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Dealing with the circumcised males in your life: ramblings from an 18 year old son. - Page 3

post #41 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
What I am saying, is from my experience control, confidence, and happiness are the real issues of circumcision. Being natural, having these extra benefits is nice, but its not the heart of the issue. But for a lot of women on this forum, they focus on that in the way they fight for this movement. Yet a man can truly be happy and be cut, but also a boy can feel just as victimized, and feel like he is on the outside and be uncut.

Male Infant circumcision should stop today. No one should be allowed to take away the most basic right any human can have, control over their own body. But resolving this issue is going to involve a lot more then just saying, "its natural, your wrong, and your taking away something that provides a slew of benefits." Doing this avoids the real negative effects circumcision has caused socially. And this horrible "tradition" is not going to change by just making men feel bad about themselves in a different way then before, or by going out to parents on a one by one basis. This is only going to be resolved through cultural shifts, where we as a society no longer look at the penis as something that needs to be changed (be that to add a new foreskin, or take the original away).
And how exactly would you like to see us change our focus? Keep in mind that the question we are usually asked in this forum is "how can I change the mind of my baby's father? He's insisting that my baby be cut because he is, and his penis is just fine, thank you!" If we don't say, "it's natural, it's wrong, and it's taking away something that provides a slew of benefits" what EXACTLY would you like to see us say instead? Oh don't worry, he may be happy with it, so make sure you don't make him feel bad as a teenager?

I don't want to make any man feel less confident or more victimized, but our goal is not to protect these grown men, it is to protect helpless babies. So again, please be more specific in how this cultural shift -- so that no more babies are cut -- can take place.

And just one more thought on our "perspectives"...

There are many of us in this forum who experience or have experienced painful sex because of our partner's circumcision. I would respectfully submit that you, as an 18 year old young man, have not experienced all of the same things as a peri-menopausal partner of a middle-aged man has. Things get more, ummm.... difficult as one ages. Being "happy" with a cut penis at 20 doesn't always equal being happy (or having a happy partner) at 50.

I think your heart is in the right place, I just don't think you're getting quite what we're doing here. And I do think we're making a difference. If I didn't, I couldn't keep coming here and reading such heart-breaking stories.
post #42 of 49
Quote:
What I am saying, is from my experience control, confidence, and happiness are the real issues of circumcision. Being natural, having these extra benefits is nice, but its not the heart of the issue. But for a lot of women on this forum, they focus on that in the way they fight for this movement.
I believe you are ignoring everyone that has said it causes actual PHYSICAL pain and actual PHYSICAL problems.

Quote:
Male Infant circumcision should stop today. No one should be allowed to take away the most basic right any human can have, control over their own body. But resolving this issue is going to involve a lot more then just saying, "its natural, your wrong, and your taking away something that provides a slew of benefits." Doing this avoids the real negative effects circumcision has caused socially.
You are a very intellegent, enlightened person. Many people do not think it is a human rights issue. Many people believe they are doing GOOD by taking away this body part. This forum is for informational purposes-- since many people don't know anything about the foreskin, knowledge of those benifits is a good thing! This is one of the few places people can come for real information. It is the beginning of the understanding of the negative social and physical effects. And in no way do i see this board as focusing on the sexual benifits as the sole reason to leave a child intact.

Quote:
And this horrible "tradition" is not going to change by just making men feel bad about themselves in a different way then before, or by going out to parents on a one by one basis. This is only going to be resolved through cultural shifts, where we as a society no longer look at the penis as something that needs to be changed (be that to add a new foreskin, or take the original away).
Do you honestly think the posters on this forum actively try to make men feel bad that they were cut as babies? I think most of us go out of our way to shelter and understand the feelings of the men we are speaking with. But that does not give them a right to use it as an excuse to cut children. How else do you expect to see a social change without education, discussion, and understanding on a one-on-one basis? How do you expect people to view the penis in a different way if the majority has no knowledge of the anatomy in it's origional state?

I hope you don't see this as attacking. I believe you are viewing this as a cosmetic option, in a society that is cosmetically obsessed. Though that is a major component of the circumcision debate, it is by no means ALL of it, just as the sexual component or the human rights issues do not stand alone.

Your thoughts are very welcome here. You are against RIC, how do you advocate your decision?
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
having these extra benefits is nice, but its not the heart of the issue.
They are not extra benifits though.

Quote:
This is only going to be resolved through cultural shifts, where we as a society no longer look at the penis as something that needs to be changed
That's exactly what many of us are doing already. We are creating (or trying to) that cultural shift.


I don't need to have a penis to understand this issue btw. If culturally a circumcised penis wasn't seen as 'normal' there woud not be many men signing up for it (you can look at intact countries for clarity on that). Yes, there would be a select few that were into body modification that might want to be circumcised for that reason but they would be a real exception.
If it wasn't for our culture cutting of the foreskin would be seen as an oddity just like cutting of a finger or an ear ect.
post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJr View Post
The problem is theirs, not mine. These men need to become secure in themselves and learn to seperate their penis from the ones that belong to their babies. Often, pointing out the negatives about circumcision feels like an attack on circumcised men, but in reality, it is about protecting the next generation from the effects of ego, tradition, and greed.
: I totally agree. From all that I've seen dancing around the fragile egos of cut men has only produced more cut babies.
post #45 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
The only thing worse then being cut up as a baby because you live in a society that says your natural body is wrong, is for having a new group of people tell you, “no, now you should be ashamed of this cut penis of yours.”

This whole mess started because parents and wives wanted their boys body to be a certain way. Being ashamed of your sons/husbands circumcised penis is just continuing the same kind of thing. (because the logic behind the circumcision culture is just as bad as the circumcisions themselves)

Celebrate, and be proud of the bodies of the males in your life, no matter if its been altered or not.
A lot of the women on here agree with you. I havent seen one woman yet on here who has been like "DH's circ'd penis grosses me out, how can I get him to change?". I see most of them saying "Sex for us is painful because my DH is circ'd, how can I bring up restoring with him without making him feel inadequate?" I don't see anybody being ashamed of their husbands penises (that sounds really weird) at all.

I wanted to bring up restoring to my husband because sex for us is extremely painful for me (and him!), so much that when we werent TTC (which was excruciating) we were having sex AT THE MOST once a month.. usually closer to once every 3 months. There comes a point when you have to decide "Is it worth it to bring this up if it will make my husband feel it's his fault?" and at this point, yes, it was. Fortunately I never had to bring it up at all, he had already started manual tugging and eventually asked me to help his research

He isn't ashamed of his penis. He doesn't feel like there is something WRONG with him. He's upset that his parents did this to him in the first place, but most of all he's excited that this might really help our sex life.

This is not a men-only issue. This absolutely affects women. If you haven't seen it, ************************** lays it all out (rather graphically, btw).


As for everybody else, if you're here to say "RIC needs to stop", we are all right there with you dude. Very few people on this board care if men decide to get circumcised later. Being that this is a parenting board, its mostly geared toward the anti-RIC movement, and the only time when we care if someone is happy with their circ is if they are pressing it on infants. In that case yes, these folks need a reality check as this is a non consenting child's body and their parents' attitudes (regardless of if they are happy with their genitals or not) don't matter. If it means making a man rethink his "happily circumcised" status to safe his son's right to being whole and natural, so be it. Sometimes these things need to be thought over.

There's no reason why a man can't be happy with his circ'd status and also allow his son to make that decision for himself. Just like if my mom got a boob job, there's no reason why she can't be totally happy with her boob job but you know.. not make me have one as an infant to spare me the decision of having it done later. KWIM?
post #46 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenOfThePride View Post
A little off-topic, but have you tried something natural, like olive oil?
I am allergic to all of the commercial lubes out there. We have been using Coconut oil for about a year after having it recommended here on MDC and I it! We will never use anything else.
post #47 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Organicavocado View Post
This is not a men-only issue. This absolutely affects women. If you haven't seen it, ************************** lays it all out (rather graphically, btw).

As for everybody else, if you're here to say "RIC needs to stop", we are all right there with you dude. Very few people on this board care if men decide to get circumcised later. Being that this is a parenting board, its mostly geared toward the anti-RIC movement, and the only time when we care if someone is happy with their circ is if they are pressing it on infants. In that case yes, these folks need a reality check as this is a non consenting child's body and their parents' attitudes (regardless of if they are happy with their genitals or not) don't matter. If it means making a man rethink his "happily circumcised" status to safe his son's right to being whole and natural, so be it. Sometimes these things need to be thought over.

There's no reason why a man can't be happy with his circ'd status and also allow his son to make that decision for himself. Just like if my mom got a boob job, there's no reason why she can't be totally happy with her boob job but you know.. not make me have one as an infant to spare me the decision of having it done later. KWIM?
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post #48 of 49

What I think...

is that because of perspective's young age and way with words he has put many here on the defensive and accomplished his goal of having mamas yet again argue how RIC is wrong and how it impacts us all.
IMHO, perspective has his own issues about his own circ and wants it all to be accepted.
Bravo perspective---you have brilliantly remained under the radar.
Happy Holidays!!!!!!!!!!!!
post #49 of 49
I'm going to preface this with a short tid-bit about myself: I am 23, male, and circumcised. Also, I wish I weren't circumcised. So I'm in a pretty similar boat as you, perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
What I am saying, is from my experience control, confidence, and happiness are the real issues of circumcision.
For me they are control and the loss of the sexual functions afforded by a foreskin.

I'm a confident individual. I'm even happy, believe it or not. I have every expectation that I will continue leading a fulfilling and happy life (excepting for the normal ups and downs we all have, of course). These are not issues for me.

Quote:
Being natural, having these extra benefits is nice,
As already pointed out, they are not "extra" benefits.

Quote:
but its not the heart of the issue.
I beg to differ. The reason I want to regain control over my body is specifically *because of* those lost sexual functions. If there was nothing lost in circumcision, then what, exactly, have I lost control over?

Sure, in a philosophical sense it could be argued that the surgery itself--even if it removed no flesh, and had no negative effects--is still a violation of my body. But without those practical impacts I doubt I would have any of the feelings of personal violation that I do.

So with the exception of the pain experienced by circumcised infants, I think that the practical physical effects of circumcision are in fact the core issue from which everything else stems.

It's all well and good to say that control, confidence, happiness, and human rights are the real issues at stake. But without any practical effects of circumcision, it would have no bearing on these issues anyway. So I think it is quite ludicrous to dismiss the physical effects of circumcision as somehow secondary. In fact, they are the very root of the issue.

That is not to say that the loss of a sense of control over my penis is not an issue in-and-of itself. BUT, the loss of sexual function is just as impactful an issue for me (if not more so). PLUS it is the root of my sense of loss of control. So to me, that makes it the primary issue at stake.

I don't think it's possible to separate the psychological effects of circumcision from the physical effects in an intellectually honest way.
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