Why are kids from other countries smarter then our kids? - Page 3

[ManiacMama]

Originally Posted by glendora

Yeah, I know quite a few people from the Middle East that went home. Not everyone likes it here.

Right. Generally, I don't think the world's view of the US is really that favorable. In the case of S. Korea, most people are now looking to go to places like New Zealand, Australia, Canada or the UK to study or live. Most Koreans, though, really just want to learn English fluently so they can go back to Korea to get a good job or further the progress of their country. They are fiercely proud of their country and people which is why they work and study so hard to get ahead. The few that do emigrate nowadays do so for lifestyle changes (slower pace of life) and they look to the other countries I mentioned rather than the US.

[UUMom]

All of the Korean teens I know who attend private secondary boarding schools here (not college-- secondary schools-- high school) already speak perfect English. They are here because the competition for slots in Korean schools are open to only so many, and can be quite the pressure cooker for those not cut out for the pressure cooker. If you aren't testing a certain way right away, you don't get a spot. If your parents don't have money, you are pretty much out of the running, unless you have shown yourself to be intellectualy special (and have excellent test-taking skills) in some way. This has nothing whasoever to do with cultural Korean or Indian pride. These kids go home. Their parents have not emmigrated.

[Missy]

Originally Posted by mommy68

well yes, but how many of these people do you know who come here and actually go back. I'm sure only a small percentage actually go back to their native country to live the rest of their life after becoming educated here. Many of them stay here and start families and live the rest of their lives. So I see it more as them becoming educated as children and then moving here so they can have a better life one day.

My first year in college was spent at what is considered to be one of the most diverse schools in the country; it is also well-known for its business/economic depts. I knew of many students from India, the Middle East, countries in Africa, who came here strictly for broadening their families' global opportunities. It was a chance to network, a chance to be immersed in American culture, to hear the "inside" of the American business world for a little while, in order to take that experience home. They came from families with money and they were using their American experience to make more money by expanding their visions and perspectives and by making different connections. For these students, it was a business strategy. Their lives back home were already pretty good. We tend to have a pretty limited, dim view of the rest of the world.

[ManiacMama]

Originally Posted by UUMom

All of the Korean teens I know who attend private secondary boarding schools here (not college-- secondary schools-- high school) already speak perfect English. They are here because the competition for slots in Korean schools are open to only so many, and can be quite the pressure cooker for those not cut out for the pressure cooker. If you aren't testing a certain way right away, you don't get a spot. If your parents don't have money, you are pretty much out of the running, unless you have shown yourself to be intellectualy special (and have excellent test-taking skills) in some way. This has nothing whasoever to do with cultural Korean or Indian pride. These kids go home. Their parents have not emmigrated.

Do you mean these kids come for secondary boarding school, stay through college and then go home in order to avoid the pressure cooker of the college entrance exam and getting into a top notch university? If so, that makes sense. There are a lot of Koreans that don't like the pressure of the current education system and may choose to "opt out" like that for their kids if they have the money to do so.

It's also a status thing to be able to send your child abroad for school. It is kind of a Korean pride thing, but it's really hard I think for Americans to understand as it's complex to understand how a particular society ticks unless you've been inside it. I had a student who came here to the US to secondary boarding school and intended to stay through college before returning home. It was for her to become fluent in English and experience living abroad, but since pretty much all Korean women marry and have families and most discontinue working, it really comes down to status.

Koreans can learn to speak English fairly well after many years of private institute instruction with a native speaker (which most do), but it would be a real stretch to say it is perfect English. Speaking English in Korea is really different than speaking English in the US. Immersion in the language works wonders I watched this fascinating journey with my own dh. He was a good English speaker before coming here, yet he struggled hard the first few years in the US. Eleven years later he's improved immensely and is fluent but definitely not perfect. It makes for lots of funny stories

[Milky Way]

Originally Posted by Tinkerszs

One difference I see is the emphasis placed on the struggling students. Most of our time and resources go to the special ed, ELL, or below grade level students. We forget about the GT child or the on-grade level child. After being forgotten for awhile the smart kids give up and start screwing around. Now nobody is achieving on the state tests.

As a teacher this is EXACTLY what I see going on today. The high school I teach at bends over backwards to help ESL and learning disabled kids to the point they have cut almost all honors classes and have done away with the AP courses. I would say the school spends 25-30% of it's resources on 2-5% of the students, all in the name of test scores.

[Leersia]

One difference between our educational culture and those in other countries (I've read) is that we put a lot of stock in innate abilities (in math, music, whatever) and inborn talent, whereas other cultures foster the idea that you can excel in any of these areas with hard work. And hard work they do. And the research has shown that the latter educational culture produces people who love to learn.

Just a thought. . . .

[quaz]

http://www.tap2015.org/news/EdWeek12.10.07.pdf

This one is an interesting paper.

Tammy

[velochic]

Originally Posted by glendora

Yeah, I know quite a few people from the Middle East that went home. Not everyone likes it here.

Hmmm... my dh is from the Middle East. ALL of his friends stayed... and over the past 30 years since he came here as an undergrad (has his PhD now and is a professor) his friends have actually had most of their families immigrate. They love it here!

I could say a lot about why I think kids from other countries are smarter, but it would take a book. To sum up MY opinion... kids here are lazy, their parents are lazy, the teachers are lazy, and they ALL think they should get a gold star for showing up. It's called entitlement. In other countries, kids WORK to get a good education and understand that you have to STUDY and do HOMEWORK to get a good education. Here, everyone gets their panties in a bunch if their kids have to lug home a piece of paper. Might be why in the entire school of science at my dh's university there is not one single American professor and why all of my dh's PhD students are here on visas.

[Mommabelle]

Whew..just read through this thread. One thing interesting that I found out while living in Germany is that cheating is widespread and overlooked. The teachers ignore it on purpose. I couldn't believe it. Their answer was that there is no way one could learn all that was required. So..maybe that has something to do with the test scores.

[RomanGoddess]

Have you seen this thread?

This thread discusses the 2006 results of the OECD study on education in different countries. Finland came out best, as usual. USA did not do too well. Canada came out in the top 5.

Funny that two countries so close together and with such similar cultures and education systems can have such different results.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6#post10162616.

[writermommy]

http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Gap-S.../dp/0671880764

This is a good book that I read when I was taking a course on Multicultural Education in college. The study really delves into the differences, not only in the schools, but in the homes and society as well.

[choli]

Originally Posted by glendora

Yeah, I know quite a few people from the Middle East that went home. Not everyone likes it here.

Practically all of the tens of 1000s of Irish-born that were here in the US went home when the Irish economy improved 10 years ago.

The US is no longer such a great place to live.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

Which countries?

Because I have seen comparisons with countries such as Canada, and western European countries. While I can't speak for other countries, I know that our students are measured on the same achievement scale. I assumed most Europeans countries were similar.

The Western European countries that I am familiar with do not attempt to educate all their children to a postsecondary level. They have a strong vocational system and they channel children who will not do as well into that system.

I attended school in England for a year in high school (not as an exchange student; as part of my dad's job). Anything comparing "high school seniors" starts out with the difficulty that only about 15% of UK students go on to A-levels, which are the equivalent of our Jr and Sr year of high school (with a little early college thrown in). Only about 5% go to University. Numbers are similar for Germany, I believe.

How can you compare those populations? You're comparing a pool of students that includes just about everyone with a pool that has been filtered to exclude the lower-achieving students.

[writermommy]

Originally Posted by savithny

The Western European countries that I am familiar with do not attempt to educate all their children to a postsecondary level. They have a strong vocational system and they channel children who will not do as well into that system.

I attended school in England for a year in high school (not as an exchange student; as part of my dad's job). Anything comparing "high school seniors" starts out with the difficulty that only about 15% of UK students go on to A-levels, which are the equivalent of our Jr and Sr year of high school (with a little early college thrown in). Only about 5% go to University. Numbers are similar for Germany, I believe.

How can you compare those populations? You're comparing a pool of students that includes just about everyone with a pool that has been filtered to exclude the lower-achieving students.

This is actually one of the arguments used for the declining status of American students over the past several generations. In the past, a small percentage of the population went to high school at all, much less graduated. In the post World War II era, this began to change and greater numbers began to attend throughout high school. The result is falling achievement. With standardized testing beginning to be a criteria for graduation, I predict we will see a back slide with more dropping out of school since they can't pass the mandated testing.

[RomanGoddess]

Originally Posted by savithny

The Western European countries that I am familiar with do not attempt to educate all their children to a postsecondary level. They have a strong vocational system and they channel children who will not do as well into that system.

I attended school in England for a year in high school (not as an exchange student; as part of my dad's job). Anything comparing "high school seniors" starts out with the difficulty that only about 15% of UK students go on to A-levels, which are the equivalent of our Jr and Sr year of high school (with a little early college thrown in). Only about 5% go to University. Numbers are similar for Germany, I believe.

How can you compare those populations? You're comparing a pool of students that includes just about everyone with a pool that has been filtered to exclude the lower-achieving students.

The OECD PISA studies test children at at 15 in reading, science and math. At age 15, schooling is still compulsory for everyone. It is only after that that kids do vocational training or pursue the more academic course (A levels in the UK, lycee in France, etc).

The one exception I can think of is Germany, where children are "streamed" earlier, I believe. And it is precisely in Germany where the OECD show the differences between children in their knowledge of math, reading and science is quite stark.

[Kelly71]

Originally Posted by Milky Way

As a teacher this is EXACTLY what I see going on today. The high school I teach at bends over backwards to help ESL and learning disabled kids to the point they have cut almost all honors classes and have done away with the AP courses. I would say the school spends 25-30% of it's resources on 2-5% of the students, all in the name of test scores.

I am also a teacher and you are 100% correct. Average and above average kids are the ones being "left behind" because the mindset is that they will learn in spite of what we do. At our middle schools, all classes of 30+ students are heterogeneous, so in essence, you could have the student with the highest cognitive ability in a class with a student with the lowest cognitive ability. Then throw in ELLs and and you have a typical inclusion classroom. Inevitably, the pacing of the class remains in line with the lowest common denominator. Differentiation only allows for so much--with one teacher in a class of 30+ students, someone is always left with independent study. It's a complete sham.

[MountainLovinMama]

Originally Posted by writermommy

This is actually one of the arguments used for the declining status of American students over the past several generations. In the past, a small percentage of the population went to high school at all, much less graduated. In the post World War II era, this began to change and greater numbers began to attend throughout high school. The result is falling achievement. With standardized testing beginning to be a criteria for graduation, I predict we will see a back slide with more dropping out of school since they can't pass the mandated testing.

And tests are dumbed down and standards lowered so that more students can pass the mandated testing and states can meet their requirements. It is falling expectations as well as falling achievement.

[MountainLovinMama]

Originally Posted by Kelly71

I am also a teacher and you are 100% correct. Average and above average kids are the ones being "left behind" because the mindset is that they will learn in spite of what we do. At our middle schools, all classes of 30+ students are heterogeneous, so in essence, you could have the student with the highest cognitive ability in a class with a student with the lowest cognitive ability. Then throw in ELLs and and you have a typical inclusion classroom. Inevitably, the pacing of the class remains in line with the lowest common denominator. Differentiation only allows for so much--with one teacher in a class of 30+ students, someone is always left with independent study. It's a complete sham.

I agree. I think it is a real problem. The highest cognitive ability kids in this scenario are often bored, often acting out, and at the very least are not at all achieving at or near their potential. Our nation's intellectual resources are being squandered in the name of equal opportunity. And somehow it is taboo to even suggest giving extra resources to the "above average" kids, while it is universally applauded to give generous extra resources to the "under-performing" sector. I am not suggesting that low-performing students or special needs students shouldn't get generous extra resources, but if we want to be competitive in an international environment and global economy, we better allocate funding and attention to the high-performing sector as well.

[bczmama]

A number of posters have kept on saying "how similar" the US is to Canada. But the truth is, we're not. Canada's minority distribution is very different than the US -- there is not the black and hispanic population there as in the States. Canadians of Asian (including SE Asian) heritage make up more than 50% of the "visible minority" population of Canada.

Do black and hispanic Canadians have the same sort of standardized testing gap that has been shown over long years in the States? If not, that would be extremely interesting -- whether the gap never existed, or if it did, how Canada has managed to close it.