Please help me convince a friend not to circ!!!

[liliaceae]

My friend's wife is about 16 weeks pregnant, so they obviously don't know the sex yet, but I've been discussing circumcision with him. He wants to circ and has given the following reasons (along with links to research):

--Uncirc'd penises have a higher rate of infection than circ'd:
http://www.circs.org/library/fergusson/index.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=2383029
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3946358

--Circ provides better prevention of HIV infections:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/.../en/index.html

--Circ reduces the risk of balanitis and penile cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=8380060
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...full/105/3/e36

And basically he doesn't see any reason NOT to circ. He says he is circ'd and he's perfectly happy, so why not?

It's been a while since I researched circ, and leaving my son intact was a very easy decision for me, so I don't know by heart all the arguments against circ. I'm going to look through these links and start formulating a response, but I would love some help from you knowledgeable mamas and papas!!!

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Reasons to leave your son intact:

- The owner of the penis should be the one to decide what to do with it.

-The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

- The movable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

- The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

- An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto it shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

- The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or “glans” of the penis for the life of its owner. The glans or the head of the penis was never meant to be a external organ it should be inside the foreskin to protect it and keep it sensitive.

-80-85% of the world’s male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America). Circumcision does NOT prevent AIDS wearing a condom does.

-Male circumcision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

- When people from non circumcising countries hear that we in the USA still do it they are usually shocked, and often don't believe it to be true.

- Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, you just wash it like a finger, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child. The age it becomes retractable varies greatly normal range is childhood to adulthood.

- The foreskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.

- When the foreskin is removed 30-50% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Because 30-50% of the total penile skin is removed during a RIC depending on the Dr. and the type of circumcision that is done.

-The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 56% today.

-Circumcisions was originally introduced in the country in the late 1800s to prevent masturbation. It has since been touted as the cure for all sorts of ailments - all of which have been scientifically disprovable. Including but not limited to it being a cure for baldness, mental illness, cancer etc. Etc.

The History of Circumcision
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...tpage&Itemid=1

Warning disturbing pictures "The medicalization of circumcision"
http://www.icgi.org/medicalization_o...ion.htm#Page_1

A Short History of Circumcision in the U.S.A (this one is really scary when you read it)
http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/shorthis.htm

The Ritual of Circumcision
http://www.noharmm.org/paige.htm

-Cutting off the foreskin cuts off the most sensitive, erotic, pleasurable part of a man’s body. The foreskin plays a very important role in sex. Men who were circumcised later in life compare circed sex/intact sex to someone who is color blind they can see just fine but the full "color" is missing.

-Circumcision is almost NEVER medically necessary. The only true medical reasons for circ are, frostbite, gangrene and cancer (all of those would be extremely rare) The incidence for necessary medical circumcisions is less that 0.05%. Circumcision for phimosis should only be done as a last resort. After trying stretching, steroid cream and a dorsel slit.

-No medical organization anywhere recommends routine infant circ.
Here is a list of statements from several countries including the USA and Canada.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

- Circumcision is EXTREMELY painful, even if anesthetic is administered. Studies have proved that babies feel pain even more acutely than an adult would. It is a very great breech of trust for a baby to be taken from his parents and cut. It is very violating. Long after any anesthesia that might(most only get a sugar dipped rag or paci to suck on) have been used wears off there is still a raw open wound sitting in urine and feces with no pain relief.

-The intact penis, if left alone, has no greater risk for UTI's, STD's, Penile Cancer, HIV, causing Cervical Cancer in women.

UTI myth http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php

In fact, UTI's are so rare in any case that, using Wiswell's data, 50 to 100 healthy boys would have to be circumcised in order to prevent a UTI from developing in only one patient. (Using more recent data from a better-controlled study, the number of unnecessary operations needed to prevent one hospital admission for UTI would jump to 195.

FORESKINS: Seek Elsewhere for Infants' Urinary Tract Infections
http://www.cirp.org/news/1997.12.22_PhysiciansWeekly/


UTI Neonatal circumcision revisited
http://www.cps.ca/english/statements...ION%20OF%20UTI

-The incidence of Geniturinary abnormalities in circumcised and uncircumcised presenting with an initial urinary tract infection by 6 months of age
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/mueller/

- Girls have a much greater risk of UTIs, yet we don't cut off parts of their genitals to prevent them.

Cancer Society:http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp

In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.8
Boczko et al . found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst's false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.9
In "Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy," Edward Wallerstein writes14: "If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to non-circumcising ones. No such difference is found."

Preston established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time,6 while Leitch did the same in Australia.

Circumcision and AIDS/HIV
http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/ http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003362.html
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html

Comparison of North America to other non-circ countries HIV status
http://www.avert.org/america.htm
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
- The times the intact penis has trouble are when it is forcefully retracted before it is ready. The penis should only be retracted by its owner, when he’s ready. It is normal to not be retractable until after puberty. It is not a problem.

- Circumcision is SURGERY and as such poses significant risks of infection to the wound.
Possible complications include but are not limited to:

• Infections;
• Botched circumcisions that have to be redone;
• To tight circumcisions that cause extreme pain with erection;
• Hair on the shaft;
• Loss of sensation in the glans (head), it becomes keratinized (hardened) without the foreskin; (this one always happens)
• Amputation of the part or all of the penis;
• Ruptured stomach, bladder, and or intestines from crying so hard;
• Skin bridges(very common)
• Adhesions(very common)
• Scaring on the penis shaft(very common)
• Meatal Stenosis http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/persad/ around 10-15% of circs result in this complication if not more.
• DEATH (I have read that as many as 5 infants die every year from circ complications)

and much much more.
It is estemated that between 10-15% of all males will have at least 1 or more of the complications listed above. But none of these side effects are present when leaving a boy intact.

Links of pictures Warning graphic pictures
http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched1sb.html
http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm

- There are NO medical benefits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such more insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

- Circumcision is big business in the US. Several billions of dollars every year. Doctors are very invested in keeping the circumcision myths alive.

- A single doctor can make $20,000 a year doing circumcisions.

- A little known fact is that foreskins are then resold to the highest bidder. They are used in cosmetics, skin growth for grafting, cancer treatments and much more. The after life of foreskins is also a multi billion dollar a year industry. Parents are not told about this. There is no informed consent. Certainly the foreskins owner doesn’t have a say in the matter.

- “Every boy born in the US has a $300 coupon attached to his foreskin. All you have to do is cut it off to redeem.”

- Circumcision should only be performed on consenting adults who know all that is entailed.

-What if your son wants his foreskin?

- A lot of men are very angry when they find out the truth and feel very violated. (like my husband.)

- How would you feel if someone cut off your clitoris and labia without asking you? They do it in Africa all the time. We are horrified when little girls are mutilated. Why not when little boys? FGM type one, the most common form of female circumcision, only removes the covering of the clitoris and some of the labia. Those parts directly corrilate to the foreskin on a male penis.

- It causes immense trauma & physical pain to a brand new baby who just had to undergo birth. Often times a baby will suddenly cease crying and so the Doctors say it doesn't hurt them. It does - they are in shock.

- Smegma isn’t bad or gross. It is the Greek word for soap. Women have it too. It helps keep everything clean and healthy. No intact boy should be forcefully retracted just to clean it out. It’s supposed to be there!

- When they separate the foreskin from the glans it is similar to ripping off your fingernails. Than they crush the foreskin and cut it off. They also stimulate an erection so they “know where to cut.” A boys first sexual experience is one of great pain and trauma.

Common myths you may hear from others and even Dr's:

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php
Why men may insist on circumcision article

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Side by side comparison of MGM & FGM
http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html






Some good links in that.

[Papai]

Originally Posted by liliaceae

My friend's wife is about 16 weeks pregnant, so they obviously don't know the sex yet, but I've been discussing circumcision with him. He wants to circ and has given the following reasons (along with links to research):

--Uncirc'd penises have a higher rate of infection than circ'd:
http://www.circs.org/library/fergusson/index.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=2383029
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3946358

Really? Here's the list of complications that can come as a result of circ:

-Cancer in the circumcision scars
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3944860

-Penile Inflammation
http://cpj.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/46/4/329

-Meatal stenosis, yay!
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic2356.htm

-Trapped penis
http://www.drgreene.com/21_1125.html

-Urine retention
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/eason/

--Circ provides better prevention of HIV infections:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/.../en/index.html

That is patently false. Condoms, not circumcision, provide the best form of HIV prevention. Even the WHO and the UN stress this. A circumcised man who has unprotected sex thinking his circumcision makes him immune, will soon learn otherwise. Just ask all the circumcised HIV-positive men in Ghana, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Kenya......oh, and the US.

Check out this link on a study done on circumcision and HIV on men in the US:
- http://www.reuters.com/article/healt...45545120071204

--Circ reduces the risk of balanitis and penile cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=8380060
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...full/105/3/e36

Whoops, it turns out the circumcision scars can be quite the shelter for cancer of the penis:
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3944860

[fruitful womb]

WOW MCatLvrMom2A&X!!!

I don't have much to add but I'd like to offer my support. Good luck!

Let her digest this information and don't ask her permission to offer this information or she can say no and that'll be the end of that!

So, a little at a time. Kindly refute any myths she brings to your attention.

When all is said and she STILL wants to circ. don't get angry just yet. Say, "This is major genital surgery one in which an internal organ is permanently exposed thus creating a permanent erect looking penis and this kind of surgery shouldn't be taken lightly. (an intact male will bare his glans during the state of arousal.) There are anesthetics to consider: give her all that information including the harmful side effects as well as how ineffective they are. There is more than one method of performing a circ.: Show and explain the different types of circumcisions ie: plastibell, mogan, gomco, freestyle, and show her the videos of each) remember to include the information that a circumciser needs an erect penis in order to guessimate their cut, He has to simulate the penis to an erection. Except the mogan which is a blind cut and notorious for amputating little of all of the glans. She isn't likely to consider it after being fully informed. IF she says dh is the one with the penis, refute that. She is the one with the intact genitals. And she needs to stand up to protect her baby.

Thank you for trying to save a child from circumcision.

There is something else you might like to know about our current justice system...

The current laws protecting girls from circumcision make no exemption to cultural, cosmetic, hygienic, religion, or medically unnecessary reasons. She also must wait to the age of 18 before undergoing the operation herself. The 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution states that, “…everyone has the same protection under law and shall not be deprived of that equal protection.” It is clear that fully protecting girls from any form of genital cutting but not boys is unconstitutional. Intact genitals are the birth right of both genders, not just females. If a man decides on his own that he wants to undergo circumcision after being informed, then he is entitled to make that decision. There is a danger if boys are not allowed the same protection lawmakers and politicians may find the laws protecting girls from circumcision unconstitutional and allow parents to liberally circumcise their girls for any reason as well.

But this information is for you to keep until the mama is fiercely protecting her newborn against circ.

Give her the intact care guide too!
This would be a good way to start off. Give this to her first assuming she isn't going to and if she says, "we're going to circumcise", your dialog has just begun.

IF the sono says girl, don't let that stop you b/c sonos can be wrong. She could still be carrying a boy.

I hope this helps.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Originally Posted by fruitful womb

WOW MCatLvrMom2A&X!!!

is that a good or a bad

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X

is that a good or a bad

Oh no! I meant that in a good way.

You ROCK girl!!!

[fruitful womb]

Papi and I cross posted, yes it took me 20min to compose my post. Just wanted to say,Papi, your rebuttal is incredible!

[liliaceae]

Thank you all so much for the great info! I'm still working on my response to his concerns, I want to be as convincing as possible. If anyone else has anything I can add (especially scientific studies and the like) please let me know!!

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Sensitivity study http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...X.2006.06685.x

Pamphlets and printouts Colorado: http://www.coloradonocirc.org/pamphlets.php

Pictures of circ damage: http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm

Statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/

Statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/

Statistics: http://www.circs.org/reviews/rates/usa.html

2005 Stats: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/3/prweb217505.htm

Statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/bollinger2003/

Statistics world wide: http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/majority.htm

Statements around the world: http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

MGM vs. FGM: http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html

MGM vs. FGM: http://www.circumstitions.com/AAP.html

MGM vs. FGM http://www.boystoo.com/fgm&mgm.htm

MGM vs FGM http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html

MGM vs FGM http://www.icgi.org/hgm_classification.htm

MGM FGM article http://www.compleatmother.com/articl...umcision.shtml

MGM FGM http://www.noharmm.org/comparison.htm

MGM FGM article http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/fourth/zavales4.html

FGM http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/third/hanny3.html

List of myths: http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php

HIV circ myths: http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html

HIV circ: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html

Hiv http://www.nocirc.org/publish/11-HIV.pdf

HIV http://www.africa-interactive.net/index.php?PageID=4620

There are a few links you can go through and get more information. HTH