Women of Color #12 - Page 11

[ishereal]

my pics are in my siggy!

[ishereal]

I see from some of you ladies sigs that you homeschool, that's very encouraging, I don't know any WOC irl that do.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by ishereal

my pics are in my siggy!

you're so pretty!

[barose]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

you're so pretty!

:

[ajv]

its the length that's the thing, heart burn is not a myth

Originally Posted by eilonwy

I"m curious-- why would you make such a promise? I mean, I kind of understand that you might not want to make your daughter feel badly if her hair wasn't as long as yours, but cutting it for her sake? Isn't that just drawing attention to the fact that the two of you have different hair and you feel like she's in some kind of minority, that you don't want her to feel alone? I'm not articulating well here... I think I need to come back to this later.



The heartburn myth drives me batty. I had tons of heartburn with all but one of my kids, and they were all born in various stages of baldness. My sister had no heartburn at all, and my oldest niece was born with like, two inches of soft, silky, jet-black hair.


Thanks for the link Jeca. I have that book somewhere. I'm 3A, my kids are 1B, 2B, 2A and too young to tell.

i hope this works (the quotation thing), it is the length that is the thing. most people dont notice the different textures of short hair, it is hard to tell how curly/straight my hair is without the added weight of the length. so even tho we have different hair, it doesnt LOOK different due the same or similar length. yes, i dont want her to feel alone, and yes, she is in the minority she is an african american girl, i dont want everyone on tv AND her mama having hair longer than hers, my reasoning is that it will benefit her self esteem. hair length is a standard of beauty in the dominant culture.


i thot the heartburn thing was an old wives tale, then i saw a little blurb in some parenting magazine that said scientists linked the enzyme that creates hair in unborn children with heartburn for pregnant women...it was a strong correlative not a predictor. i cut it out and sent it to my mama just so she could tell me " i told you so..."

[ishereal]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

you're so pretty!

Originally Posted by barose

:

: Thank You

[NishaG]

Wow..I haven't been to this thread in a while. However, this convo is quite interesting. Let me re-introduce myself: My name is Nisha, I am 35, married (to a Black Man) and the mother of 2 sons. I also have PCOS. I grew up in the East Bay, but now live in a suburb of Sacramento (the eternal search for "good" public schools). I am TTC #3, and hope that, once I do conceive, I am able to have a homebirth with a midwife.

I'll just hit and miss a few topics: My DH is light-skinned, very much so, and, I really think it bothers him when/if people comment on it. His whole immediate family is light, and, they were kind of treated like "royalty" by their peers while growing up in Oakland. It may have also been the combination of them living in the "hills", having a mom who SAH and a dad that was able to support the whole family of 7.

I guess I would be considered elite: We own our own home, are educated, I'm more crunchy than not, and we are kind of removed from the lifestyle of I guess the "average" Black Family?

As far as friends go, I have more African-American friends online at soulcysters than I do in real life, and, the majority of them are college-educated, and I guess you would say elite, as most of them are TTC as well and in committed relationships.

Glad to meet you all.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by ajv

i hope this works (the quotation thing), it is the length that is the thing. most people dont notice the different textures of short hair, it is hard to tell how curly/straight my hair is without the added weight of the length. so even tho we have different hair, it doesnt LOOK different due the same or similar length. yes, i dont want her to feel alone, and yes, she is in the minority she is an african american girl, i dont want everyone on tv AND her mama having hair longer than hers, my reasoning is that it will benefit her self esteem. hair length is a standard of beauty in the dominant culture.

Right... that's the problem I have. It is a standard of beauty in the dominant culture, but by refusing to have your hair longer than your daughter's... well, don't you feel like you're perpetuating that standard? As to different textures, do you think your daughter won't notice that yours is different from hers?

My older nieces both have thick, "nappy" hair. When she was 18 months old my niece knew that her hair and my hair were different (in fact, her hair was very different from that of anyone in our family-- she's probably a 4A). She told me once that when she grew up, she was going to be just like me: She'd have big boobs, a big butt, and long, curly red hair. I told her that it wasn't likely-- she was probably going to grow up to be be tall, slim, have a less-pronounced figure and that her hair would still be nappy when she grew up. She'd also be a beautiful girl and a wonderful human being. : It's not that I have a problem with short haired women-- I've shaved my hair many times (in fact, I was entirely bald for about two years relatively recently), but it was my choice, and it was for myself. My nieces don't resent the length of my hair, and I don't resent the fact that they don't look bald and ridiculous in cornrows. I'm not going to send the message to them that there's something less beautiful about short hair or more beautiful about long hair by running in the opposite direction and denouncing the hair I was born with. I mean what would that possibly teach them about self-love, that it only applies or is necessary if you're a minority? Honestly, I think that self-hatred on the part of "majority" members causes at least as many problems for minorites as the lack of self-love within minority communities.


And.. I'm still not really buying the heartburn thing, not that it's relevant. I realize that the plural of anecdote is not data, but I can't think of anyone for whom it held true.

[AndrewsMother]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

Right... that's the problem I have. It is a standard of beauty in the dominant culture, but by refusing to have your hair longer than your daughter's... well, don't you feel like you're perpetuating that standard? As to different textures, do you think your daughter won't notice that yours is different from hers?

My older nieces both have thick, "nappy" hair. When she was 18 months old my niece knew that her hair and my hair were different (in fact, her hair was very different from that of anyone in our family-- she's probably a 4A). She told me once that when she grew up, she was going to be just like me: She'd have big boobs, a big butt, and long, curly red hair. I told her that it wasn't likely-- she was probably going to grow up to be be tall, slim, have a less-pronounced figure and that her hair would still be nappy when she grew up. She'd also be a beautiful girl and a wonderful human being. : It's not that I have a problem with short haired women-- I've shaved my hair many times (in fact, I was entirely bald for about two years relatively recently), but it was my choice, and it was for myself. My nieces don't resent the length of my hair, and I don't resent the fact that they don't look bald and ridiculous in cornrows. I'm not going to send the message to them that there's something less beautiful about short hair or more beautiful about long hair by running in the opposite direction and denouncing the hair I was born with. I mean what would that possibly teach them about self-love, that it only applies or is necessary if you're a minority? Honestly, I think that self-hatred on the part of "majority" members causes at least as many problems for minorites as the lack of self-love within minority communities.


And.. I'm still not really buying the heartburn thing, not that it's relevant. I realize that the plural of anecdote is not data, but I can't think of anyone for whom it held true.

Your words were well said. I feel the exact same way except your way of writing is so much more eloquent than mine.

Ajv,

if for example you were of a fair complexion and your sister were of a dark complexion and grew up jealous of your skin tone would you have only sought out men of a lighter hue to marry in hopes that any unborn children would not be dark and perhaps feel inferior to you because of their skin color?

I am asking simply because a parent can possess many attributes that could possibly make their child(ren) feel inferior. My mother always gets what she wants, and at times I wish that I had that gift. compared to her I will forever be a shrill sparrow and she lioness.

Your daughter should learn to embrace whatever hair God has given here and not judge her standard of beauty against you or anyone else, just as I have learned to realize that I have far more diplomacy and wisdom than my mother may ever possess. It is our job as black women of this generation to break the ridiculous cycle that long hair and fair skin is the definition of beauty.

[Barbamama]

Subscribed to the thread a while ago, finally de-lurking

to introduce myself and to thank you all for such a great discussion in the past couple of days. It prompted me to start thinking about and talking with DH about how we will prepare DD to handle the "good hair, fair skin" foolishness when it rears its ugly head. My parents didn't do that for me, and while it wasn't the biggest deficit in my upbringing, it did take me a long time to become aware of all of the subtle ways that it informed my relationships, both inside and outside of our family.

DH is white, French, and sees nationality as a more defining characteristic than race, something I'm starting to understand better. But when he first told me, "Honey, I'm not white, I'm French" I looked at him like he had lost his mind. Just didn't compute for this African-American woman. And he's learning more of the subtle ways prejudices influence daily life in the US, including dividing people of the same race.

Which takes me back to the hair thing . . . . My thoughts are still pretty amorphous, so I won't share them just yet -- ya'll are such a smart, well-spoken group I feel like I need to pull them together a bit more. And the "Mama!!!" that DD just shouted over the monitor tells me that nap time has ended. Let the toddler games begin!

But again, thank you!! Hope you don't mind if I join in!!

[ishereal]

Originally Posted by Barbamama

to introduce myself and to thank you all for such a great discussion in the past couple of days. It prompted me to start thinking about and talking with DH about how we will prepare DD to handle the "good hair, fair skin" foolishness when it rears its ugly head. My parents didn't do that for me, and while it wasn't the biggest deficit in my upbringing, it did take me a long time to become aware of all of the subtle ways that it informed my relationships, both inside and outside of our family.

DH is white, French, and sees nationality as a more defining characteristic than race, something I'm starting to understand better. But when he first told me, "Honey, I'm not white, I'm French" I looked at him like he had lost his mind. Just didn't compute for this African-American woman. And he's learning more of the subtle ways prejudices influence daily life in the US, including dividing people of the same race.

Which takes me back to the hair thing . . . . My thoughts are still pretty amorphous, so I won't share them just yet -- ya'll are such a smart, well-spoken group I feel like I need to pull them together a bit more. And the "Mama!!!" that DD just shouted over the monitor tells me that nap time has ended. Let the toddler games begin!

But again, thank you!! Hope you don't mind if I join in!!

[sunshinestarr]

Ok this thread is way too active for me! But I wanted to say that I'm lurking and enjoying, even if I can't really keep up.

[princesstutu]

Originally Posted by Barbamama

DH is white, French, and sees nationality as a more defining characteristic than race, something I'm starting to understand better. But when he first told me, "Honey, I'm not white, I'm French" I looked at him like he had lost his mind. Just didn't compute for this African-American woman. And he's learning more of the subtle ways prejudices influence daily life in the US, including dividing people of the same race.

That's fascinating to me, as I've known a few French people of "mixed race" and they suffered a lot of racism in France b/c of it. I wonder if there is a strong urban vs. where ever element to French racism.

Hair, to me, is something we really need to stop worrying about. Right now, my hair is "relaxed." For about 8 years, I'd worn it natural (shaved, TWA, longer w/my spiral curls, etc.), but now...I straightened it. Sometimes, my hair is a political statement. Right now, it's not. I just like to switch it up a bit and I think it's good that our daughters also see hair as "just an accessory." Like earrings or anklets.

My older daughter has locs b/c she doesn't like to get her hair done. Period. I'm not trying to make a statement with her hair, altho I do looooove locs and I think they really add to her beauty. (Everyone loves her hair. It actually annoys her to get so many compliments. LOL) She does want long hair and so, as her locs grow, she enjoys her hair more. I think the enjoyment is key.

My younger daughter rocks braids and puffs, b/c her hair wouldn't take locs when I tried them. She, too, hates to get her hair done. I don't like doing hair on the regular, so I've thought about shaving their heads, but their dad would have a fit. Not worth the hassle.

I can't remember where I was going with this, so I'll stop here.

[barose]

Originally Posted by Barbamama

DH is white, French, and sees nationality as a more defining characteristic than race, something I'm starting to understand better. But when he first told me, "Honey, I'm not white, I'm French" I looked at him like he had lost his mind. Just didn't compute for this African-American woman. And he's learning more of the subtle ways prejudices influence daily life in the US, including dividing people of the same race.

Interesting! Because when I speak of a European (or any other nationality) I know, I usually say, "French woman" English man", "Dutch child" NOT "white" or "black" no matter what color their skin is. For Americans, we are only white, black, Asian, Latino or other - not just American.

[ishereal]

Originally Posted by princesstutu

Sometimes, my hair is a political statement. Right now, it's not. I just like to switch it up a bit and I think it's good that our daughters also see hair as "just an accessory." Like earrings or anklets.

That's the thing, I don't think that hair is just an accessory. It is very much apart of who I am like my arm or leg and I choose not to alter it's natural texture. How you wear your hair does say something about you (wether it's true or not), choosing to wear your hair natural speaks volume and today is seen as a political statement. Chemical fire are dangerous and filled with tons of carcinogens.

[barose]

Originally Posted by ishereal

That's the thing, I don't think that hair is just an accessory. It is very much apart of who I am like my arm or leg and I choose not to alter it's natural texture. How you wear your hair does say something about you (wether it's true or not), choosing to wear your hair natural speaks volume and today is seen as a political statement. Chemical fire are dangerous and filled with tons of carcinogens.

I think it can be both. My mother went natural seven years ago with her 4b hair and locked it. She didn’t have a statement agenda, she was just sick of the fire cream and not being able to swim and sweat when she wants.

Her locks are in a short bob, and her hair is cute and makes a statement to other Black women that even nappy hair (not just "good hair") can be natural. I feel like I can’t really say anything to anyone about going natural because I have "good hair" so 'what do I know?" : I’ve gotten crap about it when I stopped straightening my hair, so I don’t open my mouth about it anymore unless asked.

[princesstutu]

Originally Posted by ishereal

How you wear your hair does say something about you (wether it's true or not), choosing to wear your hair natural speaks volume and today is seen as a political statement. Chemical fire are dangerous and filled with tons of carcinogens.

Meh. No offense, but I just don't totally agree. I know lots of ppl with locs who don't have the consciousness God gave a gnat. It's just a hairstyle. And, I've decided that that's not a bad thing. Hair is sometimes just hair.

I wouldn't make assumptions about a person based on his or her hairstyle anymore than I'd make assumptions based on skin darkness. Add to that the fact that non-WOC rock the "unnatural" hair all the time and no one gets on them about it and I just can't be bothered to care on that level, anymore.

I see your point, tho.

IMO, all hair is "good" hair. Bald is "good", too. Hair can be seen as a significant indicator, but that's a choice, really. I think how hair affects a person is highly individual and I know I went natural b/c I needed to work out my hair issues. (I didn't realize I had any until my dd was born.) People have to be confident and introspective enough to find their own truths. Hair for me...no big deal. Hair for someone else...big deal. And, that's okay. I like the sociological aspects of the discussion, but when it comes down to it...assumptions are not always the healthiest thoughts to rely upon.

[eilonwy]

I am not my hair.

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by ishereal

That's the thing, I don't think that hair is just an accessory. It is very much apart of who I am like my arm or leg and I choose not to alter it's natural texture. How you wear your hair does say something about you (wether it's true or not), choosing to wear your hair natural speaks volume and today is seen as a political statement. Chemical fire are dangerous and filled with tons of carcinogens.

I'm not really sure I agree with this, when I first went natural almost 9 years ago I felt the same way you do but the longer I am natural it really is just part of who I am as a person. Even my locs, I have been loced now 4 years and at first I had a lot of energy tied up in them but recently I realized its just hair.

I think as Black women we need to be careful about grouping folks by hair especially as being natural has become almost trendy, one only has to go to certain large hair boards and I have seen folks wanting locs without even being natural. For them locs is not deep, its not spiritual, its just hair. That said, I have known some deep sistas, my former advisor in college who opened my eyes in so many ways yet she was relaxed. There are some seriously deep sistas whp forever whatever reasons choose to relax. I agree its not the healthiest or the most natural thing but at this stage in my naptural journey I let folks be.

Shay

[Barbamama]

Originally Posted by princesstutu

That's fascinating to me, as I've known a few French people of "mixed race" and they suffered a lot of racism in France b/c of it. I wonder if there is a strong urban vs. where ever element to French racism.

From what I've been able to discern French racism has a fundamental anti-immigrant, (esp. recent immigrant) "where are you from" gloss to it. (Not that we don't have the same sentiments here in the US, but that's another thread altogether). In other words, are you French from continental France? Or from elsewhere? -- esp. North Africa. Also, it seems that interracial relationships (therefore perhaps "mixed-race" children?) aren't well received in certain regions, esp. the French Caribbean. Wonder if that was part of your friends' experience? DH has said that we wouldn't have an easy time of it if we were to move to Martinique or Guadeloupe in particular. I can only wonder what THAT's about. Guess we'll just have to make do with St. Barth's.

B/c DH isn't of African descent his perspective and experiences are, well, just his. (I'm dying to sit down with a few French ("from France" and "from elsewhere") sistas and get their perspectives.) That said, DH's circle of friends growing up was slightly more diverse than mine was; if adjusted to account for France's far more homogeneous population, he had a Benetton ad life compared to mine. Which of course could have been a result of cross-racial bonding over soccer. . . .

Originally Posted by barose

Interesting! Because when I speak of a European (or any other nationality) I know, I usually say, "French woman" English man", "Dutch child" NOT "white" or "black" no matter what color their skin is.

And that's just the way that DH's family thinks. Funny story, slightly OT, but I'll share: DH's conversation with his (86 year old, hard-of-hearing, slightly senile) grandmother upon her seeing hospital pics of the baby and us went something like a cross-cultural Abbot & Costello "Who's on First":

GM: She's very tan! [speaking of me] Did you all go to the beach? [it was December, BTW]
DH: Well, she's African-American.
GM: Yes, American.
DH: African-American. Her ancestors are from Africa.
GM: But you said she was American.
DH: She is, but her family is from Africa.
GM: She's African?
DH: No, she's American. A Black American.

[extended exchange about who's on first, what's American]

Finally --

DH (a bit frustrated) : Her family is from Madagascar. (Which is true, but about 200 year-old news).
GM: Aaah! OK, she's Malagasy!
DH: Yeah, sort of . . . .

Apparently "African-American" doesn't translate well without reference to a specific African country of origin. And "Black" doesn't translate at all.