Dealing with the circumcised males in your life: ramblings from an 18 year old son. - Page 2

[phatchristy]

Someone has said that this is a very emotional issue, and YES it is. Because it involves the most intimate parts of our bodies. As well as cultural assumptions that we have here in the US that many have a personal interest in defending.

My husband, who was circumcised as a baby, looks at it this way. You play the cards you are dealt in life. Would he have chosen to be circumcised? NO! He would have preferred to have all the parts of his penis to enjoy. However, since he cannot he'll go and try to make the best of what he has.

After all, we are not defined as people by our genital status. The penis does not define the man. However, all of this *should* be a non-issue (as it is in other parts of the world, boys have every right to complete genitals as girls do). People should NOT have the right to circumcise their children for their own personal cosmetic reasons.

In his case, his circumcision was very tight and they removed all the frenulum as well. He has made efforts towards expanding the skin. He had no mobile skin during an erection. He used to think it was normal to get sores/skin splits from masturbation and for erections to be so tight the skin would split. He thought that pain/discomfort was just a part of masturbation/sex. He was circumcised in the typical tight midwestern style when he was born. So, he has problems caused by a very agressive circumciser.

Though, interestingly enough, he thought those things were normal. He thought the tightness, hair on the shaft, needing rough stimulation to O...he thought that was normal because that was all he'd ever known.

I encouraged him to restore mainly because I knew that it would cure those issues. As we had found as well, sadly these often become more pronounced as a man ages. When he had gained enough skin for the negative sensations to disappear...those were bittersweet moments.

When you are in a relationship with someone for decades, you love them enough to be honest with them...even if it is going to hurt a little...because you know that honesty often gives that person the ability to make positive life changes. Because if there IS something that you can do to make his life better, it seems ridiculous not to do it! Knowledge is power!

So, I wouldn't make generalizations about men who restore and the women who love them. The restoration ultimately is for the man. There may be long term benefits for the sexual act and the woman as well, but it ultimately is going to make the greatest difference for the man.

Welcome to the boards, it's good to hear that teenagers are discussing these issues. I hope that means that our future generations of men will have control of the fate of their own bodies!

[thixle]

yes to everything phatchristy so eloquently wrote!

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by perspective

I have been reading this forum for a few weeks now, and I wanted to give my perspective of this issue.
Before I start, I wanted to give an idea where I am coming from.
I am an 18 year old male. Was circumcised for medical reasons, and sadly have a few bad scars from it. I am strongly against infant circumcision. I personally believe it should be illegal. I am from a teen puberty site, where there is much discussion on this issue. People who support circ and people who don’t. Boys that are cut, and boys that are not. (cut is the slang term my board uses when talking about circumcision) Boys who wanted to get circumcised, and have (and who are happy with the results), we even have 5 guys who are actively restoring! Mostly the board is anti-circ. Yet on our board people look at human rights, and functional issues (i.e. easier to masturbate) as the main reasons they are against circumcision. And like here, we have members from the US and the UK.


After reading many posts here I was surprised by the actions of some of the board members. There were a few mothers who were afraid that people would see their circumcised boy naked, and went out of their way to try and prevent that. Even worse then that, there are women in here that actually are trying to convince their husbands to restore!
From a circumcised guys perspective, one who does not know the difference of having a foreskin, one of the worst things about circumcision is that society thinks an uncircumcised man is broken and dirty. It makes me sick to realize that there are girls my age who think that a penis has to be circumcised. Or that society in general has such little respect for the natural male body. Through our lives men are either told it was good they were mutilated or that since they weren’t, there is something wrong with them.

The only thing worse then being cut up as a baby because you live in a society that says your natural body is wrong, is for having a new group of people tell you, “no, now you should be ashamed of this cut penis of yours.”

This whole mess started because parents and wives wanted their boys body to be a certain way. Being ashamed of your sons/husbands circumcised penis is just continuing the same kind of thing. (because the logic behind the circumcision culture is just as bad as the circumcisions themselves)

Celebrate, and be proud of the bodies of the males in your life, no matter if its been altered or not.

You know the REAL reason why circumcisions continue in the US? Its because men don’t feel confident about their bodies. If you raise a son (or treat a husband) to be proud of the body they have, then they will spread that same logic to the other men in their family. (Personally I believe, that the “vulnerability of men” article is a waay to simplified look on men who have grown up in a circumcision culture, and in the end could cause more misunderstanding between husband and wife) This not just about our physical conditions, but how we view ourselves and how we apply that to the people around us.

I don’t mean to offend anyone here, simply to let you know that this issue is a lot more complex then it may seem, and its important to take a double take on how our passions could sometimes cause negative effects.

Either way, thanks for listening Moms!!

(bold is from me)

Perspective, Thank you for sharing your valuable insight on this very important issue. I was one of those moms who went out of my way to protect my circumcised ds from being naked in public, because I didn't want people to get the wrong impression that I was pro-circ.

Your post doesn't offend me, but I'm ashamed of my self after reading it. I feel really bad for allowing the circumciser to mark him with MY IGNORANCE!
My other intact ds's would bring some healing from something I feel so much remorse over. Thats simply isn't the case. Don't misunderstand, I thank G-D every day for sparing my other ds's from this atrocity.


I've noticed, my reaction to what happened to him (after learning the truth) has effected my circ'd ds. This is what I'm most ashamed of, especially after reading your POV. He has been through so much already. Mommy being upset might make him feel less of himself - because I'm so ANGRY for what happened to him. I want him to grow up happy not ever having this on his mind, so when I started realizing the conversations I had with DP or relatives, he tunes in and his entire demeanor changes. Now, for about a yr now (ds is 7), if the subject is ever brought up and he is around I try to be subtle and dance around it. I try avoiding the conversation in front of him altogether but thats hard when I'm not the initiator. I'm so afraid this will effect his self esteem. He already has issues. He is afraid to sleep at night because he has nightmares. He has had nightmares nearly every night since he was born. He use to remember his birth. I'm not joking. He told us when he was 3 that when he was born he almost fell because it was so bright and the doctor tried to catch him. When he turned 4 the TV fell on him so he has little memory of his infancy now. We threw that TV in the trash!

I just don't know what to do. He is such a sweet kid, he can be extremely aggressive sometimes but for the most part everyone loves him, even strangers. (He is very outgoing).

The day will come when I want to discuss this with him, prepare him for the day (if he wishes) to sue his circumciser. His only chance to do this is when he is 18. I hate myself so much for allowing this to happen that if I had a million bucks, I'd actually let him sue me, not joking! Ultimately, the fault lays in the hands of the circumciser who ACTUALLY DID THE CRIME KNOWING IT WASN'T MEDICALLY NECESSARY AND WITHHELD THAT INFORMATION FROM US ON PURPOSE!!!!!!!! I premeditate BAD things upon that circumciser. She HURT MY BABY FOR HER OWN PERSONAL GAIN AND I'LL NEVER FORGIVE HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Until and IF she ever tells my ds and my dh and I she is sorry and she STOPS CIRCUMCISING BABY BOYS!!!!!!!

How will I ever prepare him with out possibly letting him feel bad about himself? The last thing I want him to do is become so engrossed with BITTER RAGE (like me) that it distracts him from having a normal happy life.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by fruitful womb

How will I ever prepare him with out possibly letting him feel bad about himself? The last thing I want him to do is become so engrossed with BITTER RAGE (like me) that it distracts him from having a normal happy life.

I want to help you here. I have talked to a lot of young guys on this issue. Some that wished they were never circumcised, some that dont care, and some that always wished to be cut, and asked their parents, and were cut and are very happy with it.

And from what I understand you saying, what you really want at this point is your son to be happy, feel fulfilled and not bitter like you often do. From my experience of talking to a lot of other guys, the happiness of your son is not going to be based on his circumcision status. (heck your uncut son could end up resenting your cut son, and wish he was the same. I've heard stories of that happening on my boards)

I could go through many stories to explain this (and if you want me to, I can) but trust me from my experience, your son will be happy as long as he feels confident with his body and that he has full control over it. I know that second one is hard, considering his foreskin was removed, but its not impossible. Let me give you an example,

There is one boy on my "home board", he is 13. He was circumcised at birth, and grew up with his family in Arizona. His family were nudists from time to time. His penis was looked at as nothing short of normal. He grew up being very self confident of himself (and a cool person in general). He decided that he wanted to restore, not because he felt that something was missing, but because he liked his penis, and wanted to modify to a way he would enjoy more. I think the mindset of this kid, is a great place to start for you.

Maybe take your sons on a family trips to nudist beaches from time to time. There they can be exposed to all body types, and see that there is nothing to be ashamed of, and that there is no one right way to be.

In the end you want to raise your sons being completely happy with the body they have. You know why there are guys that are happy with getting circumcised themselves? Because they did it themselves, they had control. Instead of viewing restoration as a way of fixing what was lost, in your house hold, you should present it as a way they can modify their penis, a way they can control their body. This is a great way to give that feeling of control back to your circed son.

For starters, you have to swallow all the resentment you feel. Because your projecting that on your son, and that will only make him feel worse. If your husband is restoring, make it well known to your kids, but make it clear its not because Dad feels there is anything wrong with himself, its just he wants his penis to be different, and its a personal choice. If thats clear, your son will never feel trapped in a choice you made for him. In the end he should feel completely happy with the penis he has, but also know that its perfectly fine to change it if he wants to.

Ok, I am starting to babble. I would love to help you with this anyway I can, and can if you give me more specific questions, and I may have a few links that could be helpful. Just PM me, or i'll post here. But just remember, his foreskin may be gone, but his pride, confidence and happiness can never be cut away.

[PJJ]

Pain

Originally Posted by arismama!

im curious; why would intercourse hurt due to a circumcized penis for the woman? i have experienced both natural and cut and honestly felt no pain with either. what would cause the pain?

As one gets older, it is particularly pronounced, in my opinion.

Thanks.

[Bm31]

Originally Posted by perspective

If you view your penis as broken, it always will be. My name is perspective because I have realized that mens life experiences and the way their view their body has a lot more in determining how happy and healthy you feel about yourself, and how responsive your penis can be. (If you don’t believe me, I have a few books that might help you out.)

Thanks for the book offer, but please read my post more thoroughly before trying to imply I have a mental/psychological issue. It's truly a physical matter.

If you can find that 3rd path to take you will solve a conundrum that often plagues mothers on this board....how to not destroy the ego/confidence/body image of their cut dh's while educating them that a cut penis is NOT an essential part of their happiness so that they DON'T do it to their own sons. That's the bottom line.

[KBecks]

Thank you for sharing your insights. It's interesting to see what young males think.

I am considering how to handle an apology or a letter to my sons regarding their circumcisions. I am sorry and I realize it was a terrible mistake. I want to help protect the grandchildren, if we have any.

[AXEius]

"If your husband is restoring, make it well known to your kids, but make it clear its not because Dad feels there is anything wrong with himself, its just he wants his penis to be different, and its a personal choice. If thats clear, your son will never feel trapped in a choice you made for him."

You have a very interesting perspective, but to say this is simply denial and i would not LIE to my children that way. Restoring IS fixing somthing that is wrong with somebody, and it was wrong to take that body part away from them. Restoring DOES fix problems with penises and sex, it's not about having the look of a foreskin (its not like painting your house from blue to white there are real functional benefits). Telling someone, especially your own children that circumcision is not damaging and that there is nothing wrong with a circumcised penis is a LIE, the last thing im gonna do is lie to my own family.You can't teach people the truth by lying to them or putting yourself in denial. I understand you are against circumcision, is this correct? Are you aware of the functions of the foreskin and the negative effects of removing it(are you also aware of the benefits of restoring)?

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by AXEius

You have a very interesting perspective, but to say this is simply denial and i would not LIE to my children that way. Restoring IS fixing somthing that is wrong with somebody, and it was wrong to take that body part away from them. Restoring DOES fix problems with penises and sex, it's not about having the look of a foreskin (its not like painting your house from blue to white there are real functional benefits). Telling someone, especially your own children that circumcision is not damaging and that there is nothing wrong with a circumcised penis is a LIE, the last thing im gonna do is lie to my own family.You can't teach people the truth by lying to them or putting yourself in denial. I understand you are against circumcision, is this correct? Are you aware of the functions of the foreskin and the negative effects of removing it(are you also aware of the benefits of restoring)?

I agree.

[Yulia_R]

Originally Posted by AXEius

"If your husband is restoring, make it well known to your kids, but make it clear its not because Dad feels there is anything wrong with himself, its just he wants his penis to be different, and its a personal choice. If thats clear, your son will never feel trapped in a choice you made for him."

You have a very interesting perspective, but to say this is simply denial and i would not LIE to my children that way. Restoring IS fixing somthing that is wrong with somebody, and it was wrong to take that body part away from them. Restoring DOES fix problems with penises and sex, it's not about having the look of a foreskin (its not like painting your house from blue to white there are real functional benefits). Telling someone, especially your own children that circumcision is not damaging and that there is nothing wrong with a circumcised penis is a LIE, the last thing im gonna do is lie to my own family.You can't teach people the truth by lying to them or putting yourself in denial. I understand you are against circumcision, is this correct? Are you aware of the functions of the foreskin and the negative effects of removing it(are you also aware of the benefits of restoring)?

I agree 100%!

[SammyJr]

Originally Posted by perspective

You know the REAL reason why circumcisions continue in the US? Its because men don’t feel confident about their bodies. If you raise a son (or treat a husband) to be proud of the body they have, then they will spread that same logic to the other men in their family. (Personally I believe, that the “vulnerability of men” article is a waay to simplified look on men who have grown up in a circumcision culture, and in the end could cause more misunderstanding between husband and wife) This not just about our physical conditions, but how we view ourselves and how we apply that to the people around us.

I disagree with this point. I think that the reason that fathers feel compelled to circumcise is that they are proud of their bodies and not circumcising their sons would be a blow to their egos. As someone above put it, they've made circumcision central to their happiness. I've been debating and discussing this issue for a long time and some of the responses I get are:

"My penis works FINE."
"My sex life is great."
"I'm glad I was cut."

These responses are all defense mechanisms against the very idea that circumcision might not be the best thing in the world. Their egos prevent the men from seeing facts, logic, and ethics and channelling their emotions properly into anger against the doctors who did this to them and, in some cases, the parents who forced it on them.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by SammyJr

These responses are all defense mechanisms against the very idea that circumcision might not be the best thing in the world. Their egos prevent the men from seeing facts, logic, and ethics and channelling their emotions properly into anger against the doctors who did this to them and, in some cases, the parents who forced it on them.

This is where I disagree with you to an extent. Of course there are men out there who say that, but your generalizing. For the past few years I have been having intense circ discussions with guys about this, some of them who were uncircumcised and in their early teens ASKED their parents if they could get circed. It was hard for me to accept that these people even existed. My logic was "wait, I dont want to be circumcised, there is no way they would actually want that"
But over years of discussion, I have come to realize that there are men, and boys out there that honestly, and truly love their circumcised penis. Generally these guys picked to be circumcised themselves. The two I have spoken to the most, have told me that they will let their son decide what he wants for himself. Circumcision is what they wanted. They see the power and joy in having control over their own bodies, and want to pass that gift to their sons.

You have this set up that what all men want is to be natural, and everything else is a defense mechanism. I agree that most men would probably prefer to be natural, but there is one need greater then even that. Society tells guys that we need to be in control, and strong. So if a guy can feel more in control by restoring, he will, or if he will feel more in control in getting circumcised, he will. Although for most men being in control and confident simply means realizing that they love their penis and no one is going to tell them differently. And that is what makes them happy.

And of course these men are going to get defensive when you want to take away that control, because socially, this is our pillar (just like beauty is womens). As long as you present this issue as RIGHT and WRONG, then your partner is going to be less then responsive, because you actually are attacking him. If new mothers want to win the circumcision discussion (and if they want there husbands to actually agree with them) dont frame it as whats "natural", instead say you want to let your son have control over his own penis, let him decide what he wants.

[SammyJr]

Originally Posted by perspective

This is where I disagree with you to an extent. Of course there are men out there who say that, but your generalizing. For the past few years I have been having intense circ discussions with guys about this, some of them who were uncircumcised and in their early teens ASKED their parents if they could get circed. It was hard for me to accept that these people even existed. My logic was "wait, I dont want to be circumcised, there is no way they would actually want that"

I should have clarified. Most of the men that I have discussed with were circumcised as newborns. I can accept that some people want to be circumcised, but I can't accept rationalization from men who were cut as newborns and didn't make a choice in the matter.

But over years of discussion, I have come to realize that there are men, and boys out there that honestly, and truly love their circumcised penis. Generally these guys picked to be circumcised themselves. The two I have spoken to the most, have told me that they will let their son decide what he wants for himself. Circumcision is what they wanted. They see the power and joy in having control over their own bodies, and want to pass that gift to their sons.

I have no issue with men who choose to be circumcised as long as they don't feel compelled to circumcise their babies. Unfortunately, many circumfetishist types also promote circumcision of newborns.

You have this set up that what all men want is to be natural, and everything else is a defense mechanism. I agree that men would probably prefer to be natural, but there is one need greater then even that.

I think that most guys would prefer to be natural, if they grew up intact and were presented with the choice as adults.

Society tells guys that we need to be in control, and strong. So if a guy can feel more in control by restoring, he will, or if he will feel more in control in getting circumcised, he will. Although for most men being in control and confident simply means realizing that they love their penis and no one is going to tell them differently. And that is what makes them happy.

Fair enough, but often that issue becomes a projection of control over the sexuality of a baby. The problem lies in convincing these men that it isn't about them.

And of course these men are going to get defensive when you want to take away that control, because socially, this is our pillar (just like beauty is womens).

The problem is theirs, not mine. These men need to become secure in themselves and learn to seperate their penis from the ones that belong to their babies. Often, pointing out the negatives about circumcision feels like an attack on circumcised men, but in reality, it is about protecting the next generation from the effects of ego, tradition, and greed.

[SammyJr]

Originally Posted by perspective

As long as you present this issue as RIGHT and WRONG, then your partner is going to be less then responsive, because you actually are attacking him. If new mothers want to win the circumcision discussion (and if they want there husbands to actually agree with them) dont frame it as whats "natural", instead say you want to let your son have control over his own penis, let him decide what he wants.

I usually frame it as "his body, his choice", but autonomy of children is a hard concept for many parents to grasp.

[perspective]

[QUOTE=SammyJr;10071125]

My problem with the way you framed it before, was you sounded like you were saying most men. Or that the ones that do get defensive are simply doing because they are trying to hide the fact that they feel like a victim. Which I was diagresing, by saying basically, things are not that simple.

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by perspective

For the past few years I have been having intense circ discussions with guys about this, some of them who were uncircumcised and in their early teens ASKED their parents if they could get circed. It was hard for me to accept that these people even existed. My logic was "wait, I dont want to be circumcised, there is no way they would actually want that"
But over years of discussion, I have come to realize that there are men, and boys out there that honestly, and truly love their circumcised penis.

The main reason imo anyone would choose to cut off a healthy part of their genitalia and be thrilled about it is because of social conditioning which for some is a very overpowering force (same reason why parents circumcise their sons or daughters for that matter). I truly have a hard time understanding wanting to get circumcised. I mean for me personally I could not fathom being circumcised myself and I thank the universe that females are not routinely circumcised in the US. I think being thrilled with missing an important functional part of one's genitalia just goes to show how much people want to fit in and be seen as 'normal' even at their own expense.

[thixle]

Originally Posted by perspective

My problem with the way you framed it before, was you sounded like you were saying most men. Or that the ones that do get defensive are simply doing because they are trying to hide the fact that they feel like a victim. Which I was diagresing, by saying basically, things are not that simple.

But, with a lot of men, things ARE that simple. Perspecive- you are in a unique position to discuss this issue with other males, online, in relative privacy, with a wide variety of walks of life... I will generalize and say that most men, in the US, don't want to think about it. Most men, cut as newborns, think, hey my penis works fine, my sex life is fine, I like that I was cut because I wasn't teased as a child. The end. There is nothing to discuss... and most men don't conciously think about it... until they have a baby. Most men in my area are cut, the uncut are the outcasts.

These responses are all defense mechanisms against the very idea that circumcision might not be the best thing in the world. Their egos prevent the men from seeing facts, logic, and ethics and channelling their emotions properly into anger against the doctors who did this to them and, in some cases, the parents who forced it on them.

That is societal conditioning and is very hard to break through. Many people strongly believe "my child, my choice," others are still being told that circumcision is medically best. Either way, men want to, and often do, feel very confident with their bodies... It still doesn't give anyone the right to cut a baby, or justify cutting a baby because they were cut and are "fine" with it.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by Sheacoby

The main reason imo anyone would choose to cut off a healthy part of their genitalia and be thrilled about it is because of social conditioning which for some is a very overpowering force (same reason why parents circumcise their sons or daughters for that matter). I truly have a hard time understanding wanting to get circumcised. I mean for me personally I could not fathom being circumcised myself and I thank the universe that females are not routinely circumcised in the US. I think being thrilled with missing an important functional part of one's genitalia just goes to show how much people want to fit in and be seen as 'normal' even at their own expense.

The culture of circumcision is not something thats easy to understand, and if you dont have a penis, its even harder. Culturally in America men grow up, cut or uncut with a sense that the penis is this alterable thing. (I guess in similar way that no one finds it weird to jab a hole through your ear, so you can hang pieces of metal from it). To better explain it, I will go a different angle. Body manipulation is about empowerment, control, pride, and identification. That goes for tattoos piercings, cosmetic surgery, circumcision, and the boat load of other stuff that pre industrial cultures still practice. And yes these cultures influence these people, (even the boys who choice to be cut themselves) but in the end they were happy with the choice THEY made. And thats that is the difference. There is NOTHING wrong with body modification, only when these practices are forced on non-consenting adults or children, do problems develop.

The fact that you cant understand why anyone would be happy with cutting off a part of them is fine. Heck, even I dont fully understand why someone would want to do that. But I still know that they want that, and in the end they will be happy with that choice, and with all of this, happy is the best possible outcome.

[l_olive]

I'm having a really hard time getting to the heart of your issues, perspective.

What I'm hearing is that you want to make sure that the women here understand that there are a lot of men out there who have chosen to be cut and are completely happy with their cut status -- and more importantly, we need to make really, really sure that we do everything in our power to make sure that the men and boys in our lives are confident about their penises -- regardless of being cut/uncut?

Am I mis-reading this? Is there more?

I'm just confused.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by l_olive

I'm having a really hard time getting to the heart of your issues, perspective.

What I'm hearing is that you want to make sure that the women here understand that there are a lot of men out there who have chosen to be cut and are completely happy with their cut status -- and more importantly, we need to make really, really sure that we do everything in our power to make sure that the men and boys in our lives are confident about their penises -- regardless of being cut/uncut?

Am I mis-reading this? Is there more?

I'm just confused.

What I am saying, is from my experience control, confidence, and happiness are the real issues of circumcision. Being natural, having these extra benefits is nice, but its not the heart of the issue. But for a lot of women on this forum, they focus on that in the way they fight for this movement. Yet a man can truly be happy and be cut, but also a boy can feel just as victimized, and feel like he is on the outside and be uncut.

Male Infant circumcision should stop today. No one should be allowed to take away the most basic right any human can have, control over their own body. But resolving this issue is going to involve a lot more then just saying, "its natural, your wrong, and your taking away something that provides a slew of benefits." Doing this avoids the real negative effects circumcision has caused socially. And this horrible "tradition" is not going to change by just making men feel bad about themselves in a different way then before, or by going out to parents on a one by one basis. This is only going to be resolved through cultural shifts, where we as a society no longer look at the penis as something that needs to be changed (be that to add a new foreskin, or take the original away).