Women of Color #12 - Page 9

[barose]

Speaking of black friends, I have one. I met her by chance at an organic cafe over a years ago. We were drawn to each other and have similar interests (spiritual beliefs that are NOT Christian, volunteer, etc) and though we don’t see each other much, we write to each other everyday on Facebook.

Before that, I had none - not since high school.

[ErikaDP]

Wow Sisterfriends,

A person goes away for a few days and the thread comes to life with some serious issues!
Unfortunately, it is 2am here and I must sleep(just came in from a lovely evening stroll)so I will have to come back here in the later AM with my reply. Sleep well everyone!

*..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ ..·´ Peace, Love & Light!-:¦:-
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

Take Care,
Erika(I don't wear a fro, I'm just a sister who likes this smilie!):

[barose]

Originally Posted by ErikaDP

Wow Sisterfriends,

A person goes away for a few days and the thread comes to life with some serious issues!
Unfortunately, it is 2am here and I must sleep(just came in from a lovely evening stroll)so I will have to come back here in the later AM with my reply. Sleep well everyone!

*..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ ..·´ Peace, Love & Light!-:¦:-
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

Take Care,
Erika(I don't wear a fro, I'm just a sister who likes this smilie!):

I'm looking forward to it! :

[ErikaDP]

Hello Again,

First things first: Welcome back to all of the long-time posters that I haven't seen around these parts in a long while! And a big Welcome to all of the new members here!
Now, to comment on one of the topics at hand:
Rynna, I think that you confused my posts with someone elses. I am not the one who said that home ownership is a recent trend. As a matter of fact, I have many generations of home/land ownership in my family history and one of the points that I have made here at MDC repeatedly is that one of the most tragic occurrences brought about by Hurricane Katrina was that many of the folks in New Orleans that lost their homes were in houses that had been in their families for many, many years.
I think that many Black families prior to the 1970's owned at least some land(even if it was a many years abandoned farm in the south), but because of the great Black urban migration to the north in the forties, the images that we associate with Blacks now are almost exclusively urban.
Sure, I grew up in a urban setting, but my mother, grandmother and her mother all lived in homes that they owned(most had a mortgage at one time). And many of my friends growing up had the same history(as a matter of fact, usually when I go to visit friends, we always end up at someone's "big momma's house"). So I tend to think of the Black renter as a stereotype that may be true for some, but certainly not for all(or even most) Blacks.

I would love to post about the skin color debate and about Black couples/Black women but I am out of computer time and I will have to come back later to talk about those topics.
But I will say as a Black woman many years married to a Black man(whose parents have been married for 50 years), I always find conversations about intra/interracial relationships(especially marriage and/or parenting) fascinating. I will return here soon.

Take Care,
Erika(I don't wear a fro, I'm just a sister who likes this smilie!):

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

The majority of the women here are elite --they're part of a minority within a minority. Their experiences don't reflect a lot of the most common aspects of "black life." :

Originally Posted by eilonwy

Oh, not that at all. No, it's more like... the demographic here is decidedly upper middle class. At least. I remember a few years ago we discussed home ownership in the black community, for example, and I was the only person who was renting. Someone (Erika?) had brought it up because they'd encountered a news article which asserted that home ownership was a relatively recent thing for most black homeowners, and that it was still not terribly common. Most of the women posting here have college educations, something else which doesn't reflect the majority of black women in this country. Being married *at all* doesn't reflect the experience of a significant proportion of black mothers. In any case, all those things might come into play if we were to take a serious look at the issue of black women (and men) marrying non-black folks.

I don't have a lot of time but I did want to respond to these 2 comments, I guess they hit me on a visceral level. I may now be middle-class by virtue of education/income but I did not start life that way at all.

I was born in the county hospital aka the free hospital, my folks never owned a house, for the most part my folks were not middle class, they were times we were eating gubment cheese and butter. That said, like many Black families they always told us kids to stay in school, blah blah. While I did drop out of HS I did later go to college.

I say all this to say that for many Black folks that may seem "elite" many of us are one generation removed from poverty and know it well. One whole side of my family was raised on the most notorious housing projects in the US and still live in section 8 today.

For those like me, I see us a straddlers, one foot in the old world and 1 foot in this new middle class existence and at times its makes for a pretty schizophrenic existence.

I can't say that home ownership is new to Blacks, there have always been folks in my family with a piece of land, I think its been through urban migration that Blacks lost property.

More later...

Shay

[AndrewsMother]

Originally Posted by barose

Speaking of black friends, I have one. I met her by chance at an organic cafe over a years ago. We were drawn to each other and have similar interests (spiritual beliefs that are NOT Christian, volunteer, etc) and though we don’t see each other much, we write to each other everyday on Facebook.

Before that, I had none - not since high school.

I too have not had a friend since high school and neither she nor I had anything in common. We still communicate with one another today, but she and I are not close. Evenin high school I never told her my true feelings. Even today she will tell me that I am the smartest person that I know and that past mistakes do not matter, but we can't just sit down and reveal our inner self because she would not understand. My family did not approve of our relationship then and I know that they would not now. My family has a high standard of conduct that I sometimes feel as if I can't live up to.

As I type I can maybe realize why a black man with similar upbrining might have a hard time finding a black wife if I can't even find the right black friend. Interracial marriage is quite common in my family and I have never gievn it a thought until right now.

My husband is my best friend and to be honest he and I have very little in common. We are cohorts, but our childhoods were not similar in anyway. When I was younger my mother and other family members always cautioned us against being common. His family is exactly that. Fortunately he is open to change (more so than I) and ready to embrace a different lifestlye. There are times when I shake head in wonder. If he were not so loving and wonderful I would truly wonder if my family would look down on him because of his upbringing.

Originally Posted by jeca

Lowering your standards would be like settling and I don't think(and I know you don't think that either) we as parents period should do that when it comes to our children. as it stands right now I have no black friends wher we live, not a one. I hadtow but they moved and I just haven't found any like minded mamas since. DH says it's because I'm anti-social my sister says it's because I give off a "white" vibe whatever that means. I know what it means I've heard it all my life but it still seems silly to me.

I have heard both of the above comments all of my life. I am not antisocial, but I do exude an air of determination and self assurance that I have been told comes off as arrogance. I am very confident in my abilities and always have been. A friend in Atlanta tells me that I was one of those smart children who ran off friends because I knew too much. Perhaps she is correct. I do rememeber dumbing myself down once I entered public school in an attempt to garner friends. That I soon realized was nonsense, but not before my G.P.A declined and I realized that I was destined to be lonely for the rest of my high school career.


Please forgive all typographical errors. I have begun to post twice before and both times my 2 year old erased the screen. I am not being a parent today. He is sitting in my bed watching Annie for the 2nd time. I am tired, frustrated and stuck at home with no car in the hottest city in the world. Well atleast that is how it feels to me.

I truly hope to connect with someone here because an online friend or support network can be just as beneficial as a local relationship.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by shayinme

I don't have a lot of time but I did want to respond to these 2 comments, I guess they hit me on a visceral level. I may now be middle-class by virtue of education/income but I did not start life that way at all. {snip}

I say all this to say that for many Black folks that may seem "elite" many of us are one generation removed from poverty and know it well.

Very true, and very relevant. Thank you for making me feel less alone. Personally, I think the awareness is very important, because it encourages us to cultivate identities which have nothing to do with economic status or even formal education. It does radically alter our perceptions, though-- not only where we are, but where we're coming from.

Originally Posted by piad

My family has a high standard of conduct that I sometimes feel as if I can't live up to.

As I type I can maybe realize why a black man with similar upbrining might have a hard time finding a black wife if I can't even find the right black friend. Interracial marriage is quite common in my family and I have never gievn it a thought until right now.

My husband is my best friend and to be honest he and I have very little in common. We are cohorts, but our childhoods were not similar in anyway. When I was younger my mother and other family members always cautioned us against being common. His family is exactly that. Fortunately he is open to change (more so than I) and ready to embrace a different lifestlye. There are times when I shake head in wonder. If he were not so loving and wonderful I would truly wonder if my family would look down on him because of his upbringing.

Well, I am the product of an interracial relationship. The little family history I have on my father's side indicates that it happened, but not constantly. My father himself... well, let's put it this way. When my grandmother was sober, my grandfather was the man she'd been married to when my father was born (tall, thin, very dark skinned black man). When she was drunk, he was a white fellow from a neighboring town. My father has two older siblings who are both over six feet tall (his sister is 6'2") and fairly dark skinned. My father himself was 5'6", tops, had hazel-green eyes and light brown hair. His skin was probably three shades darker than mine. Yeah, pretty much.

My husband is white. My brother's first wife was half mexican and half white (very very pale skin, very dark hair); His second wife is black. My sister has three children by two different men, both of whom were black. They're all "interracial relationships," though, unless we start dating each other (SO not happening ).

[purplegirl]

Just popping in before I take off for vacation. My family is traveling to Martha's Vineyard for the week--talk about the mecca of black upper middle class. I am enjoying this conversation but time doesn't allow me to write more. I will upon my return next Saturday!
Let's keep it going mamas!

[barose]

Originally Posted by purplegirl

Just popping in before I take off for vacation. My family is traveling to Martha's Vineyard for the week--talk about the mecca of black upper middle class. I am enjoying this conversation but time doesn't allow me to write more. I will upon my return next Saturday!
Let's keep it going mamas!

Interesting - because I have never been in the company of upper middle class AA before. Maybe at the SF Symphony, or opera but it was usually an older person or couple.

Strange, now that I think about it. It might because of my location: all of the places that we vacationed here in California: La Jolla, Sea Ranch, Big Sur, Santa Barbabra, it was pretty hard to find another black person there. When we went to Sea Ranch a few weeks ago, I was tickled pink to see TWO black couples on two different occasions.

[ishereal]

I'm here ladies!!!!!!!!!

[ErikaDP]

I'm back! And I will use the following quote to re-start the conversation:

Originally Posted by barose

Originally Posted by purplegirl

Just popping in before I take off for vacation. My family is traveling to Martha's Vineyard for the week--talk about the mecca of black upper middle class. I am enjoying this conversation but time doesn't allow me to write more. I will upon my return next Saturday!
Let's keep it going mamas!

Interesting - because I have never been in the company of upper middle class AA before. Maybe at the SF Symphony, or opera but it was usually an older person or couple.

Strange, now that I think about it. It might because of my location: all of the places that we vacationed here in California: La Jolla, Sea Ranch, Big Sur, Santa Barbabra, it was pretty hard to find another black person there. When we went to Sea Ranch a few weeks ago, I was tickled pink to see TWO black couples on two different occasions.

I read the above exchange and I thought to myself that I am on both sides of the conversation. We have been seen as elite by others in many situations and we have looked for more POC at cultural events/vacations/activities that we have participated in.
The funny thing about stepping out of one's "cultural" comfort zone is that someone will be the first/few to do so and at times, being the one who is doing it come with the price of feeling isolated.
But because of where I grew up, I don't feel as isolated as I might feel if I grew up in a more homogeneous area.
You see, my husband and I both grew up in Seattle in what would be called middle class neighborhoods(they are both now considered upper middle class neighborhoods)that had plenty of upwardly mobile people of color(both of the neighborhoods that we grew up in were/are very diverse). They both had/have solid tax bases, good schools and many local public/private services(banks, supermarkets, libraries, retail shops, etc). And after living on the East coast for 8+ years and seeing the great differences between the way that we grew up in Seattle and the way many areas in the east are so segregated by race/ethnicity and class, I now have come to recognize that we did grow up in a "elite" environment(although at the time, it didn't feel like it) and because of that upbringing we view the world in a very different way than many of the Blacks that we have met that have grown up here. And that difference sometimes makes it hard to connect with folks.
Because I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood, I participate in activities that aren't typically associated with urban Blacks(camping, snow skiing, hiking etc)and I have a very diverse palate(even though I am a very picky eater) so you will find me eating foods that come from many different cultural traditions.
I also have a comfort level around different people that makes many of my new friends here uncomfortable. They much prefer to keep certain folks at arms length, only getting to know them on a superficial level(many of my friends here had never been in each other houses)and for me, that would be unheard of.
I am pretty much a "what you see is what you get" kind of person with every one I meet and I don't have a "Black Erika" and a "Bland Erika" that I switch between and that is something else that makes some here think twice about me too.
And then I have to add that some of my Black friends here are first or second generation Americans so their perspective is even more complex.

Wow, just reading this post is making my head swim! I don't even think that it makes a lot of sense! I might have to come back and make some edits later, but for now I will leave it be.

Take Care,
Erika(I don't wear a fro, I'm just a sister who likes this smilie!):

[ajv]

why is everyone so apologetic about being "elite"

i havent posted in a while, plus i need to do some housework. i have only just skimmed the latests posts. i find it so so interesting that everyone is so apologetic about being elite. everyone has their "my life was hard before now" or "everyone in my family didnt have it this good" story.

well, i admit it. i am elite. forget my past, or my family's past. right now,TODAY i am elite. that is why i subscribe to this thread, b/c i am in need the company of some women who are also elite but not necessarily white. i thank God for what i have been blessed with, and i will tell you nothing to downplay my blessings. (not today anyway). i love my poor brothers and sisters (literally and figuratively), i try to identify with them, but i kno our lives are completely different.

we elite people need others of all social economic levels in our circles. my hubby is a physican and he was working with a nurse at a rural clinic (part of a large medical group.) she was a young woman from our church who went on to nursing school after high school. she said to him, "i used to dream about working with you when i was younger"...he was shocked, he didnt even kno she was interested in medicine or observing him. she has since gone on to become a nurse midwife. but my point is that we need a variety not just ethnic variety, but also economic variety so that we can all succeed.

it reminds me of that criticism of Obama earlier in the campaign--he was an elitist--well, of course, you dont go to Harvard law school to be a populist. Plus, i think he has been the poorest person running for president in quite a while...but i digress. i also tivo'd the cnn series and cant wait to see it.

aj in colorado

[barose]

ajv - I think for some people in some situations, they dont want to give the impression that something was "handed" to them, that they didnt come from "old money", had to pay for college and so on. Not that having anything handed to them is a bad thing either.

You're right, today is today and we should embrace what we have.

[barose]

"Good Hair"

So much to talk about here!

So yesterday, we threw my grandmother a surprise birthday party. We got together with relatives who I haven’t seen in years or at all. We are a small family (40 at the MOST) but we are not very close. It was a nice small family reunion/b-day party.

Since most of my friends are not black, I don’t experience this very often, but yesterday I was bombarded with “good hair” comments. I guess I’m the only one besides my grandmother who has 3b/3c (don’t really know which – doesn’t matter). I mean it was a HUGE deal. Its 2008 and I was stunned that this is still an issue. Most of my family is college educated, half are entrepreneurs – there is a pretty wide range of lifestyles, but the “good hair” thing lives on even with the guys.

I don’t even know how to respond. I guess I was in shock. I said “thank you” because my hair IS good, but not any better than my mother who has 4b hair. Its good in the way that ALL black hair or all hair for that matter is good as long as its healthy.

Does anyone deal with this? Does it bother you? How do you respond?

[sunshinestarr]

Oh, oh, I didn't know about this tribe!! I'd love to join!

[AndrewsMother]

Originally Posted by barose

Interesting - because I have never been in the company of upper middle class AA before. Maybe at the SF Symphony, or opera but it was usually an older person or couple.

Strange, now that I think about it. It might because of my location: all of the places that we vacationed here in California: La Jolla, Sea Ranch, Big Sur, Santa Barbabra, it was pretty hard to find another black person there. When we went to Sea Ranch a few weeks ago, I was tickled pink to see TWO black couples on two different occasions.

My church life and my family life was made up of middle and upper middle class blacks and I miss the community. I delight in seeing successful Black Americans, it makes me proud of my race, proud to be me and it encourages me to push myself and my family harder.

Originally Posted by ErikaDP

I'm back! And I will use the following quote to re-start the conversation read the above exchange and I thought to myself that I am on both sides of the conversation. We have been seen as elite by others in many situations and we have looked for more POC at cultural events/vacations/activities that we have participated in.
The funny thing about stepping out of one's "cultural" comfort zone is that someone will be the first/few to do so and at times, being the one who is doing it come with the price of feeling isolated.
But because of where I grew up, I don't feel as isolated as I might feel if I grew up in a more homogeneous area.
You see, my husband and I both grew up in Seattle in what would be called middle class neighborhoods(they are both now considered upper middle class neighborhoods)that had plenty of upwardly mobile people of color(both of the neighborhoods that we grew up in were/are very diverse). They both had/have solid tax bases, good schools and many local public/private services(banks, supermarkets, libraries, retail shops, etc). And after living on the East coast for 8+ years and seeing the great differences between the way that we grew up in Seattle and the way many areas in the east are so segregated by race/ethnicity and class, I now have come to recognize that we did grow up in a "elite" environment(although at the time, it didn't feel like it) and because of that upbringing we view the world in a very different way than many of the Blacks that we have met that have grown up here. And that difference sometimes makes it hard to connect with folks.
Because I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood, I participate in activities that aren't typically associated with urban Blacks(camping, snow skiing, hiking etc)and I have a very diverse palate(even though I am a very picky eater) so you will find me eating foods that come from many different cultural traditions.


Take Care,
Erika(I don't wear a fro, I'm just a sister who likes this smilie!):

The neighborhood that you grew up in sounds wonderful. The neighborhood in which we currently reside is racially diverse except for the fact that there are very very very few blacks.

I have a friend who laughs at me because I seek out black doctors, black dentists, black optometrists, etc, etc, especially those that have nice practices. Maybe I am asking too much, but how hard would it be to have an enclave of professional blacks at my service.

Originally Posted by ajv

i havent posted in a while, plus i need to do some housework. i have only just skimmed the latests posts. i find it so so interesting that everyone is so apologetic about being elite. everyone has their "my life was hard before now" or "everyone in my family didnt have it this good" story.

I think that I don't like the term because the past few years of my life have not felt elite at all. Yes I will attend medical school within a few years and my family is comprised of individuals with college degrees. Most have advanced degrees. My greatgrandparents graduated from college and were not enslaved on one side of my family so I guess that they were considered elite. I feel so far removed from my family, that I just can't even feel elite. I have an Uncle is is always saying that "we did not come from junk, so don't forget that". Right now I really need to grasp a hold of his words and hold them dear.

You are right there is nothing wrong with being elite, I just got knocked off of my pedestal by life and I am working to get back there.

Sorry for rambling, but I have not had anyone to really talk to in a long time.

[AndrewsMother]

Originally Posted by barose

[I don’t even know how to respond. I guess I was in shock. I said “thank you” because my hair IS good, but not any better than my mother who has 4b hair. Its good in the way that ALL black hair or all hair for that matter is good as long as its healthy.

Does anyone deal with this? Does it bother you? How do you respond?

Wow!!! I had a child say that to me the other day and I was astounded. I have had those words directed towards me most of my life and it is quite embarrassing. I forget at times that people still use the term good hair and bad hair with regard to texture. I generally only hear the phrase when I visit family is Mississippi.

My hair is wavy/curly and somewhat thick, but very unmanageable. There is nothing good about my hair. My hair could not even be described as pretty because it does not behave and it draws up when exposed to humidity.

Now my cousin, she has good hair. It is thick and coarse and very healthy. When done in any style her hair looks magnificent.

[barose]

Originally Posted by piad

Wow!!! I had a child say that to me the other day and I was astounded. I have had those words directed towards me most of my life and it is quite embarrassing. I forget at times that people still use the term good hair and bad hair with regard to texture. I generally only hear the phrase when I visit family is Mississippi.

My hair is wavy/curly and somewhat thick, but very unmanageable. There is nothing good about my hair. My hair could not even be described as pretty because it does not behave and it draws up when exposed to humidity.

Now my cousin, she has good hair. It is thick and coarse and very healthy. When done in any style her hair looks magnificent.

The crazy thing is, except for my grandparents, 90% of my family on my mothers side is born and raised in California. The rest was raised in Germany and Alaska (NONE from down south).

[ErikaDP]

Originally Posted by ajv

i havent posted in a while, plus i need to do some housework. i have only just skimmed the latests posts. i find it so so interesting that everyone is so apologetic about being elite. everyone has their "my life was hard before now" or "everyone in my family didnt have it this good" story.

well, i admit it. i am elite. forget my past, or my family's past. right now,TODAY i am elite. that is why i subscribe to this thread, b/c i am in need the company of some women who are also elite but not necessarily white. i thank God for what i have been blessed with, and i will tell you nothing to downplay my blessings. (not today anyway). i love my poor brothers and sisters (literally and figuratively), i try to identify with them, but i kno our lives are completely different.

we elite people need others of all social economic levels in our circles. my hubby is a physican and he was working with a nurse at a rural clinic (part of a large medical group.) she was a young woman from our church who went on to nursing school after high school. she said to him, "i used to dream about working with you when i was younger"...he was shocked, he didnt even kno she was interested in medicine or observing him. she has since gone on to become a nurse midwife. but my point is that we need a variety not just ethnic variety, but also economic variety so that we can all succeed.

it reminds me of that criticism of Obama earlier in the campaign--he was an elitist--well, of course, you dont go to Harvard law school to be a populist. Plus, i think he has been the poorest person running for president in quite a while...but i digress. i also tivo'd the cnn series and cant wait to see it.

aj in colorado

Hi Aj,

My only problem with the "elite"term is that it creates yet another barrier between folks. Just like the earlier terms "uppity" and "talented tenth" did. And I am all about bring down barriers!
But yes, my family is what many here would term elite-I am a SAHM unschooling my last child(a 15yr old DS), we live in a upper middle class suburban town in CT and my husband is employed in a white collar position that sustains our family.
We have 3 adult children who all pretty successful and we are at a point in our lives were we are thinking about our next big adventure-life after kids!
Even having said that, we still have economic worries, especially when it come to thinking about our children's futures. But I still know how truly blessed we all are.

So I'll finish this post by saying thank you for your perspective Aj! You had me think about how we should be "loud and proud" of our place in this life. Especially if it helps someone else see that there are many choices/chances to live any kind of life that you choose.

Take Care,
Erika(I don't wear a fro, I'm just a sister who likes this smilie!):

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by ErikaDP

Hi Aj,

My only problem with the "elite"term is that it creates yet another barrier between folks. Just like the earlier terms "uppity" and "talented tenth" did. And I am all about bring down barriers!

Take Care,
Erika(I don't wear a fro, I'm just a sister who likes this smilie!):

I agree with this, I do feel terms like elite really do create barriers when especially as POC we don't need anymore barriers.

Originally Posted by barose

ajv - I think for some people in some situations, they dont want to give the impression that something was "handed" to them, that they didnt come from "old money", had to pay for college and so on. Not that having anything handed to them is a bad thing either.

You're right, today is today and we should embrace what we have.

Exactly. For me personally while I can't say nothing was giving to me, I had a lot of folks along the way who helped me but I also worked hard. I didn't come from old money, yes there are segments of my family with money but none really ever reached me. So personally I do like to make that distinction because 16-17 years ago I was on state benefits and its taken a lot to move from being a teenage mom/hs dropout to who I am now.

All in all though I do try to live in the moment.

Shay