Bowling for Columbine - Page 2

[CeraMae]

nak

I'm so glad to have found this thread, as I wanted to start one after watching BFC! I also wasn't able to see in theaters.

I loved his "history of US" segment as well as his main point to d QUIT LIVING IN FEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!! I could not agree more!

[TranscendentalMom]

Oh my God, I saw this last night & I can't stop thinking about it. I think all Americans should have to see this movie. I really liked the theory about Americans being in fear...I'm seeing that everywhere now. I think its the competitive nature of our society...it creates a feeling that everyone is out for themselves.

I think the thing that struck me the most was when they talked about the mother of the 6 year old who murdered a little girl in school and how she was working 70 plus hrs a week to earn welfare and was still evicted from her house. It made me want to choke all the Republicans who think that programs like that are effective. I can't STAND how people like Rush Limbaugh talk about *handouts* as if these people are sipping cocktails at home while we are out working for them. How can people not feel a responsibility to help others less fortunate? And this disaster really showed how we have no choice but to do so. No one is an island and if we just leave our neighbors to struggle on their own, it comes back and haunts us. Of course, as we learned fromt he movie, our solution to this is more locks on our doors.

I also loved how he revealed what idiots people were...he was so good about showing people the obvious loopholes in their thinking. Such as that pyscho guy that went on & on about the right to bear arms and he said, "So should we have the right to make nuclear weapons?" and he said, "oh no, that needs to be regulated, there are some real nuts out there."

And man, did Charlton Heston come off bad or what???

[PumpkinSeeds]

I was quite surprised to see that Marilyn Manson was one of the most articulate and insightful guests on the movie.

WOw, really, talk about not judging a book by the cover.

[SpiralWoman]

I haven't seen it bu my dh and I were talking about it the other day. He pissed me off! He mentioned that it was coming out on video soon and really wanted to see it. I told him some of the things I had heard and he sounded like a sheeple, "I love Michael Moore, I don't believe that stuff..." I sent him your link Mursing Mother, let's see what he says to that. I will watch it and like I do with everything else, research and find my own truth.

I hope this is part of your research

www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

there is his column then to the right there is a list of sources

[Potty Diva]

We're watching it right now.

I went to the link provided by NM. Spinsanity though is known for taking the ball and running with it( in other words exaggerating). They found ONE error in Al Frankens book and just tore it to shreads. They are such extremists.

So far this documentary is fantastic, and I love Marilyn Manson. he is so dang intelligent. I actually started liking him after he appeared on Bill Maher's "Politicallly Incorrect" Another great show

[bebe luna]

I too was very moved by BFC. I found it to be an extremly important movie!
On the topic of Americans and fear, there is a wonderful book called "Media Virus" by Douglas Rushkoff, that really goes into this subject!
I am a big fan of M. Moore. I just loved "Stupid White Men". I love his humorous, honest rants and his drive to expose the truth of situations.

[Kanga Mom]

The main reason Charleton Heston comes off looking so bad in Michael Moore's fictional film is because Moore chose to edit his remarks to make him look bad. Moore edited the speech to skip conciliatory remarks and make the remaining ones sound harsh. He put remarks given in a speech eight months later in a different time to a different audience as though they were part of the Columbine speech.
There was no NRA 'show' in Denver. All that happened in Denver was an official meeting of voting members, which was required by NY nonprofit corporation law and had been planned months in advance. Moore cut these words out of Heston's speech: "As you know, we've cancelled the festivities, the fellowship we normally enjoy at our annual gatherings.".

He edited these remarks, too: "So, we have the same right as all other citizens to be here. To help shoulder the grief and share our sorrow and to offer our respectful, reassured voice to the national discourse that has erupted around this tragedy," And: "NRA members are, above all, Americans. That means that whatever our differences, we are respectful of one another and we stand united, especially in adversity"
AND: "shocked and horrified as every other soul in America mourning for the people of Littleton."?

You can read for yourself a comparison of what Heston actually said and what Moore edited him to say:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html

He keeps implying that HEston deliberately showed up in Flint Michigan immediately after the shooting to sort of rub people's faces in something. The fact is that HEston was again attending a previously scheduled event, this time a 'get out the vote' rally. And guess who else was in Flint at the same time? Moore's candidate, Ralph Nader. It was _election_ time, that's all. Neither HEston's nor Nader's presence had _anything_ to do with the recent school shooting.

He edited an anti-Dukakis commercial, showing you a version he created, one that the Bush/Quayle compaign never made, never aired, and didn’t have anything to do with.


This letter was in the Rocky Mountain NEws:
Recently, a co-worker asked me if I had seen the movie Bowling for Columbine yet, I told her absolutely not! My answer surprised her, given the fact my son, Matthew, was one of the 13 murdered during the deadliest school shooting in our country's history. I explained to her that prior to the public release of the movie the families of the injured and dead were invited by Michael Moore to attend a preview screening. How thoughtful.

Our family and others considered attending because we were genuinely interested in his message to the public regarding gun control and school violence.

However, once we discovered he was going to charge us admission we refrained from doing so.

It's laughable that Moore attempts to portray himself as an anti-establishment liberal who is the voice of the common folk, when in fact he is no better than the greedy capitalists he shuns. Maybe now that he has made millions of dollars off the blood of our children he could toss a DVD or two our way to view.


Ann M. Kechter Evergreen
-------------------

I’ve looked at Moore's rebuttal site- pretty weak, IMO. And Hardy answers his evasions and points out his dishonesty further here: http://www.hardylaw.net/MoorereplyHeston.html

You can talk about Hardy’s ‘agenda,’ but regardless of how he feels about guns, he's clearly exposing a liar. The supporting evidence is clearly there for anybody to blinded by their own preferences to see it- Michael Moore is a liar and he falsified his so called documentary and mislead viewers. Read the transcripts of the HEston segments and compare them to what HEston actually said for yourself, and ask yourself, honestly, if this is really a documentary. Is that any way to 'report?'

Kanga

[CeraMae]

Yeah, I've been to this guy's website and I find it funny that the only things out of the whole movie he attacks are the commercial and the NRA thing. It just says to me that there isn't much to attack.

As for Heston's speech, Moore has never tried to hide the fact that he edited Heston's speeches. He admits to it, pointing out how his suit kept changing and things like that. Sure, the NRA had already scheduled an appearance... that doesn't make it any less distasteful for them to come out here and be so "In Your Face" about their politics immediately after Columbine.

I live here. I know what went on and even though Heston added a few lines about his grievences toward the family, who wouldn't???? It's called courtesy. It doesn't make it sincere, heartfelt, or bring any more good taste to the situation. If manson had shown up for a pre-scheduled event, considering everyone's feelings toward him at the time, would it really have changed anything if he threw in that he was "shocked and horrified as every other soul in America mourning for the people of Littleton."?. Maybe actions speak louder than words...

I'm not trying to get into a debate here, but I think that the fact he edited speeches does not make his point any less valid. I don't see how that makes him a liar or a falsifier.

[Kanga Mom]

Originally posted by CeraMae
Yeah, I've been to this guy's website and I find it funny that the only things out of the whole movie he attacks are the commercial and the NRA thing. It just says to me that there isn't much to attack.:::

First of all, I think those are pretty big things. This is supposed to be a documentary, after all.

I don't think you've read the whole thing, because those are not the only issues he brings up.
Off hand, Moore lies about what's on a sign in front of an airplane-He says something about 'this sign celebrates killed Viet Namese people on Christmas Day." That isn't even close to what it says. Funny how he didn't actually show you the sign to read yourself, isn't it?
He lies about buying bullets in a Walmart in Canada
He was misleading about getting a gun for a bank account and how that worked
He lies about several of his figures
He lies or misleads about the KKK thing
He probably staged the whole Million Moms March quote where he supposed is filming a march in Michigan in late October, and everybody's in shorts and green trees are in teh background-
He probably staged a couple other scenes he says are 'real,'

And this is still the NRA thing, but I don't think we should get to lie about them just because you don't like them- Heston wasn't in Flint MIchigan 'right after' that school shooting- it was EIGHT months later, during a get out the vote rally.

YOu must not have clicked on all the links- because there was a _lot_ more than just the NRA and the commercial, which I think are pretty big deals, like lying in a so-called documentary always should be.

::As for Heston's speech, Moore has never tried to hide the fact that he edited Heston's speeches. He admits to it, pointing out how his suit kept changing and things like that. Sure, the NRA had already scheduled an appearance... that doesn't make it any less distasteful for them to come out here and be so "In Your Face" about their politics immediately after Columbine. ::

Yes, he did try to hide it. He created an entirely new speech that HEston _never_ delivered anywhere. He even lies about it on his rebuttal page.
The NRA had scheduled their required by law meeting of the members a long time beforehand. They canceled every event by the one they had to have, by law. How is that 'in your face?"
I also lived in Colorado at the time, my nephew attended the high school where the Columbine kids went until thier school was redone. The NRA didn't seek out the media attention- the media went after them.


: live here. I know what went on and even though Heston added a few lines about his grievences toward the family, who wouldn't???? It's called courtesy. It doesn't make it sincere, heartfelt, or bring any more good taste to the situation. If manson had shown up for a pre-scheduled event, considering everyone's feelings toward him at the time, would it really have changed anything if he threw in that he was "shocked and horrified as every other soul in America mourning for the people of Littleton."?. Maybe actions speak louder than words... ::

Yeah, and falsfying speeches, misrepresenting what people actually said and the context in which they said it is a pretty darn big action.


::'m not trying to get into a debate here, but I think that the fact he edited speeches does not make his point any less valid. I don't see how that makes him a liar or a falsifier.

:::

Wow. I'm kind of stunned. That's pretty scary. REally. I find it frightening that people don't think there's a problem with that.

LEt's see. So I can take what you actually said above, and edit it, to say, "I'm trying to get into a debate. He edited speeches. That makes him a liar and a falsifier."

And that's okay? Would that be honest? Woudl that be a sign of my integrity if I did that? All those words are your words. You actually said them. I didn't add a single word, I just left a whole bunch out. Hey, and I should go find some other post you've made in a different discussion and combine something you said in that other post with this one to create an entirely new post, and I can call it yours? Surely you see that this is a problem? If I did this and told people you said it, it would make me a liar and a falsifier, just like it does Michael Moore.

Kanga

[CeraMae]

I stand corrected. This man obviously knows how to read signs that aren't shown on the tape and the existence of at leat 2 "probably" staged scenes.

[IslandMamma]

Kanga mom, I am having a really hard time reading your responses here (and on other threads, too.) I'm STUNNED that you find Heston's presence in Littleton, WITH the NRA, as even marginally acceptable. (Although I shouldn't be considering that you find global warming to be a farce, too.....)

There were children gunned down in cold blood, and the very organization that makes it possible to obtain a gun so easily in this country shows up and offers their condolences? Oh, Please. How freakin' heartfelt.

That'd be like if your child is accidentally poisoned, and you receive a letter of condolence from the company and a coupon for a discount on their next product...

And as far as Michael Moore editing and being selective in what he chooses to view, well, there is NOTHING unusual about that-- all you need to do is watch CNN or FOX "news" and you'll find more spin and editing in 10 minutes than was in all of BFC.

[SpiralWoman]

ah, more anti-Mooreism in this thread.

ok, let's all follow along... Editing is a normal part of film-making. Film-making (esp. documentary) is all about POV. That's point-of-view, as in, the film-makers. The film-maker? You know, the person who's views are being presented?? So, yes, you might not agree with or enjoy Michael Moore's POV. Super.

But to say that it is somehow dishonest? No, sorry. Totally not dishonest. Totally ok to include points that present your POV. Totally ok to edit your own f'n movie.

Haters, keep on hating.

[Wendydagny]

Originally posted by CeraMae
I stand corrected. This man obviously knows how to read signs that aren't shown on the tape and the existence of at leat 2 "probably" staged scenes.

I've seen the sign on the airplane. It's at the Air Force Academy, and it does not say anything even close to what MM says it does.

[Kanga Mom]

"Fact: At Denver, the NRA canceled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' meeting; that could not be cancelled because corporate law required that it be held. [No way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members.]"

These people had already scheduled their members' meeting, bought their tickets, paid for their reservations, blocked out the time in their schedules, taken the time off from work, reserved the location- this is an event that was planned probably a year in advance. I think it's unreasonable to expect them to change the location at the last minute. It's an impossible expectation. There was no time to notify all members not to come, no time to plan another location, no way for everybody to cancel their flights without losing the cost of their plane tickets. I think it was foolish of the Mayor and the media to make a big deal about it.

Fact: Bowling shows footage of a B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy. Moore claims that the plaque under it "proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972."

The plaque, which anybody can read if they go to the AFA, actually reads that "Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas eve 1972."

Fact- It is _not_ acceptable to edit a documentary to the point that you create a speech that was never delivered, place it in the wrong context, and otherwise misrepresent what was said. That _is_ dishonesty.

I am baffled that it's somehow not hateful to misrepresent the facts, but it _is_ hateful to point out where Michael Moore deviated from the truth. Deviating from the truth is called lying. I don't know why anybody would want to defend it.

If this sort of editing is okay, then I must point out again that by the same standard, I should be able to edit away whatever anybody else says. For example, Cera Mae said:

"I'm not trying to get into a debate here, but I think that the fact he edited speeches does not make his point any less valid. I don't see how that makes him a liar or a falsifier. "

I should be able to take what she actually said above, and edit it, and quote Cera Mae as saying, "I'm trying to get into a debate. He edited speeches. That makes him a liar and a falsifier."

By the standards I have seen here, that should be okay with y'all. You would consider that simply editing. It wouldn't be dishonest, and nobody would have a problem with it.

All those words are Cera Mae's words. She actually said them. I didn't add a single word, I just left a whole bunch out, so it's okay, because after all, it's all about my Point of View, so what she actually said doesn't matter. I'm editing, so I can create whatever I want.

I could also go find some other post she's made in a totally different discussion and combine that other post with this one to create an entirely new post, and then I can call it hers. It's only editing, after all, and from what I'm reading here, there's nothing wrong with that, and it would be hateful of anybody to point out that this would be a dishonest representation of what Cera Mae actually said.

I'm serious, I cannot see a single difference between what Michael Moore did and my example above. Can somebody explain to me why this would be different?

To me it's dishonesty and lack of integrity. I wouldn't treat another person's words, even somebody I disagreed with, which such disregard for the truth. I'm trying to understand what kind of thinking makes it okay.

Kanga

[CeraMae]

I'm serious, I cannot see a single difference between what Michael Moore did and my example above. Can somebody explain to me why this would be different?

I'm surprised that you can't see a difference between completely misquoting someone and editing. Editing means(according to the American Heritage Dictionary), "to put together the component parts of (a film, for example) by cutting, combining and splicing." It would be different because you did not "edit" what I said, you *misquoted*. Misquote means, "to quote incorrectly." You switched my words around to say something entirely different, rather than taking a long drawn-out speech of mine and consolidating it by emphasizing key points and using ... to show that you had left something out.
Michael Moore did not take individual words out of heston's speech and switch them around to make him say "I like ice cream." He *consolidated* a 20 minute speech about why Heston was asked not to come and came anyway because it was his right as an american by *highlighting* a few sentences which summarized his entire speech. I have looked at the speech side-by-side that you provided a link to and I encourage everyone else to do so. If moore had room in his film to include the entire speech it would not have sounded any better.
In fact, Heston "deviated from the truth" in his own speech, while paraphrasing the Mayor's request that he cancel the NRA convention.

I have a message from the mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver. He sent me this and said don't come here, we don't want you here.

Hmmm...I wonder if Webb really sent him a memo that said,"Hey Charlie. Don't come here, we don't want you here. signed Mayor Webb" According to the Denver Post "In a nice way he (Webb) asked the National Rifle Association to cancel their Annual Meeting now scheduled for Denver next week. He asked in his statement that the NRA do this out of respect for the pain and suffering felt by his people in the Denver-Metro community. They responded that they would not cancel but instead they would limit their meeting to one day. Reports indicate that the Denver Business Community have joined Mayor Webb's request. Still, the NRA seems determined to go to Denver."

"Fact: At Denver, the NRA canceled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' meeting; that could not be cancelled because corporate law required that it be held. [No way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members.]"

4 million members were not coming to Colorado. In Heston's own words, "This decision has perplexed a few and inconvenienced thousands. As your president, I apologize for that."
There was "no way to change location"? Where there is a will there is a way. They somehow managed to notify everyone coming that they wouldn't hold their festivities, yet they had no way of notifying them of a change of location? I find that hard to believe. Another event was pre-planned and had pre-sold tickets and cancelled at the last minute. Marilyn Manson. And I think that is commendable considering that the boys of Columbine didn't use his CD to stab anyone. Manson didn't pretend like it was impossible for people to find out about the cancelled show. I mean, he didn't even know the names and addresses of ticketholders in the first place, yet somehow on the day of the concert no one was wasting away in line, starving and perplexed, over a show that wasn't going to happen.
You can do amazing things with media, like let 4,000,000 people know that a bunch of kids got killed and out of respect a gun convention would be changed. Was corporate law going to send Charlton Heston and company to "Corporate Prison" if he had changed the date and/or location of his festivities? Obviously many people were going to be inconvenienced in the first place by the cancellation of festivities. In his own words, "Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home." That doesnt sound like a bunch of (refundable) hotel rooms to me....

Fact: Bowling shows footage of a B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy. Moore claims that the plaque under it "proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972."
The plaque, which anybody can read if they go to the AFA, actually reads that "Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas eve 1972."

If you want to throw everyone who uses a thesaurus into Ethics Jail for lying, falsifying, dishonesty, and lack of integrity... Please include everyone who has ever paraphrased something wrongly. Like a few days ago when you said, "Off hand, Moore lies about what's on a sign in front of an airplane-He says something about 'this sign celebrates killed Viet Namese people on Christmas Day.' That isn't even close to what it says. Funny how he didn't actually show you the sign to read yourself, isn't it?"
:LOL
That is funny!! What's funny is that it comes VERY close to it. Linebacker II is not a football reference, it was the biggest aerial blitz of the Vietnam War. You can read all about it here:
http://members.aol.com/dpoole1272/home/day1.htm
In short, Operation LINEBACKER II began on December 18, 1972, 3,000 sorties, 11 days, and 40,000 tons of bombs penetrated the most concentrated air defense of the war. I'm no doctor, but last I heard, dropping bombs on people tends to kill them. And I haven't heard of a bomb yet that can tell the difference between men, women, and children.

What's next?? Something about how the Holocost didn't happen???

If there was something wrong with the way Moore portrayed the NRA, they would have sued him by now for slander.

[IslandMamma]

Great post, CeraMae. ITA.

You said it all very eloquently.

[Moss's Mommy]

I don't understand why some people become so defensive about this movie. We have a HUGE problem here with gun violence. The correlations b/w American Imperialism, overworked and underpaid parents, and meanwhile, the rich getting richer etc... is a known fact.... The killing has got to stop period. We need to learn that the moves we make as a nation rub off on the children. Our right to bear Armaments is running out of time..... As a nation, and as individuals. The NRA is a terrorrist oraganization.

[Cynthia Mosher]

While your discussions of right or wrong and honest or dishonest are fine, the personal pointing is getting a bit out of hand. If you have something to address with another member please take it to PM. Don't use each other as examples to make your points.

Let's bring this thread back on track or it will have to be closed.

[Wendydagny]

That is funny!! What's funny is that it comes VERY close to it. Linebacker II is not a football reference, it was the biggest aerial blitz of the Vietnam War. You can read all about it here:
http://members.aol.com/dpoole1272/home/day1.htm
In short, Operation LINEBACKER II began on December 18, 1972, 3,000 sorties, 11 days, and 40,000 tons of bombs penetrated the most concentrated air defense of the war. I'm no doctor, but last I heard, dropping bombs on people tends to kill them. And I haven't heard of a bomb yet that can tell the difference between men, women, and children.

Actually what I find funny is how different the quote actually appears when you read the entire plaque, which states:

B-52D Stratofortress. 'Diamond Lil.' Dedicated to the men and women of the Strategic Air Command who flew and maintained the B-52D throughout its 26-year history in the command. Aircraft 55-083, with over 15,000 flying hours, is one of two B-52Ds credited with a confirmed MIG kill during the Vietnam Conflict Flying out of U-Tapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southern Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas Eve, 1972.

It commemorates the airmen who served flying that specific airplane during it's 26 years, not a battle.

[Wendydagny]

Oh and here's a good article on the problems with BFC from a less shrill and generally more respected source than Spinsanity:

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel040403.asp