better immunity w/ disease?

[happy1nluv]

Ok, a while ago I read an article that was SOOO anti-vax it made me not trust it (and I'M anti-vax)... but one thought in the article has stuck with me, and i'd like to know if you think it makes sense. (ive long since lost the article, but here's the gist)...

With all of the non-life threatening vaccines out there -- chicken pox, flu, etc. we are eliminating previously common sicknesses that you'd get, be uncomfortable through and then get well with a strengthened immune system. Now that we're using vaccines to eliminate these illnesses (as a society), our immune systems don't get the practice, and when a serious germ does circulate, it hits us harder than it should since we missed out on the relatively harmless "practice" sicknesses...

(I know very little about flu in general, but... applying the above...)
If I got the flu vax religiously, and then never got the flu (yeah, i know...but go with me here) ... and then the avian flu appeared -- since i didn't have practice letting my body cure the flu, i'd be hit harder by avian flu and possibly die - whereas someone else who got the flu (or fought it off without using a vaccine) would be better able to fight off avian flu?

Does that make any sense? Am i oversimplifying it? Thoughts?

[attachedmamaof3]

I get it and I believe it.

Not only that, but I believe that by vaccinating against "harmless" illnesses such as the chickenpox, flu, etc we are creating "room" (if you will) for other more serious germs to move in...ones that we will have a harder time fighting.

It's like taking The Hygiene Hypothesis to the next level.

[angie7]

I think so too. It makes sense to me. And lets hope you are right when that "killer germ" rears its ugly head.

[amydep]

Makes complete sense to me too.

[prettypixels]

So do you think vaccinated people never get sick, or exposed to germs?

[Sheal]

ITA with your thoughts happy1nluv

[holly6737]

That is false. Our immune system doesn't work that way. What you get when you get a vaccine or when you get a disease is disease specific immunity. It doesn't strengthen the immune system as a whole, only the immune system's response to that specific pathogen. In fact, serious VPDs can leave the body worse off than it was before infection. Think about bacterial meningitis, for instance, or polio. It would be wonderful if we could work our immune system that way, similar to a muscle, but that idea is false.

The thing is, your immune system is on the ball every single day. It eliminates pathogens or foreign particles constantly. VPDs don't give the immune system special "practice" b/c it's working all of the time.

DH, the other day, said "I want to get every vaccine known to man. Then I will be immune to everything and my immune system will be so strong I'll even become immune to AIDS and cancer!" (he was being facetious). I had to gently explain, "It doesn't work that way. You get disease specific immunity. And some of those vaccines have a 1 in 200 serious side effect (one that's not on our schedule in the US)."

[prettypixels]

Originally Posted by holly6737

That is false. Our immune system doesn't work that way. What you get when you get a vaccine or when you get a disease is disease specific immunity. It doesn't strengthen the immune system as a whole, only the immune system's response to that specific pathogen. In fact, serious VPDs can leave the body worse off than it was before infection. Think about bacterial meningitis, for instance, or polio. It would be wonderful if we could work our immune system that way, similar to a muscle, but that idea is false.

The thing is, your immune system is on the ball every single day. It eliminates pathogens or foreign particles constantly. VPDs don't give the immune system special "practice" b/c it's working all of the time.

DH, the other day, said "I want to get every vaccine known to man. Then I will be immune to everything and my immune system will be so strong I'll even become immune to AIDS and cancer!" (he was being facetious). I had to gently explain, "It doesn't work that way. You get disease specific immunity. And some of those vaccines have a 1 in 200 serious side effect (one that's not on our schedule in the US)."

: !!!

[WillyMom]

I agree with Holly6737

[Gitti]

Here is a site you'll enjoy -

http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web6.html

And yes, I agree! Disease makes you stronger.

[holly6737]

Originally Posted by Gitti

And yes, I agree! Disease makes you stronger.

There is just no basis in science for this assertion if you are referring to anything but disease specific immunity.

ETA: And your page isn't loading.

[Fyrestorm]

I had read a thread here a while back showing children make developmental leaps after recovering from a VAD.

Can anyone dig that up?

[dymanic]

Originally Posted by happy1nluv

If I got the flu vax religiously, and then never got the flu (yeah, i know...but go with me here) ... and then the avian flu appeared -- since i didn't have practice letting my body cure the flu, i'd be hit harder by avian flu and possibly die - whereas someone else who got the flu (or fought it off without using a vaccine) would be better able to fight off avian flu?

Before 1945, no vaccine against influenza existed, so every single one of the 20 to 40 million people who were killed by the strain of avian influenza that crossed the species barrier in 1918 could be said to have been taking exactly this approach (and keep in mind that a disproportionately high percentage of the fatalities were young, previously healthy adults). Antibodies to currently circulating strains of influenza (whether aquired by infection or vaccination) are unlikely to provide much protection against a novel virus such as H5N1. That's precisely what all the fuss is about.

[attachedmamaof3]

Fyrestorm- I saw that too...just looked for it and couldn't find it..granted, couldn't go too far back since my computer is going sooooo slowly. Looked back to Nov. 17th and my computer crashed so...dang. I can't remember if it was one of the threads that got deleted.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by attachedmamaof3

Fyrestorm- I saw that too...just looked for it and couldn't find it..granted, couldn't go too far back since my computer is going sooooo slowly. Looked back to Nov. 17th and my computer crashed so...dang. I can't remember if it was one of the threads that got deleted.

I must have missed that one...I was thinking it was back over the summer...I'll go see if I can dig it up in later (or tomorrow..I need SLEEP!!)

[prettypixels]

I would be very very interested in information showing children make developmental leaps specifically after a VPD. But then, kids are always making developmental leaps. My baby has made several this week. Could it be... coincidence?

[Fyrestorm]

Here is one quote on measles from the Lancet:

An article taken from the Lancet, 1985 [55], may be of decisive importance:

Persons who have never had any visible indication of measles, i.e., never developed the skin rash of measles, suffer more frequently from non measles associated diseases." "The data show a highly significant correlation between lack of measles exanthema and auto-immune diseases, seborrhoeic skin diseases, degenerative diseases of the bones and certain tumors . . . We think that the rash is caused by a cell mitigated immune reaction, which destroys the cells infected with the measles virus. If this is correct, the missing exanthema may indicate that intracellular virus components have escaped neutralization during the acute infection. This may later lead to the aforementioned diseases... The presence of specific antibodies at the time of infection interferes with the normal immune response against the measles virus, in particular with the development of the specific cell mitigated immunity (and/or cyto-toxic reactions). The intracellular measles virus can then survive the acute infection and cause diseases manifesting in the adult age.

[Fyrestorm]

another from BMJ

[Science Mom]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm

another from BMJ

They concluded that family size and certain infections did not affect the outcome of atopy and asthma and measles may affect outcome. This study was not designed to be able to viably test their hypothesis. There are data that indicate that it is fever that may have an effect upon childhood development and if that is the case, and nothing near conclusive, then there are plenty of fever-producing illnesses out there and always will be.

SM

[Deborah]

Originally Posted by Science Mom

They concluded that family size and certain infections did not affect the outcome of atopy and asthma and measles may affect outcome. This study was not designed to be able to viably test their hypothesis. There are data that indicate that it is fever that may have an effect upon childhood development and if that is the case, and nothing near conclusive, then there are plenty of fever-producing illnesses out there and always will be.

SM

Alas, in addition to the encouragement to vax for anything and everything, parents are also encouraged to interfere with fever, each and every time.

Yes, in my experience a good hot fever lasting 24 hours or more does wonders for a child's overall health and development. How many children have an opportunity to go through such a fever, nowadays? How many parents have the confidence to allow their child to be ***sick***?