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post #41 of 118
Well, apparently, the parents of the small child *weren't* ok with the child making his own "choice" to get clipped by the shopping cart, as evidenced by the way they responded to the older gentleman who accidentally hit their child.

It's one thing to allow your child to do something, knowing you will accept the consequences (ie...my 18month old, despite me warning her that it will hurt if she keeps trying to drop herself off the top of the couch, does so, and, as I suspected, hurts herself (not seriously - I'm not letting her juggle swords or anything). I am willing to accept that, console her, and don't get mad at her or the couch for her, and, fine, lesson learned.). But, if I did that at a friend's house - let her climb the couch, climb over, and drop down - , and then got mad at my friend for having a couch, not having the couch against a wall, etc. that would be out of line.

Parents have to expect that if they let their child run around in a potentially injurious setting that their child could, indeed, be injured. If they're NOT okay with that, then they need to stop the actions before it leads to injury. Not get angry at the older gentleman who accidentally hit their child.
post #42 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
Parents have to expect that if they let their child run around in a potentially injurious setting that their child could, indeed, be injured. If they're NOT okay with that, then they need to stop the actions before it leads to injury. Not get angry at the older gentleman who accidentally hit their child.
I agree. And who knows, maybe these parents usually feel this way but something else was up? Or maybe they don't and their response was par for the course. All I was getting at is the OP's DH's involvement did nothing to help anyone and only frustrated the situation. I was not defending the parents reaction but writing that when I see stuff like that if I'm going to insert myself into the situation it's going to be in a way that helps. It's not going to be just to vent my frustration because that's just done to make myself feel better without effecting any change. What was furthered? With a rude interjection do you really think the parents are going to be more likely to re-think their response to the accident or are they more likely to tell the OP's DH to @#!4 off?
post #43 of 118
We all control our children to some degree. You make choices that affect them that are not under their control - therefore, you are in control. It's just semantics.

That said, yes, it was rude of your dh to make that comment, but it seems like it was made in the context of trying to help out the elderly man who hit the kids by accident.

One time dh and I were in a bbq restaurant (very casual place, but we happened to not have our kids with us). There was a toy/play area right behind our table, and about 3 kids were sitting there very nicely playing with toys. This guy gets up to leave, and the kids are blocking his pathway, even though they are right next to the toys. The man made a very rude comment to the children (I forget exactly what he said, but something along the lines of "Are you just going to sit there or get out my way?"). Anyhow, my dh looked up at him and said "You don't need to talk to them like that, you can just go around them." It came out rather rude, and I immediately tensed waiting for the fight to break out. Instead the guy just starting yelling in general about people not supervising their kids. My dh is not the confontrational type, at all. I was shocked he said anything.

Sometimes these things just happen. I'm glad it didn't escalate in your case. And maybe they will think twice about it next time.
post #44 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicole lisa View Post
I agree. And who knows, maybe these parents usually feel this way but something else was up? Or maybe they don't and their response was par for the course. All I was getting at is the OP's DH's involvement did nothing to help anyone and only frustrated the situation. I was not defending the parents reaction but writing that when I see stuff like that if I'm going to insert myself into the situation it's going to be in a way that helps. It's not going to be just to vent my frustration because that's just done to make myself feel better without effecting any change. What was furthered? With a rude interjection do you really think the parents are going to be more likely to re-think their response to the accident or are they more likely to tell the OP's DH to @#!4 off?
Well, but then maybe the OP's husband has his own stuff he's dealing with, too. So if we can wrap our compassion around the parents who weren't supervising -- but were still very rude to an elderly gentleman for not doing THEIR job of supervising, I think there should be enough compassion to cover the OP's husband, too.

Actually, I think the dh's comment might've done some good in the long run. Those parents now know that if they try to lash out and blame others when their kids get hurt, someone's likely to call them on their idiocy.

My dh had a similar experience in a store recently, where a dad made a rude comment, because he thought dh was going to bump into his child (the child wasn't watching where he was going). Dh felt rather offended, since he'd made a special effort to avoid the absent-minded child, and didn't bump into him.

Dh didn't say anything back -- but rudeness like this can really set you off, you know? I think if someone present had said something to back up dh, it might've helped to off-set the effect (on dh) of the irrational rudeness of the parent who apparently saw no reason to exhort his child to pay more attention to his surroundings.

I'm not saying he had to "control" his child -- but if your child's wandering around in a crowded place with his mind elsewhere, why would you be stupidly commenting that another shopper "needs to watch where he's going?" Why not just provide your child with the following information: "If you want to hang out in another world, that's cool -- but you might bump into somebody or something in this world, and get hurt. Are you cool with that, son?"
post #45 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinitty View Post
That's really a nice way of putting it, Artgoddess, but, sadly, I doubt that people who are so negligent with their children in the first place would have appreciated your nuanced response or concern.

People seem to either be responsive, sensitive and considerate.... or they just aren't. These folk sound like they just aren't.

It's really disappointing.
They may not be responsive in a positive way. Who knows. But I would not feel right about myself if I wasn't polite in the interaction.
post #46 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
Dad said "F*** you"

And the man was just worried about the boy, but as he left, he rolled his eyes and shook his head.
Classy. I just love enlightened parents like this!
post #47 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerchild View Post
I
When you choose to yell at the person who had an accident because you didn't feel it was a big deal for your child to play in the moving lanes, then to be blunt, then you've just opened yourself up for rudeness. Natural consequences, and all that.
post #48 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
But, what I am getting at, is if your son were going to ride a skateboard down a stairway with a 20 foot drop on the other side, is it NOT o.k for someone to control your son and stop him? Or should that be the choice of a 14 year old boy to make on his own?
My prediction is that because I let my nearly 3 year old try things that other people wouldn't, that by the time he tries to do anything with the realistic chance of serious injury, he will (1) appreciate it fully and (2) have done the work beforehand to minimize that chance -- worked up to it, as all good athletes do.

I cannot imagine myself blaming the man with the shopping cart. I would have been tripping over myself telling the man it was not his fault.

I am frequently telling my son that it is not his fault that he is too short to be seen. He will grow out of it. Until then he needs to take some precautions.
post #49 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicole lisa View Post
Or girl. I was that girl. And I was glad it was my choice to make. I'm glad nobody controlled street greats like Natas Copus or aerial greats like Tony Hawk (who turned pro at 14) from making that choice (over and over again) because without their choices we'd never have the 900, the Stalefish, the Mctwist (the first time I saw Tony Hawk land this live I lost it - so great) etc etc. For Hawk the dozen or so concussions, fractured pelvis and skull, broken bones and endless stitches are worth it 'cause he loves what he does. He did at 7, 9, 12, 14 and on right up to now at a few months away from 40. I don't think just because he wasn't always 40 doesn't mean he shouldn't have been able to make his own choices when it came to his safety. I'm glad his parents didn't either.
But the difference is the number of parties involved. In your example, the kid on the skateboard is only going to affect themself. In the OPs story - the kid affect some innocent 3rd party - the old man.

I think it's fine to let your kids take chances. But those chances should impact other people.
post #50 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessed View Post
But the difference is the number of parties involved. In your example, the kid on the skateboard is only going to affect themself. In the OPs story - the kid affect some innocent 3rd party - the old man.

I think it's fine to let your kids take chances. But those chances should impact other people.
I said that in the same post. The part you quoted was in answer to a question I was asked about skateboarding and whether or not I think an adult should stop my son from doing something dangerous like rail riding with stairs on one side and a huge drop on the other and I said no.
post #51 of 118
"My prediction is that because I let my nearly 3 year old try things that other people wouldn't, that by the time he tries to do anything with the realistic chance of serious injury, he will (1) appreciate it fully and (2) have done the work beforehand to minimize that chance -- worked up to it, as all good athletes do."

I thought brain studies of children and of adolescents had established that, in fact, they are not that great at weighing risks and establishing realistic outcomes since certain parts of the brain are not yet fully developed.
post #52 of 118
What your dh said is one of those things I would LOVE to say, but would never have the guts to!
post #53 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicole lisa View Post
Some passions come with more risk than others - sports is one of them, and so long as other people aren't put at risk then it's a go for me.

DS running around like the children in the OP could or couldn't involve another person getting hurt so I'd have to actually be in the situation and assess it with him to answer anything like that.
But again, the problem is that the parents in this situation, for whatever reason, were NOT being conscientious of their children endangering other people who were just trying to leave the store. I maintain that is the single issue here - that the parents weren't attending their children. Granted, the OP's DH's statement was blunt and not something I'd personally say, but I don't think enough people stand up against rudeness and inconsideration these days, I wish more people would speak out when things like this happen...it's difficult to think off the top of your head sometimes to come up with the right words to say. I think his intent was right on, and I wish more people would be involved with interactions like this. I think this is part of the problem, we're so in the "don't tell me what to do!" frame of mind in our society, that nobody wants to get involved in situations anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Why not just provide your child with the following information: "If you want to hang out in another world, that's cool -- but you might bump into somebody or something in this world, and get hurt. Are you cool with that, son?"
Actually, I have to take issue with this, too, because it could be that absentminded wandering or running around could actually hurt *another* person (trying to avoid the kid, trying to stop their cart from completely running the child over, etc.) so it's not just the child potentially getting hurt, it's others around them having to "watch out" for the child instead of the child being taken to a more appropriate place to burn off their energy. Believe me, I get that it's not always convenient - I've had the 3-1/2-yr-old who just doesn't want to stay by the cart, and doesn't want to ride in it too...I've had the 16-month-old have the ear-piercing screaming fit in the middle of the frozen food section - and I've left a cart full of stuff instead of putting him and other people in peril or extreme discomfort...my golden rule has been and will always be, "My right to be out in public having fun/doing my errands ends where it negatively impacts yours", and that extends to my kids, as well....but in my experience, a majority of people don't think that way anymore, consideration for others seems to be something that is not valued as much in our society (obviously there are still people out there who are considerate, but I've seen more people like the rude, inattentive parents in the OP than considerate ones.)
post #54 of 118
for those of you who are getting hung up on "control" - would it make a difference if her husband had said "how about you parent your babies?" or "how about you get up off you lazy butt and protect your babies" or "how about you keep your babies out of peoples way"
post #55 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Why not just provide your child with the following information: "If you want to hang out in another world, that's cool -- but you might bump into somebody or something in this world, and get hurt. Are you cool with that, son?"
My kid falls down, he gets up and brushes himself off.

My kid runs into his grandmother who just had a hip replacement? He knocks her down and potentially injures her badly or causes her healing hip to get knocked out of joint - an excruciatingly painful thingn.

"are you cool with that" just doesn't cover that.

My kid is one of those kids who is just not very aware of his body's placement in space, and he needs reminders, regularly, to be aware of where he's going. And I have had to reach out, many times, and put a hand on his shoulder to prevent him from running into someone, knocking over a small child or older person, or knocking over store displays.

I don't consider this some kind of non-gentle parenting, even though I choose to physically control his trajectory in space. He doesn't want to hurt someone else, and he is not really capbable, even at 7, of *getting* that a fall that is just no big deal to *him* could be life-changing to the little old woman in the Target parking lot.
post #56 of 118
ITA with your DH.
post #57 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by The4OfUs View Post
Actually, I have to take issue with this, too, because it could be that absentminded wandering or running around could actually hurt *another* person (trying to avoid the kid, trying to stop their cart from completely running the child over, etc.) so it's not just the child potentially getting hurt, it's others around them having to "watch out" for the child instead of the child being taken to a more appropriate place to burn off their energy. Believe me, I get that it's not always convenient - I've had the 3-1/2-yr-old who just doesn't want to stay by the cart, and doesn't want to ride in it too...I've had the 16-month-old have the ear-piercing screaming fit in the middle of the frozen food section - and I've left a cart full of stuff instead of putting him and other people in peril or extreme discomfort...my golden rule has been and will always be, "My right to be out in public having fun/doing my errands ends where it negatively impacts yours", and that extends to my kids, as well....but in my experience, a majority of people don't think that way anymore, consideration for others seems to be something that is not valued as much in our society (obviously there are still people out there who are considerate, but I've seen more people like the rude, inattentive parents in the OP than considerate ones.)
Exactly.

Had those parents in the OP not blamed an innocent old man for the actions of their son, I'm sure that OP's DH wouldn't have said anything. I still think those parents needed a wake up call.

When my kids are screaming, squirrelling, whatever and others are going to be annoyed or bothered or caught up in a situation similiar to the OP, I remove myself. It isn't always convenient, it isn't always easy, but I feel it's my responsibility. That's why I shop early in the morning at the grocery store, there are fewer people and less of a chance I will be put in a situation of this kind. In some instances, like on an airplane, it's not feasible, but I think people expect kids to act up in those situations and deal with it. I don't think the same applys for people trying to get their heavily loaded carts out the door at Costco. Bottom line, these parents were not respecting the rights of others or properly managing their children, and that gives others involved who are being negatively affected the right to speak up. The old man probably had no idea what was even going on, and I applaud OPs DH for speaking up and telling it like it was.

In this situation, I don't think it's about taking risks, it's about respecting the rights of others around you. I agree that children should be allowed to take risks (to a point) because they will be learning experience. I allow my son to do things that I may not want him to because I know that when he has a negative experience, he'll remember it the next time, a time when I may not be there to supervise. However, that right ends when others are involved, for example, if we are alone at a park, I may let him climb backwards up a slide, swing a different way on a swing, etc, but if that same park were busy, I wouldn't let him climb up the slide backwards for fear another child would slide down and they would both get hurt. Furthermore, should that happen due to my lack of supervision, I wouldn't yell at the other child, "why didn't you watch where you were going?", I would tell my child to apologize for using the slide in an innapropriate manner and causing the crash. How will my children ever learn to respect others if they don't see a good example of it from me?
post #58 of 118
This is an interesting post for me, because my youngest two boys are extremely physically active and precocious. I have been dealing with the ramifications of their mobility since they were walking at 8 and 9 months old (they're 4 and 2 now). They each climbed and ran by 10-11 months. The point: my ability to "control" their activity is next to nil -- I have to direct them, know their limits, and let them do things that other people would never let their children do.

That said, they are NEVER allowed to wantonly endanger other people. Once they get to the point where sitting down and waiting isn't cutting it for them, then we try to occupy them in other ways or we leave if necessary (unless there is an appropriate outlet available to them). There is a time and place for everything, and a busy shopping area isn't the place for 2 year olds to run off steam.

While I don't have a problem with the comment made by the OP's Dh under the circumstances, I can't say that I want more people to "speak up". It seems like people are always willing to speak up and put my children (and others) in their "place", or to parent them when they think I'm not. I can't tell you how many times I've been in my own home and my children are climbing on the porch rails or the counters or whatever, and some random stranger (the mailman or the cable guy or whoever) tells them to get down because they'll get hurt. Then *I* get the look that says that I should be "controlling" them. It doesn't happen that much in public or in other people's houses because a) Dh and I take great pains to teach them to respect other people and their property, as well as to secure their own safety b) we try not to push them past their limits and c) we head them off at the pass whenever possible. But, at home and in certain structured areas, I know their physical abilities and limitations (and they do, too, as well as possible at their age), and I have to respect their need to do things that children their age often don't.

The last time that someone said something to me in public, it was an employee at Target who decided to block my way because my 4 year old had crawled onto the bottom rack of my cart while I was loading it at the checkout. I noticed that he was down there as I started to push it, and decided to let him stay until I could get to the side wall opposite the carts (about 10 -20 feet), out of the way of other shoppers. The guy says "Uh, that's not safe. Uh, he could..." "Yes, thank you, I know. We're going to that wall over there..." "Uh, no, that's not safe, uh..." "We're going to the wall, out of everyone's way" "That's not safe, you can't let him do that..." "I know my own son, excuse me, please"... At which point, he finally moved out of the way so that I could cross the dangerous 10 feet and extract my son from the bottom of the cart. In the meantime, I had turned bright red, was extremely embarrassed by my inability to speak and by the fact that he wouldn't allow me through, and so forth. I was trying not to think about all of the children who had been in truly unsafe situations in that very store while I was shopping.

So, I guess, if you *do* decide to speak up, please make certain that someone or something is actually in danger, and that the parents/caregivers are actually ignoring the behavior for an extended period of time (sometimes it takes me 20 seconds to realize that my child is climbing the shoe rack because I was *gasp* looking at the shoes for a second). Sometimes I think that the parents who are trying to be responsible with their kiddos become easy scapegoats for all of the parents who just don't care what their kiddos do -- we're easy because we DO care, and we DO try.
post #59 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by theatermom View Post
So, I guess, if you *do* decide to speak up, please make certain that someone or something is actually in danger, and that the parents/caregivers are actually ignoring the behavior for an extended period of time (sometimes it takes me 20 seconds to realize that my child is climbing the shoe rack because I was *gasp* looking at the shoes for a second). Sometimes I think that the parents who are trying to be responsible with their kiddos become easy scapegoats for all of the parents who just don't care what their kiddos do -- we're easy because we DO care, and we DO try.
I totally agree with this - and also want to recognize that I advocate people being direct, but as polite as possible. If you see a parent parenting a child, even if it takes 20 seconds to notice something going on, that's a WAY different scenario than 3 adults sitting at a table ignoring 2 toddlers running around for several minutes. BIG difference.

From the OP:
Quote:
Within minutes, the boys had finished eating and started running around the table, then around the table and out into the exiting traffic. There were litterally hundreds of people pushing large, full carts of stuff through the isle to leave the store. These two tiny kids kept having near misses, because they were too small to see over the parents head to see the carts, and too small to be seen. The three adults never even said "come here", or "walk", or anything. They just went on eating and talking.

After about seven or so trips out into the traffic
Waaaaaaay different than you seeing your kid on the bottom of your own cart and pushing it, IMO. You see your kid, you evaluate the situation - the only potential damage in the scenario is to your own son if he falls out. I understand not wanting to paint with a wide brush and have people micromanaging strangers' parenting. I think there's a major difference between situations, and the OP situation was definitely one where there was potential for harm not only to the children, but to others as well.
post #60 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by AidynElyMama View Post
Had those parents in the OP not blamed an innocent old man for the actions of their son, I'm sure that OP's DH wouldn't have said anything. I still think those parents needed a wake up call.

When my kids are screaming, squirrelling, whatever and others are going to be annoyed or bothered or caught up in a situation similiar to the OP, I remove myself. It isn't always convenient, it isn't always easy, but I feel it's my responsibility. That's why I shop early in the morning at the grocery store, there are fewer people and less of a chance I will be put in a situation of this kind. In some instances, like on an airplane, it's not feasible, but I think people expect kids to act up in those situations and deal with it. I don't think the same applys for people trying to get their heavily loaded carts out the door at Costco. Bottom line, these parents were not respecting the rights of others or properly managing their children, and that gives others involved who are being negatively affected the right to speak up. The old man probably had no idea what was even going on, and I applaud OPs DH for speaking up and telling it like it was.

In this situation, I don't think it's about taking risks, it's about respecting the rights of others around you. I agree that children should be allowed to take risks (to a point) because they will be learning experience. I allow my son to do things that I may not want him to because I know that when he has a negative experience, he'll remember it the next time, a time when I may not be there to supervise. However, that right ends when others are involved, for example, if we are alone at a park, I may let him climb backwards up a slide, swing a different way on a swing, etc, but if that same park were busy, I wouldn't let him climb up the slide backwards for fear another child would slide down and they would both get hurt. Furthermore, should that happen due to my lack of supervision, I wouldn't yell at the other child, "why didn't you watch where you were going?", I would tell my child to apologize for using the slide in an innapropriate manner and causing the crash. How will my children ever learn to respect others if they don't see a good example of it from me?
ITA. The kids in this situation (and that of the woman in the coffee shop) are not only in danger, but perhaps most importantly, are learning horrible habits of how to act around and how to treat others. Their parents' reaction was truly awful.

In general, I think our society has a terribly intolerance for children, and their need to act like children. However, it is parents like those in the op that give people the fuel/justification to be intolerant of all children who are being heard instead of being seen.
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