. Or that society in general has such little respect for the natural male body. Through our lives men are either told it was good they were mutilated or that since they weren’t, there is something wrong with them.

The only thing worse then being cut up as a baby because you live in a society that says your natural body is wrong, is for having a new group of people tell you, “no, now you should be ashamed of this cut penis of yours.”

This whole mess started because parents and wives wanted their boys body to be a certain way. Being ashamed of your sons/husbands circumcised penis is just continuing the same kind of thing. (because the logic behind the circumcision culture is just as bad as the circumcisions themselves)

Celebrate, and be proud of the bodies of the males in your life, no matter if its been altered or not.

You know the REAL reason why circumcisions continue in the US? Its because men don’t feel confident about their bodies. If you raise a son (or treat a husband) to be proud of the body they have, then they will spread that same logic to the other men in their family. (Personally I believe, that the “vulnerability of men” article is a waay to simplified look on men who have grown up in a circumcision culture, and in the end could cause more misunderstanding between husband and wife) This not just about our physical conditions, but how we view ourselves and how we apply that to the people around us.

I don’t mean to offend anyone here, simply to let you know that this issue is a lot more complex then it may seem, and its important to take a double take on how our passions could sometimes cause negative effects.

Either way, thanks for listening Moms!!
post #2 of 49
Wow, I must say this is an eye opening post for me. Thank you for sharing, you are a rather wise young man


Jenny
post #3 of 49
Hey perspective, if you could shoot me the link to your forum in a PM, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm a guy and I'd like to have a place to discuss this issue with other men as well.

Anyway, while I agree, that insisting that a circumcised man must restore because he's "damaged goods" isn't morally right or healthy, I think you're missing a crucial component of why some women on this forum want their husbands to restore.

I'm not sure what you know about circumcision and it's potential (notice I said potential not guaranteed) effects on sexual intercourse, but many women want their husbands to restore so that sex isn't painful anymore! That's hardly a shallow reason. While no one should force anyone to restore, there have been countless stories told here again and again, of painful intercourse that was alleviated after the cut man restored. So you shouldn't look at the issue from one point of view.
post #4 of 49
I have no problem with your comments. In fact, I welcome them. You have given me a lot to think about and some insight into how I will raise my intact son. Also, how I will interact with my circumcized husband. I would never want him to think he isn't perfect just the way he is. I agree that this whole thing is a complicated issue for men. You're right. Men should be made to feel confident in their bodies, circumcized or not.
post #5 of 49
awesome post perspective !!

my DH is sadly circ'd b/c his mom falls prey to any Dr suggested procedure. If a Dr told her to cut off her breasts "just in case" she would. :
Here's the weird part, since DH's Dad is in his early 70s & born @ home in the rural PA area... I asked DH if his Dad was cut (we use that here too)... it took some time for DH to remember (as his Dad was kinda hung up on stuff like that)... DH remembered that HIS Dad was uncut- even weirder..
So you have his Dad uncut, DH cut, his 1st boy w/ his Ex is cut B/c the Bio-beyotch mom wanted it... seriously, I found her notes on that pregnancy when were cleaning out the attic & soon as she found out she was pg, she called to see if his ins would cover it..
DH tried to get her to change her mind but she said it was gross not to-
so then we found out we were having a boy, I said no way on the cutting & DH said he was so glad b/c after seeing the 1st kid's circ'd penis- he was forever grossed out.
so our DS is intact.
My DD's bio-dad is uncut as all the men in the generations before him..
now I met him as a Sr in Hi School & that was in the late 70s...
He had NO problems sleeping with women = many of them : in fact...
I have heard a great many women say that they don't like the idea of circ'ing their babies but it's "better for them in the long run since uncut penis' are ugly" ::
gross
You can thank the US medical field for instilling that "dirty & ugly" idea in peoples head..
so sad...
thanks again for your thoughts
post #6 of 49
The thing that makes me sad, from what I've learned and studied, is that as the years go on DH's penis is going to be more and more desensitized. The glans can begin to dry out and crack. Sex could become more painful for him (and me) and he may suffer from lack of desire and / or erectile dysfunction, all because of that circumcision he was subjected to against his will.

That makes me very, very sad. Not for me - but for him - because no man should have to experience that as a result of something that was inflicted on them. For that reason, I have no problem encouraging my dh to restore. I don't want to see HIM suffer in the future.

The more he finds out about what was done to him, the more he wants to restore because he wants to preserve what feeling he does have.

That said, I would never, ever make him feel "broken" or "less of a man" because he is circed. Right now, sex is great. I can only imagine how it is supposed to be, but it's great nonetheless.

Great post, perspective. Thanks!
post #7 of 49
Thank you for your insight. It was not offensive, and this issue is overwhelmingly complex and emotional. It's good to hear another male perspective. Most simply won't talk about it at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papai View Post
... but many women want their husbands to restore so that sex isn't painful anymore! That's hardly a shallow reason. While no one should force anyone to restore, there have been countless stories told here again and again, of painful intercourse that was alleviated after the cut man restored. So you shouldn't look at the issue from one point of view.
Thank you Papai!
My hubby and I are so glad to have found this forum, so glad to know about restoration. Period. When I was cut (3rd degree episiotomy), we had to deal with that-- Hubby and I, of course, assumed MY body was damaged beyond hope, or maybe we didn't love each other enough, or we were just doomed to no sex life. Now we know, but I had to bring it up to him, the best way I could and it did work out for the best. I "convinced" him to restore, if you want to put it that way. It has nothing to do with him being "damaged or dirty" it has to do with the actual physiology of him being circ'ed. What was done to me was not my choice, what was done to him was not his choice. But we have to deal with the consequences, as hard for both of us as it was to actually face it. I am not against my hubby, or his penis, and he's not against me, or my cut vulva. If that were the case, we wouldn't have gotten married (a year after the baby, we didn't even have sex on our wedding night).

It is now my mission to stop the medical community from hacking off healthy bits of babies for profit. What anyone wants to do with their own adult body is their business. But, they should have the knowledge of and the option to restore, and know that circ can cause problems for both man and woman. And it should be suggested for "female issues" like vaginal dryness, uti's after sex, painful, bloody intercourse. Instead, it is ignored and women are made to feel that it is our fault.

well, there is my button Hubby and I are only 26, we want our golden years to be full of wonderful sex, too. And yes, I talk more about my side of it, because I am comfortable sharing gory details of myself online. Not so much about about DH because he is a more private person (pain issues for him as well, though).
perspective, I hope I haven't offended you
post #8 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
The only thing worse then being cut up as a baby because you live in a society that says your natural body is wrong, is for having a new group of people tell you, “no, now you should be ashamed of this cut penis of yours.”

This whole mess started because parents and wives wanted their boys body to be a certain way. Being ashamed of your sons/husbands circumcised penis is just continuing the same kind of thing. (because the logic behind the circumcision culture is just as bad as the circumcisions themselves)
Kinda, but not really. I don't think a lot of what goes on here has to do with "shaming" anyone. A lot of what we hear around here is it's the mothers that have more of a natural instinct to protect their sons, but it's the cut fathers that are so brainwashed and adamant about slicing up their sons' genitals for no rational reason....other than precisely the fact that they ARE so confident (perhaps falsely so) about their bodies and for some crazy reason they seem to think having a cut penis is an integral part of that. The perspective of this board doesn't have so much with trying to make them feel ashamed of themselves is it is to have them want better for their sons. And some of them need to practically be hit upside the head with a tire iron to have that realization.

And no, it's not all a mental thing...a matter of choices, preferences, a flap of skin or not, blah, blah, blah. I was also circ'd for medical reasons (basically because they screwed up the first time). There was no reason for any of it, other than to wreck my penis for life. Sexually, my penis is useless thanks to what they did. It's a very real thing, not a mental problem. Like a previous poster said, I do regularly slather lotion on it just to keep it from getting dry and painful. I'm only 41 (I know that sounds old to you, but trust me, when you get there it's not, lol) and whatever sex life I had (very little) has diminished to practically nothing thanks to the effects of circ. I have no problems with my confidence in any setting; the problem is purely physical.

Please keep educating the young people where you're at; that's where the change will come. Many cut guys will always be defensive (probably a better word than ashamed) about it. If it gives them a wake up call to do better by their sons I'm all for it. If it doesn't and they still insist on handing their child over to a genital butcher, then they should be ashamed.
post #9 of 49
Thread Starter 
Its funny, before I came to this site, I never even knew that there were any women passionate with the anti-male circumcision movement. I saw the boys who were for or against it, I saw the men who founded groups like NORM, or the men that made different kinds of restoration devices. I also heard of the apathetic girlfriends, and the occasional guy who spoke of a girl calling his uncut penis “gross”. Or the rare story on my board of a boy who asked his mom why, and all he got back was “its cleaner”. But coming from where I was, I now see that there is no natural instinct for mothers to protect babies. Instead there is a natural instinct of BOTH parents to protect their babies, and how clear that instinct is in a parent is directly related to how weighed down they are by our culture.

Unlike women, from birth males our thrown into the culture of circumcision. Our VERY first experience we learn is that its ok to cut off a parts of boys body’s without their consent, our VERY FIRST. With life experiences like that, can you blame a father for not understanding his wife’s concern? Unless a male has gone through his own path of discovery and understanding, being “hit upside the head” as you put it, is not the best idea. Because at that point it forces a man to go one of two ways. 1. They admit they were victimized and feel that they are broken, with no way out but down. 2. They deny the whole thing, and really do develop mental issues where they become very very pro circumcision. Instead a different route needs to be taken, one where more confidence is built up, and not taken away.

If you view your penis as broken, it always will be. My name is perspective because I have realized that mens life experiences and the way their view their body has a lot more in determining how happy and healthy you feel about yourself, and how responsive your penis can be. (If you don’t believe me, I have a few books that might help you out.)

What I have been trying to say here is, infant circumcision is a horrible thing, it takes away the most basic rights. But taking this movement in the direction of pure victimization, only further hurts men that have been hurt enough. We need to be a culture that restores the gift happiness and self worth in everyones bodies, because if we can restore that, and also let it be known that a penis only belongs to its owner, then we can all go to sleep at night living in a world much better then the one of yesterday.
post #10 of 49
excellent post perspective, thank you!
post #11 of 49
Quote:
Anyway, while I agree, that insisting that a circumcised man must restore because he's "damaged goods" isn't morally right or healthy, I think you're missing a crucial component of why some women on this forum want their husbands to restore.

I'm not sure what you know about circumcision and it's potential (notice I said potential not guaranteed) effects on sexual intercourse, but many women want their husbands to restore so that sex isn't painful anymore! That's hardly a shallow reason.
That's exactly it. When it gets to the point where you can no longer engage in sex with your life partner, it's frustrating. I NEVER suggested he was broken, inperfect, anything. I presented the idea to him like this: "I know intercourse gets frustrating for you, why don't you read this and if you're interested we can take it from there". Not one word about his penis, just more "hey honey, if we do this, sex may be enjoyable!"

He personally does not feel broken, mutilated, whatever. He feels he had a complication fron an unnecessary surgery (pulled so tight he couldn't feel part of it even when pricked with a pin, shaft skin split open, and if he didn't use lubricant when masturbating he'd tear the skin underneath the head). Period. He knows it's not his fault, he knows that given the time he was born in (84) there was little information or choice. Even though he knows his parents still would have chosen to do it with the information, that's how he chooses to look at it.

Restoration isn't just about looks, it's not "I prefer the look of an intact penis so pleaaaase restore". It's something I knew would make both of us feel better and actually WANT intercourse again instead of all the other things we had been doing instead. And it doesn't even take full restoration to relieve pain, just some slack skin.

I absolutely agree a woman should never push her husband into ANYTHING at all (especially for aesthetic purposes), but when it comes down to tearing the inside of your vagina and being sore/bleeding for hours after sex, I don't think making a suggestion (that will also improve sex for him) is really all that out there. Especially if done gently and as that: a suggestion.
post #12 of 49
Thank you for sharing your perspective , you make some good points.

I will point out though that some women want their husbands to restore because there dh's circs are causing them sexual issues. When sex hurts so bad ect that you avoid it at all costs something needs to change. Restoration can help with many of the sexual issues caused by circumcision, not just on the man's end of things. I would not and have not pressured my dh to restore , it's his body and he would have to make that decision. But I would hope he'd take my opinion/needs into consideration, since it's OUR sex life not just his.
post #13 of 49
im curious; why would intercourse hurt due to a circumcized penis for the woman? i have experienced both natural and cut and honestly felt no pain with either. what would cause the pain?
post #14 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by arismama! View Post
im curious; why would intercourse hurt due to a circumcized penis for the woman? i have experienced both natural and cut and honestly felt no pain with either. what would cause the pain?
Here's a good thread that talks about it.



http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=709119
post #15 of 49

can I ask...

OP, what was your medical reason for circ? You know, most of the time kids get circ'd just because doctors are too ignorant on the issue and think that normal things (like for example, balooning or not retracting til puberty) are not normal. If this is the case with you, right now when you are 18 IS THE BEST age to sue the sh*** out of the doctor/hospital that performed your circ!
post #16 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by arismama! View Post
im curious; why would intercourse hurt due to a circumcized penis for the woman? i have experienced both natural and cut and honestly felt no pain with either. what would cause the pain?
Well, if you're like me, and produce a minimal amount of natural lubrication, because of the air that a circ'd penis forces in, you dry out very, very quickly, causing burning friction. I can't have sex two days in a row because I need to heal afterwards. We've had problems with store-bought lube, so our only option is to give me time to heal. In addition, if the circ is tight, the glans ridge is extremely prominent. It's like being porked with a fleshy barb, and drags against the vaginal wall with each outstroke. My husband is also very desensitized, so it takes a lot of effort for him to reach climax, which causes exhaustion and a lot of times, pulled muscles for me.

I would love for my husband to restore, but I won't be the one to ask him. If he ever wants to, he's got to ask HIMSELF if he thinks it's worth it, if he wants to go through with it. I love him as he is, we just have to think around our sexual problems a bit more than we would have if he was intact.
post #17 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by fhqwhgads View Post
We've had problems with store-bought lube, so our only option is to give me time to heal.
A little off-topic, but have you tried something natural, like olive oil?
post #18 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
Unless a male has gone through his own path of discovery and understanding, being “hit upside the head” as you put it, is not the best idea. Because at that point it forces a man to go one of two ways. 1. They admit they were victimized and feel that they are broken, with no way out but down. 2. They deny the whole thing, and really do develop mental issues where they become very very pro circumcision. Instead a different route needs to be taken, one where more confidence is built up, and not taken away.
Hm. I don't understand what you are saying here. There are two options: denial or circumfetish? It is perfectly fine to be depressed because some cut your body without permission-- it doesn't mean it is a bottomless pitt.

I believe that on this board, we are able to take more of a shocking stance because of the anonymity of the internet and because we are mostly women. And of course, everyone here can only post they are aginst RIC. Most of the posts are done out of desperation to save a child... and if "daddy" is in denial, he still shouldn't get the right to cut a baby. Most of us will say whatever we think will help someone NOT cut a baby, and brainstorm about it for days to find the right approach. If it hurts the dad, so be it, he is a grown-up, the conversation can be steered away from the dad's penis. I think that when it comes to the men who have been victimized (there IS no other word), we are actually much much more supportive and understanding than what you read here. Just because men are the victims, doesn't imply shame, or lack of worth. Check out some books about rape, and substitute the word rape with circ and woman with man.

Quote:
But coming from where I was, I now see that there is no natural instinct for mothers to protect babies. Instead there is a natural instinct of BOTH parents to protect their babies, and how clear that instinct is in a parent is directly related to how weighed down they are by our culture
Or how duped they are by their doctors. I spoke with a girl the other day whose doctor told her babies do not feel pain until they are 48 hours old, circumcision HAD to be done in this window, she would make the child suffer if she DID NOT circ. She was 16 when she gave birth and thought she was PROTECTING her son from a lifetime of disease and complication-- nothing about that is sexual, or for appearances, or "societal" pressure, or even a human rights issue. In my area, most people don't have internet. We have the word of our doctors, and the word of our circ'ed men.

I have discussed this with male friends, and none of them feel like victims- because, in this area, EVERYONE is circ'ed, no one knows that there is a difference. Most of the guys I've spoken with say, "You mean I would have been bigger if they left it alone?" The idea of not being circumcised had never crossed their minds. And they are happy to tell other fathers to leave it up to the child. Before I came to this site, I had never discussed this with anyone, really, because you don't talk about getting your teeth cleaned or a mole removed, it is just standard medical preventative care. You sign the form, they bring your baby back wrapped up. The end. And that is still the mentality because most people won't discuss it.

Thank you again for sharing your feelings, and please, don't generalize so much. You are very lucky to be working through your circ as an adult, someone who can process the information from both sides. It is a horribly horrible complex issue with misinformation jumbling with emotional pain. The stages of grief are: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Of course, not everyone goes through them all, but it is healthy to go through them. It still doesn't excuse the practice of MGM.
post #19 of 49
I posted a long response yesterday and my computer crashed before I was able to submit my comments.
Anyway, my main point was...I am so overjoyed just to know that young people are discussing circumcision!!! Nobody talked about this when I was a teen. Think of how many high-school and college students who would have never even thought of the circ issue are know learning how it's unnecessary and can cause pain and trauma! Think of how many future babies will be saved because of this! It's great to know the majority of your board is anti-circ. Those who are pro-circ now may change their mind when they have their own son. Good for you and others who are planting those seeds of knowledge!

Nice perspective, Perspective! I hope you continue to teach others about the harm of circ and the violation of baby boys!
post #20 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yulia_R View Post
OP, what was your medical reason for circ? You know, most of the time kids get circ'd just because doctors are too ignorant on the issue and think that normal things (like for example, balooning or not retracting til puberty) are not normal. If this is the case with you, right now when you are 18 IS THE BEST age to sue the sh*** out of the doctor/hospital that performed your circ!
She's got a point. The only three medical things that absolutely necessitate circumcision are cancer, gangrene and frostbite. Everything else can be treated in a more conservative manner...though sadly, here in the US physicians often deem foreskins as superfluous and are eager to get the $$$ from a quick surgery.

I've actually men a man who was circ'd as a teen because his parents switched HMOs and their new primary doctor told his parents to circ him to "prevent future problems." There was absolutely nothing wrong with him, and he'd never had any issues.
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Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Understanding Circumcision › Dealing with the circumcised males in your life: ramblings from an 18 year old son.