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OR, You could control your kids... - Page 4

post #61 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by The4OfUs View Post
I totally agree with this - and also want to recognize that I advocate people being direct, but as polite as possible. If you see a parent parenting a child, even if it takes 20 seconds to notice something going on, that's a WAY different scenario than 3 adults sitting at a table ignoring 2 toddlers running around for several minutes. BIG difference.

From the OP:

Waaaaaaay different than you seeing your kid on the bottom of your own cart and pushing it, IMO. You see your kid, you evaluate the situation - the only potential damage in the scenario is to your own son if he falls out. I understand not wanting to paint with a wide brush and have people micromanaging strangers' parenting. I think there's a major difference between situations, and the OP situation was definitely one where there was potential for harm not only to the children, but to others as well.
Oh, ITA w/you -- I was just reacting to some of the calls for more people to speak up. I'm totally fine with someone saying something when the situation warrants it (as it does in the op and w/the woman in the coffee shop), but I distrust most people's ability to make that call.
post #62 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by theatermom View Post
ITA. The kids in this situation (and that of the woman in the coffee shop) are not only in danger, but perhaps most importantly, are learning horrible habits of how to act around and how to treat others. Their parents' reaction was truly awful.
As was the OP's DH's. If I was the OP I would be asking him to talk with our DS about how reacting that way is not something we want him learning from us. And had DS and I been passing when the whole thing went down I'd be talking to him about how the parents and the Op's Dh were both wrong and we'd be brainstorming ways to handle situations like that without aggressive language and tones. There are so many ways to respectfully handle situations like that if you feel the need to jump in. I really don't see any difference between the parents' FU and the DH's call to control the kids - they were both rude and angry and uncalled for.
post #63 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicole lisa View Post
As was the OP's DH's. If I was the OP I would be asking him to talk with our DS about how reacting that way is not something we want him learning from us. And had DS and I been passing when the whole thing went down I'd be talking to him about how the parents and the Op's Dh were both wrong and we'd be brainstorming ways to handle situations like that without aggressive language and tones. There are so many ways to respectfully handle situations like that if you feel the need to jump in. I really don't see any difference between the parents' FU and the DH's call to control the kids - they were both rude and angry and uncalled for.
I do agree -- we don't always say the right things at the right time, which is one reason I tend not to say anything unless I'm sure that it's actually going to do some good. I can't fault the OP's Dh for speaking up, under the circumstances, but I doubt that it really did anyone any good. These sorts of comments are usually self-indulgent, in that they make the speaker and those around him/her feel better for confronting the person, but they have little practical value.

Hindsight is always better and all that, but the time to speak up was probably *before* the kids actually got hit with the cart, since it was obvious that someone was going to get hurt eventually, and equally obvious that the parents weren't going to do anything to prevent it without some prompting. After the fact, it was probably better to say something directly to the injured party (the older man).
post #64 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by theatermom View Post
While I don't have a problem with the comment made by the OP's Dh under the circumstances, I can't say that I want more people to "speak up". It seems like people are always willing to speak up and put my children (and others) in their "place", or to parent them when they think I'm not. I can't tell you how many times I've been in my own home and my children are climbing on the porch rails or the counters or whatever, and some random stranger (the mailman or the cable guy or whoever) tells them to get down because they'll get hurt. Then *I* get the look that says that I should be "controlling" them. It doesn't happen that much in public or in other people's houses because a) Dh and I take great pains to teach them to respect other people and their property, as well as to secure their own safety b) we try not to push them past their limits and c) we head them off at the pass whenever possible. But, at home and in certain structured areas, I know their physical abilities and limitations (and they do, too, as well as possible at their age), and I have to respect their need to do things that children their age often don't.
I hear you on this. We have a few busy boday neighbors who are forever telling my kids to stop doing something(climbing trees for exmple, or helping the neighbor ont eh roof of hte shed) and then add to that "you mom should be watching you better". My 9 year old has now taken to telling the one neighbor where she can shove it, not something I condone but I understand where he is coming from.

As for the situation at hand. I have thought those smae thoughts as the OP's dh, I jsut don't voice them loudly, though I have said things to my kids, like "That is why I have tou stay with me, or not do ___". I have a hard enough time keeping track of my own 4 kids I don't need to be worrying about what other people are letting their kids do. If you let your kid run around in an area where they could get clipped by a cart, don't get mad when it happens. I am too busy trying to stear my cart while keeping my own kids safe a zoo like that, I am not watching for little johnny with the inattentive parents to come darting out.

I'm all for givng children freedom to move and explore but their is a time and place for everything. I do not make my children stay right by my side in the store, heck when my ds was angry the other day at walmart while I was waiting to get fabric cut I let him go a few aisles down on his own to look at stuff while he calmed down. However, I do not allow them to run lile wild animals all over the store, if they are running around they must hold the cart. Freedom is given when they can be mindful of others, and be aware of the surroundings. When Dd wanted to walk through walmart playing her Nintendo DS I said okay BUT I had to hold her collar while we walked to guide her around people and obstacles. These parents did not give their children freedom while supervising, they just turned them loose without a second thought.

I had someone step in at the walmart I was at as we were leaving to give her2 cents to my kids. See as I was paying they were checking out the sale stuff that they put out across from the tills. I could see them, and if they started fighting I brought them back to me. THey weren't being bad at all, but certainly not perfect. Anyway after paying, and then getting coats on a zippered, getting my 4 year old back in the cart and giving reminders of parking lot safety(by this point it was dark), this woman who had been behind me in line comes up and asks the kids "who just came to your house the other day" My kids say no one, we weren't home(we did xmas at grandma's). SHe says "didn't santa come? why did he come" Ceilidh says Because she loves us (they know the truth about santa) so the lady looks puzzled at dd saying SHE, and proceeds to say "If you keep being bad like wee were today Santa is never bringingyou anything again". My 9 year old says "I wouldn't worry about that", DD looks at little brother (who still believes) then up at me and says "do you want to tell her or should I" The lady was so confused and then started to think I had mouthy kids. I jsut shook my head and kept walking. I was tempted to put her in her place but decided to teach my kids it is better to let them look the fool for opening their mouth by us just walking away. DD asked later if someone forgot to tell the lady Santa wasn't real.

ANyway the point of the story is the last thing we need is more interference from people who think they know how someone else's children should behave. The only time I step in is if a child is clearly in danger, for example I once took a 2 year old off a store ladder that looks close to toppling(it was not fully set up), and brought him back to his mom. I didn't jkudge her, just said "they get away so fast don't they, it looked like the ladder he was one was going to fall" and walked away. WHen you approach a parent without judgement and without telling them or thier kids to behave in a certian manner they typically offer a thank you not get offended.
post #65 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post

Dad said "F*** you"

Wow. What intelligence.
post #66 of 118
A risk you take when you inject yourself into stranger's lives is that they might tell you to f off.

Sounds like your husband is comfortable with this trade-off, but you are not. Perhaps a conversation with your husband is in order if his behavior is uncomfortable for you.
post #67 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
I'm not saying he had to "control" his child -- but if your child's wandering around in a crowded place with his mind elsewhere, why would you be stupidly commenting that another shopper "needs to watch where he's going?" Why not just provide your child with the following information: "If you want to hang out in another world, that's cool -- but you might bump into somebody or something in this world, and get hurt. Are you cool with that, son?"
I totally agree with the posters who called me on the above comment, and pointed out that being absentminded can hurt other people, too. I was actually being sarcastic when I said that; it's honestly not what I'd say to my own children.

I was just irritated that the dad I talked about was so rude to my dh: he seemed to think it was up to everyone else to keep an eye on his ds and keep out of his way -- similar to the way the young parents in the opening post blamed the elderly gentleman for their son getting hurt.

In reality, I don't expect my small children to always be aware of every possible way their actions can have an impact on themselves or others. It's MY job to be supervising, and intervening if they're doing something that can cause harm.
post #68 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post

In reality, I don't expect my small children to always be aware of every possible way their actions can have an impact on themselves or others. It's MY job to be supervising, and intervening if they're doing something that can cause harm.
Yep!

A sweet story: My children and I were navigating our way through a busy aisle last weekend, when a teenage boy (also navigating a cart) and my oldest (7) collided (neither was doing anything other than trying to get through) -- they simultaneously turned to each other and said, "Oh! Excuse me!!" and "No, that's all right!"... Obviously, my parental services were not needed in that situation!
post #69 of 118
I agree with those who said it would have been better for the OP's husband to simply say something kind to the elderly gentleman, rather than directly confronting the parents. But I also agree that it's hard to think these things through on the spur-of-the-moment.

If you see someone being mistreated, and feel compelled to speak up in the victim's defense, I think your good intentions will usually outweigh your inability to think of the exact perfect thing to say.

Ultimately, I believe the dh's response MAY very well have been encouraging to the elderly gentleman, since the unsupervising dad was so very very rude.

I disagree with those who said the OP's dh was rude to say what he said -- mainly because he wasn't just going up and injecting himself into a stranger's life: the rude dad had just injected himself into the elderly gentleman's life, and the OP's dh was speaking up in the elderly gentleman's defense.

If the parents had been conscientious enough to simply comfort their son, and had left the elderly gentleman alone as he proceeded to his car, totally unaware that a child had been clipped by his cart -- well, then, in that case it would've been rude for the OP's dh to inject himself into those other parents' lives.

But, as we know, they decided to inject themselves, possibly to the extent of really messing up an elderly man's day. It was caring, not rude, of the OP's husband to say what he did in that context.
post #70 of 118
Agreed, Mammalmamma.
post #71 of 118
Obviously the way the parent of the twins responded was very rude and not very classy.

But, wouldn't it be nice if we actually lived in a culture where watching out for children was... well, EVERYONE'S responsibility?

How hard is it, really, to keep an eye out for young'uns? Don't we do it all of the time? I sometimes don't have my DS with me while shopping, but I ALWAYS look out for where I'm going and make sure that stray kids do have a parent somewhere keeping an eye on them.

I thought it took a village... and here we are blaming parents because they do it *all* on their own. I mean if it takes a village - doesn't it take a village? Isn't that kinda what it means?

I've noticed that people from more child-friendly (seeming) cultures, few though they are (the cultures that are child friendly that is), they just don't mind kids running around as much.

Just being devil's advocate...
post #72 of 118
I personally find saying something nice to one person *as a way to say something rude to another person* to be very passive aggressive. I'm not saying this is what you would be doing mammalmama, but I know it is what I would be doing. So I go for the direct, albeit rude, approach.
post #73 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I personally find saying something nice to one person *as a way to say something rude to another person* to be very passive aggressive. I'm not saying this is what you would be doing mammalmama, but I know it is what I would be doing. So I go for the direct, albeit rude, approach.
Oh, definitely! If you're wanting to say something to the rude person, you should definitely direct your comment to HIM, rather than being passive-aggressive. It wasn't accurate for me to say that it would have been better to just speak to the elderly gentleman.

As I said in a previous post, I think it's possible that the rude dad will now be less likely to think he can attack elderly people for clipping his kids with their carts. The elderly man may have seemed like a "safe" target for his aggression -- but the OP's dh has now demonstrated that some (younger, stronger) people are not okay with this.

So I actually disagree with the posters who are sure that the OP's dh did absolutely nothing to help the situation.
post #74 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowMom View Post
Obviously the way the parent of the twins responded was very rude and not very classy.

But, wouldn't it be nice if we actually lived in a culture where watching out for children was... well, EVERYONE'S responsibility?

How hard is it, really, to keep an eye out for young'uns? Don't we do it all of the time? I sometimes don't have my DS with me while shopping, but I ALWAYS look out for where I'm going and make sure that stray kids do have a parent somewhere keeping an eye on them.

I thought it took a village... and here we are blaming parents because they do it *all* on their own. I mean if it takes a village - doesn't it take a village? Isn't that kinda what it means?

I've noticed that people from more child-friendly (seeming) cultures, few though they are (the cultures that are child friendly that is), they just don't mind kids running around as much.

Just being devil's advocate...
But aren't these child-friendly cultures also rich in respect for the elderly? Can you imagine someone in one of these cultures attacking an elderly person for accidentally clipping a child with his shopping-cart?

Of course, in these cultures, maybe elderly people only go out surrounded by all their extended-family members. So someone else would be pushing their cart for them, anyway.

Just playing devil's advocate. But yes, I agree that the scenario you shared would be very nice.
post #75 of 118
Well, when I say that after the fact it would have been better to say something directly to the older man, I meant to him and him alone -- not out loud. I agree with thismama in that saying something nice to one person can often be a passive-aggressive way to be rude to someone else -- my mom does it all of the time, and I'm prone to doing it, as well.

I do think, though, that one rude action does not warrant another, and that while speaking up in such a way may temporarily make everyone feel better, in the long run it does a big disservice to the society and to the children watching. It's a verbal punishment, and often sparks a contest of wills, hence the "F-you". Instead of making the parents realize what they were doing wrong, it put them on the defensive, and made them feel justified in thinking they were the victims. They didn't go home thinking, "Wow, we treated that old man poorly, and we need to keep a better eye on the kids." They went home thinking, "Can you believe that old man hit our kid, and that stranger had the gall to say something about it? Well, *I* told *him* what he could do..."
As for the old man, well, he probably just felt bad about the whole incident, and went home grumbling about kids today.

However, as I said before, I think that the OP's dh's heart was in the right place, and I agree that it's very hard to come up with the "right" words on the spur of the moment.

I also agree that many of these situations could be avoided if our society were more child friendly AND more respectful of the elderly.
post #76 of 118
re: speaking up, I'm not necessarily talking about taking people to task for their parenting skills, I think I'm talking more about speaking up against people being treated really rudely. The elderly man was treated incredibly rudely by the parents in the OP...and the OP's DH, as someone else said, was in a roundabout way defending him - though probably not in the most idyllic way.

I guess I just think if enough people would stand up against being unnecessarily rude to each other and (gently) call people out for being unnecessarily rude to others, maybe things would be a little more polite and friendly out and about i npublc instead of what I've seen. Or maybe it wouls start more fistfights. I dunno, maybe I'm just naive, or some other Pollyanna-type thing.

Sigh.


ETA: Or maybe I'd like to see more people gently calling others out when they are rude to them. Like, I would have loved to see the elderly man in the OP say something in a calm, polite manner, like, "There's no need to speak to me that way. It was an accident, it's difficult to see small children over these big carts, especially when they're running and not accompanied by an adult. I'm glad neither of us were seriously injured." KWIM?
post #77 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by AidynElyMama View Post
When my kids are screaming, squirrelling, whatever and others are going to be annoyed or bothered or caught up in a situation similiar to the OP, I remove myself. It isn't always convenient, it isn't always easy, but I feel it's my responsibility.
I don't view it as my job to make sure others aren't annoyed by my children. Now, I don't let my kids touch other people or anything like that, but if they annoy someone because they're talking loudly or laughing (yes, people get annoyed by this), then that's too bad. There are plenty of adults who do things that annoy me, but I don't ask them to come to the store at a less convenient time because of it.

Here's an example: I went into the post office with DS who was maybe 18 months at the time. He ran down the middle of the aisle where the PO boxes are. A woman was getting mail from her box. DS wasn't within 5 feet of her. She didn't have to move over, watch out for him, or anything. She turned around and said, "you need to go back by your mother now."

So, yep, I responded and said, "and you need to mind your own business and think about being nicer."

She huffed and walked off.

Was I rude to her? Probably. Was it deserved? Yep. It wasn't her place to say anything just because she didn't like my son being in her general vicinity. People seem to think they can treat children like pets; it annoys me to no end.

I don't think there's a polite way to tell other people how to parent. I allow my children more freedom than most parents. I've seen people smack their kids for getting five feet ahead of them. Holy cow! Even if I spanked my kids, I'd be hard pressed to do it for that kind of behavior. That's absolutely terrible, so no, I would never want those people commenting on my parenting.

In the OP's case, yes, hubby was rude. He wasn't particularly helpful. It really was none of his business. But, hey, I've said things like that before, too, in the heat of the moment.
post #78 of 118
You know she may have actually been more worried about your son running away from his mother than about your son bothering her.
post #79 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicole lisa View Post
No matter who he said it it would have been rude. And it wasn't helpful. It didn't help the man or the parents diffuse anything.
Honestly?
Too bad.

People who allow their children to disregard the reasonable rules of social interaction and common sense are irresponsible. They should be informed often and bluntly (not obscenely, mind you, but bluntly) that their choice to allow their children to behave in this manner is unacceptable. That is the natural consequence of their decision.

Frankly, I doubt whether any gentle : advice or intentionally helpful words would sink in with people such as the ones described by the OP. Gentle reminders are lost on some people and bluntness is sometimes more effective as a tool for change.
post #80 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicole lisa View Post
I do think it's rude. Rude to everyone involved; the kids, the parents, the OP as she cringed upon hearing her DH's interjection, and the man who felt bad and I'm sure just wanted to say sorry and get out of there without having a situation escalate.

For the record, I do not and have never controlled DS. Even when he was running ahead or wild there may have been a need to remind him to be safe but never a need to control him. Kids aren't robots or remote controlled vehicles. They don't need to be controlled.
You say "control" like it's a bad thing.
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