Not sure whose advice to follow... - Page 3

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by perspective

Its just been my experience from all the uncut males i've known (in life or online) that the separating process was something they slowly caused themselves every time they played/stretched/washed their foreskin.

Those activities definitely encourage retraction, but if the foreskin were not 'ready' or someone other than the boy himself were manipulating the foreskin, it could be painful and might lead to tears/bleeding. That readiness seems to be an individual thing.

I just want to have a positive, straight to the facts discussion.

...which is difficult because you're basing your expertise on secondhand rumor. How have you come about polling such a presumably large number of intact men about their foreskin development?

I do have some personal experiences that, to me, dont connect with some of the advice given. Whats going on here?

The only "personal experience" you can have is handling your own penis or someone else's penis. If you're talking to large numbers of intact men on messageboards somewhere that's a.) secondhand information, and b.) not scientific.

People do horrible, and stupid things to their childrens genitals, because they never take the time to be educated. Now, I will NEVER circumcise my children, but I know I have a lot to learn, and thankfully I still have the time to get it all right.

Unfortunately, many of the reasons parents circumcise their infant sons are cultural and rumor-based. They've heard intact penises are gross and dirty and difficult to keep clean. They've heard women prefer cut. They've heard horror stories about intact men in American nursing homes. This is the danger in reaching conclusions about issues based on what others have told you, through the grapevine...as opposed to doing reviewing actual research.

While you're still researching and learning consider please, please, please consider NOT advising parents on manipulating/retracting the foreskins of young boys. The AAP says, "Forcing the foreskin to retract before it is ready may severely harm the penis and cause pain, bleeding and tears in the skin." This is a serious issue.

Jen

[Papai]

Ladies, chill.

Perspective has said some misinformation but I don't think that's a reason to question why he's here.

He stated in his intro post why he decided to check out mothering and I don't think we need to be hostile toward him for having some questions or getting something wrong.

Perspective, as for for actively helping the foreskin retract by pulling, masturbating and washing, you are right. I don't really have the answer for that, but perhaps someone else can shed more light on it. From my understanding, the "separation" is done by hormones and then I suppose if the hormones haven't done it all on their own, boys just finish the task manually? Not sure.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

All the tugging little boys do helps to start the process. When the time comes and they figure it out they will try to pull it back instead of just tugging this also helps the process along.

My theory is that boys who mess with theirs more tend to become retractable earlier than boys who just have no interest in messing with it that much. I dont have any way to prove that but it does make sense when you think about it.

I just noticed to that we have totally been ignoring the OP Maybe a new thread should be started on the forced retraction and continuing to retract after thing.

[pdx.mothernurture]

I guess my general philosophy is that parents should leave the foreskin alone in the exact same way they keep their fingers out of a little girl's vaginal opening; I don't care how old she is or if they're just curious or checking or stretching or whatever. There's no need, and it's a private part. It will be able to accommodate a penis in it's own time, whether the girl herself has a role in that preparation or it's just a matter of hormones. It's a natural process. It's sexuality. It's puberty. It's personal.

Jen

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

: : Well said Jen

[perspective]

Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture

There's a difference between separation of the foreskin (dissolving of the natural adhesions or "synechia") and the progressive stretchiness of the preputial sphincter at the foreskin's tip. Both of these things, as well as the length and elasticity of of the frenulum, impact retractibility. Separation often happens all by itself or is 'helped along' with the innocent/subconscious pulling, tugging, and stretching little boys do. To my knowledge, separation generally occurs fairly early in life, usually by the age of 5; ballooning of the foreskin is common because separation typically happens first. The ability to stretch the foreskin over the glans and all the way back frequently happens much later and yes, is a mechanical function that boys often actively encourage during washing and masturbation.



Perspective:
Just curious...are you American? How did you become interested in this issue? Do you have children? What brought you to Mothering?

Thanks,

Jen

Hey Jen,

So if it is both a biological function as well as a process determined by other factors, it does not really help determine if the bond is a one time thing. But I have read over some of the links, and I am starting to get the answer to my question (what should a parent do with baby boy whose foreskin has been ripped off the glans?) and what I hear is that the foreskin should be reapplied. I guess my question now is, what kind of "bond" is reformed after a foreskin gets ripped off the glans? Does the foreskin and glans reform into the EXACT same state where they are fused on cellular level, or is it different to some extent now. Also since the foreskin has been torn off, there are bond to be small cuts, what prevents those cuts from healing improperly to the glans?

o, and to answer your other questions, Yes I am an American. I am an 18 year old male. I became involved in the issue the moment I was circumcised. But I became interested in this issue because I am a male, and am a strong advocate for the integrity, and respect for the male body. And this understanding has led me to also be a strong advocate for the respect and integrity of the female body as well.

[thixle]

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X

I just noticed to that we have totally been ignoring the OP Maybe a new thread should be started on the forced retraction and continuing to retract after thing.

I think it still apllies to the OP- it IS a question of forced retraction (from the beginning of a circ) and continued retraction.

Perspective has said some misinformation but I don't think that's a reason to question why he's here.

Woops! I meant why is he posting on this thread, not the forum! This thread was asking for opinions about the advice of both. Medical research was given for NOT retracting, but no research given FOR retraction... just justifications for "believing" retraction was good. And that probably didn't come out right either But I do think some scientific reasoning should be given to the Pros of forced retraction in this thread (???) That way it is not taken out on a single person.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

I dont think there really is a way to know for sure if the bond is the same after as it was before. As far as I know there have been no studies on that.

There will be raw spots that heal back and those raw spots may very well stick together improperly. If that happens and when the boy becomes naturally retractable and there is a spot or 2 that just wont let go then steroid cream along with stretching can cause them to release. If that fails then they may need to be cut. That is simple enough to do later one if needed.

[lyttlewon]

OP can your urologist call your pediatrician and tell him the proper procedure? Sometimes doctors need to hear it from other doctors. Also it will help your pediatrician when he comes across another child like yours.

[QueenOfThePride]

Originally Posted by perspective

I guess my question now is, what kind of "bond" is reformed after a foreskin gets ripped off the glans? Does the foreskin and glans reform into the EXACT same state where they are fused on cellular level, or is it different to some extent now.

It's hard to say what happens for sure at the cellular level. To get the real answer to that, you'd have to take tissue samples off a cadaver and examine it microscopically. But there is scientific evidence (I think someone posted the link) that adhesions following infant circumcision mostly dissolve on their own within a few to several years. Logically, this would indicate that the original synechia does re-form in it's original state and comes loose when biologically determined.

Originally Posted by perspective

Also since the foreskin has been torn off, there are bond to be small cuts, what prevents those cuts from healing improperly to the glans?

In some cases, this does happen where you have real scar tissue permanently adhere the damaged foreskin to the damaged glans. In my opinion, the best course of action is to just leave it alone until the person is old enough to decide he is ready to have them surgically lysed with proper local anesthesia. At that point, he will also be old enough to do the after-care himself of applying some kind of lubricant until healing is complete.

Originally Posted by perspective

Ok, that makes sense, but then what about the guys who are in their late teens who have to physically, slowly stretch the foreskin themselves, did this biological process just not occur in them? Why would that be?

I don't know why, but just because a few men have retraction issues doesn't mean that little boys should be intentionally retracted. In fact, forced retraction in little boys creates scar tissue at the tip of the foreskin that can make retraction impossible at a later age. There are two parts of retraction - the dissolution of the synechia, and the loosening of the foreskin opening.

Also I thought of something else after my first post. You asked something like, 'why doesn't the foreskin re-adhere after natural retraction?' There is a biological change in the surfaces of the skin. Going back to kittens - after their eyes open, they don't seal back up. They just don't, because the skin changes. There is a phase in human fetal development where the fetus' eyelids are also sealed shut. Once they open, they stay open. There is no need to fear that your eyes are going to re-adhere while you are sleeping. Once the foreskin has detached on its own there is likewise no reason to fear that it is going to stick back together. Thus, there is no need for any parent to routinely retract their son for cleaning or to prevent adhesions or any such nonsense.

Does that make any sense?

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

QOTP that is a great way of explaining it. You go mama :

[perspective]

Originally Posted by QueenOfThePride

It's hard to say what happens for sure at the cellular level. To get the real answer to that, you'd have to take tissue samples off a cadaver and examine it microscopically. But there is scientific evidence (I think someone posted the link) that adhesions following infant circumcision mostly dissolve on their own within a few to several years. Logically, this would indicate that the original synechia does re-form in it's original state and comes loose when biologically determined.



In some cases, this does happen where you have real scar tissue permanently adhere the damaged foreskin to the damaged glans. In my opinion, the best course of action is to just leave it alone until the person is old enough to decide he is ready to have them surgically lysed with proper local anesthesia. At that point, he will also be old enough to do the after-care himself of applying some kind of lubricant until healing is complete.



I don't know why, but just because a few men have retraction issues doesn't mean that little boys should be intentionally retracted. In fact, forced retraction in little boys creates scar tissue at the tip of the foreskin that can make retraction impossible at a later age. There are two parts of retraction - the dissolution of the synechia, and the loosening of the foreskin opening.

Also I thought of something else after my first post. You asked something like, 'why doesn't the foreskin re-adhere after natural retraction?' There is a biological change in the surfaces of the skin. Going back to kittens - after their eyes open, they don't seal back up. They just don't, because the skin changes. There is a phase in human fetal development where the fetus' eyelids are also sealed shut. Once they open, they stay open. There is no need to fear that your eyes are going to re-adhere while you are sleeping. Once the foreskin has detached on its own there is likewise no reason to fear that it is going to stick back together. Thus, there is no need for any parent to routinely retract their son for cleaning or to prevent adhesions or any such nonsense.

Does that make any sense?

Not only did that make sense, but it was also really interesting.

thanks a lot ^_^