Amount of aluminum in vaccines - detailed list - Page 3

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by Plummeting

Wait, we have a bunch of people saying that aluminum is safe, based on research that they don't have, don't know who conducted, don't know the methods used to conduct it, don't know the point in history during which said research was supposedly conducted and can't figure out where to find any of that out....and some people (at the FDA, I mean) are still willing to believe that the conclusion of the study is accurate??? The study that for all anyone knows doesn't even exist?

It would be like me marching in here and saying, "Hey, guys! No need to worry. Tetanus can be cured with a 3 mg dose of ascorbic acid. I don't know where I read that, but I did read it somewhere," and then everyone believing me, because I said it was true. We have people in the FDA basically doing that - believing something because someone told them it was true - and we're supposed to trust these people? People who can't even figure out that you don't believe something just because someone told you it was true? Yeah, I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Science Mom

There is that and if they cobbled together a maximum aluminum content per dose then why is there no limit when considering multiple doses for infants? That is what I take exception to. Sure, great to regulate single doses but what good is that if they are not going to set maximum exposure limits.

SM

I agree.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by Science Mom

There is that and if they cobbled together a maximum aluminum content per dose then why is there no limit when considering multiple doses for infants?

I wonder if they were only looking at local reactions???

That's a scary thought.

I was thinking all the al adjuvanted shots given at once could be considered one collective thing, but if the limit was set by just evaluating injection site swelling or something lame like that, then maybe not.
The limit was set during the era when the now-debunked depot theory was accepted, though. It really wouldn't surprise my if that was the extent of what they were evaluating.
Then again, I'm a cynic.

[PlayaMama]

i keep getting confused by the notation being used here.

microgram is abbreviated mcg or ug (it's actually the greek letter u but i'm not sure how to find that here) but never mg.

milligram is abbreviated mg.

a microgram is 1/1000th of a mg.

so when i read that the daily limit for adults was 8 mg i was pretty astounded. 8 ug is a much more palatable number.

though it appears that maybe the intention there was 8 milligrams....

i just found this:

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp22.html

it might be helpful

[mamakay]

Orally, humans can consume LOTS of aluminum, because the gut does such a good job of keeping aluminum out of your system. (1 to .1 % is all that gets absorbed that way).

It's injected aluminum (or aluminum coming in IV) that we probably don't deal with so well. The uptake there is 100%, so the threshold for toxicity is much lower.

[Gitti]

SM could you address this please -

Plummeting quoted:

...we have a bunch of people saying that aluminum is safe, based on research that they don't have, don't know who conducted, don't know the methods used to conduct it, don't know the point in history during which said research was supposedly conducted and can't figure out where to find any of that out....and some people (at the FDA, I mean) are still willing to believe that the conclusion of the study is accurate??? The study that for all anyone knows doesn't even exist?

[Gitti]

Also SM am I understanding this correctly -

Aluminum in foods has an absorption rate of 1% to .1%

while absorption rate of aluminum from vaccines is 100%

???

And now we find out that we don't even know who or how they decided the amount of Al in food is safe?

And they are basing the "safe" amounts of Al in vaccines on an unknown "safe" ingestible amount?

I am just blown away by that.

It is all based on lies.

[Deborah]

No, come on Gitti, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. They are just really, really confused.

But it is pretty strange that they lost the research. But they are still assuming that the safe levels are safe.

And are they really assuming that the safe levels they have established for food, also apply for injections, even though it is perfectly obvious that more will be absorbed via injection than via digestion? Could the FDA really be that...unaware...of course they allowed the amount of thimerosal (50% mercury) that babies were getting to go way, way up and didn't notice, so perhaps they really are that sleepy?

[PlayaMama]

okay, here's some interesting stuff i found here:

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles...tml#bookmark12

under the health effects section. the entire article is 117 pages long and deals with lots of data for oral, inhalation, and dermal exposure, i skimmed about the first 75 pages and came upon this regarding injections of aluminum citrate (which from what i can tell is NOT in vaccines):

Human and animal studies have investigated the aluminum retention in the body. Within the first day of 26 Al citrate, approximately 59% of the dose was excreted in the urine of six receiving a single injection of
subjects; 72 and 1.2% was excreted in the urine and feces, respectively, during the first 5 days (Talbot et al. 1995). At the end of 5 days, it was estimated that 27% of the dose was retained in the body (Priest et al. 1995; Talbot et al. 1995).
When 26 Al levels were monitored more than 3 years after a single subject
received the injection, a half-life of approximately 7 years was calculated (Priest et al. 1995). However,
when the subject was re-examined approximately 10 years after the injection, a half-life of about 50 years was estimated (Priest 2004).

the complete preist citation is this:
*Priest ND. 1993. Satellite symposium on ‘Alzheimer's disease and dietary aluminum’: The bioavailability and metabolism of aluminum compounds in man. Proc Nutr Soc 52:231-240.
*Priest ND. 2004. The biological behaviour and bioavailability of aluminum in man, with special reference to studies employing aluminum-26 as a tracer: Review and study update. J Environ Monit 6(5):375-403.
*Priest ND, Newton D, Day JP, et al. 1995. Human metabolism of aluminum-26 and gallium-67 injected as citrates. Hum Exp Toxicol 14(3):287-293.
*Priest ND, Talbot RJ, Austin JG, et al. 1996. The bioavailability of
aluminum hydroxide in volunteers. BioMetals 9(3):221-228


this was about rabbits but it was the only thing i've found regarding the types of aluminum found in vaccines.

Flarend et al. (1997) estimated aluminum absorption in rabbits following intramuscular injection of labelled aluminum hydroxide or aluminum phosphate adjuvants used for vaccines. Aluminum from both
solutions was absorbed, appearing in the blood as early as 1 hour after injection. Three times as much aluminum from the aluminum phosphate adjuvant was absorbed during the first 28 days after exposure;
since the terminal phase of the blood concentration curve was not reached by that time, this difference may be due to differences in the rate of absorption.

*Flarend RE, Hem SL, White JL, et al. 1997. In vivo absorption of aluminum-containing vaccine adjuvants using 26 Al. Vaccine 15(12-13)1314-1317.

i haven't followed these up yet so i'm not sure what they'll say but it seems like it might be interesting either way.

[Science Mom]

Originally Posted by Gitti

Plummeting quoted:...we have a bunch of people saying that aluminum is safe, based on research that they don't have, don't know who conducted, don't know the methods used to conduct it, don't know the point in history during which said research was supposedly conducted and can't figure out where to find any of that out....and some people (at the FDA, I mean) are still willing to believe that the conclusion of the study is accurate??? The study that for all anyone knows doesn't even exist?

You asked me to address this. I don't think it is as willy-nilly as that but there seems to be a leap of faith required. The research leading to the ascertainment of the maximum allowable aluminum concentration in vaccines is there, just unknown to us. For when you think about it, do we know the logical progression leading to the ascertainment of allowable workplace radiation exposure limits? The limit of sulfur in diesel fuel? The ban of arsenic in pressure-treated lumber? I am not defending it, just explaining and if we do the right searches and/or ask the right questions of the right people, we may be able to elucidate that.

SM

[Science Mom]

Originally Posted by Gitti

Aluminum in foods has an absorption rate of 1% to .1%
while absorption rate of aluminum from vaccines is 100%
???

That is correct and there is also the excretion rate for aluminum via vaccines. Our total body burden of aluminum is mostly from dietary sources.

And now we find out that we don't even know who or how they decided the amount of Al in food is safe?
And they are basing the "safe" amounts of Al in vaccines on an unknown "safe" ingestible amount?

Studies of oral, dermal, inhalation and to a lesser degree, injection along with efficacy studies have all been used to set the maximum allowable limit. It is exactly how this was done that is the question.

SM

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by SM

I am not defending it, just explaining and if we do the right searches and/or ask the right questions of the right people, we may be able to elucidate that.

If the guy in charge of the FDA's vaccine department couldn't locate it, I find it unlikely that we'd be able to.
Gut feeling.

Studies of oral, dermal, inhalation and to a lesser degree, injection along with efficacy studies have all been used to set the maximum allowable limit. It is exactly how this was done that is the question.

SM

Or maybe someone in 1932 figured out that at 1 mg al per shot, you start seeing more swelling at the injection site, and that's where the limit came from.
Could be anything...

[Gitti]

n/m

[mamakay]

Just to back up a minute...

8 mg is the average adult intake orally, of which 1-.1% gets absorbed.

.85 mg is the max allowed in a vaccine, and no one can find the research this limit was based on.

[Gitti]

Whenever the comparison is made between ingesting and injecting vaccine ingredients like metals, vax proponents say there is no difference.

But by ingesting aluminum, only 1% max is absorbed.

So that is 8mg x 1% is .08mg which is considered "safe" to be absorbed by a 180 lbs. man. Right?

Yet a baby vaccine can contain up to .85mg and is absorbed 100% by a 10 lbs. infant?


Please tell me I am figuring this all wrong.

[Science Mom]

Originally Posted by Gitti

Whenever the comparison is made between ingesting and injecting vaccine ingredients like metals, vax proponents say there is no difference.

That is not accurate, there is a difference and anyone that knows about the issue knows this. The context is is that you ingest/inhale far more over your lifetime that comprises the majority of your body burden of aluminum. Vaccines administer a bolus that is initially higher than ingested aluminum but most is excreted within 24 hours and continues to be excreted.

But by ingesting aluminum, only 1% max is absorbed.

So that is 8mg x 1% is .08mg which is considered "safe" to be absorbed by a 180 lbs. man. Right?

Yet a baby vaccine can contain up to .85mg and is absorbed 100% by a 10 lbs. infant?

Please tell me I am figuring this all wrong.

Yeah, you kind of are. That figure is actually a low average of what an average human consumes per day. There are some some human studies of IM and IV aluminum effects that shed some light on toxicity thresholds. Human and animal (mostly) oral ingestion studies demonstrate a far higher amount can be consumed before toxicity is observed. I would presume that all this information is considered, then correction factors are taken, excretion rates factored, age/weight corrections and somehow wind up with the 0.85 mg maximum level.

SM

[mamakay]

I would presume that all this information is considered, then correction factors are taken, excretion rates factored, age/weight corrections and somehow wind up with the 0.85 mg maximum level.

You have a LOT more faith in the people behind the immunization program than I do.

The .85 mg limit was set a long, long time ago. Not sure how long, but it's been a good long while, for sure. I'd bet $100 it was set decades before the excretion rates were even known, AND that age/weight factors weren't ever even considered.
Too bad I can't prove that my cynical intuitive guess is right, though.

[Science Mom]

Well I was going to suggest a rousing game of 'pin the tail on the aluminum level' but that seemed too flip.

SM

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by Science Mom

Vaccines administer a bolus ...

Right!

that is initially higher than ingested aluminum but most is excreted within 24 hours and continues to be excreted.

Every human body is unique.

That figure is actually a low average of what an average human consumes per day.

8.5 mg is what the FDA considers "safe". Only that amount and no more. And we don't even know how that information came about.

Human and animal (mostly) oral ingestion studies demonstrate a far higher amount can be consumed before toxicity is observed.

And that would go against the FDA "safe" amount.
We are talking about vaccines for newborns and very young children. Should some such study as you mentioned above be even considered?

[insider]

Originally Posted by Science Mom

Vaccines administer a bolus that is initially higher than ingested aluminum but most is excreted within 24 hours and continues to be excreted.

References, please?

Your statement is absolutely incorrect.

The Flarend study (which keeps getting cited by vaccine advocates) shows 17% of injected aluminum is excreted in 28 days. That contradicts your above statement that more than 50% is excreted in the first day.

In fact, there is no research of any kind that shows injected Aluminum is more than 50% excreted within 24 hours.

[TanyaS]

Originally Posted by Science Mom

Vaccines administer a bolus that is initially higher than ingested aluminum but most is excreted within 24 hours and continues to be excreted.

Originally Posted by insider

References, please?

:

I am very interested in reading info on aluminum in vaccines. It's an area I don't know much about. :