Moxa?

[mom2tillie]

Does anyone have any personal anecdotes to relate regarding the use of moxibustion to turn a breech baby?

I am 33 weeks along on Friday and I have read that the best time to do it is between 33-35 weeks. I have made an appointment with a local acupuncturist who is going to show me how to do it and give me moxa sticks.

Also, what should I expect to pay for that?

Thank you.

[pamamidwife]

I have read that the success rate for turning breech babies with moxabustion is around 70-80% in controlled studies.

Have you seen breechbabies.com?

[Robinna]

I started it too late. I did get a lot of movement from babe but no flip. It can take 6 sessions, my acu said skip a day in between sessions, so you could need a couple of weeks. I paid $80/session, private (in home) clinic, and I'm in a major centre in Ontario.

Warning - if you're doing it at home - makes the house TOTALLY smell like pot, so you might want to warn the neighbours if they're easily alarmed.

[Black Orchid]

I didn't have a breech babe, but my DD2 got stuck under my ribs on the right side alot. Acup used moxa every week and it always got her to move.

Sending turning vibes to you!

[mendomidwife]

There is an article on turning breech babies in the last issue of Midwifery Today - they discuss and show Moxa technique.

Carla

[mrflowers]

My son was breech at 36 weeks, so I went in and got a lot of craniosacral work and moxa. This lady was fantastic; she spent three hours doing body-work with me, and teaching my friend how to do the moxa on me, and only charged $75. She gave me a box of moxa sticks, and either my husband or a girlfriend would do the moxa on me. By week 37, he had turned.

[mom2tillie]

Thank You for your replies. I am going to try it.

Is the smoke from the moxa harmful?
It also sounds like this isn't something I can do myself, there is no one else. Will I be able to do this by myself?

My midwife did a cranial sacral adjustment last night and nothing seemed to happen at all, she said the moxa couldn't hurt. I have looked at several sites regarding turning breech babies and I am trying all that I can. It is difficult to find time for some of these techniques because I work full time, my husband is deployed to Iraq, and I have an 18 mo daughter to care for.

This baby is actually standing or squatting in my belly, I feel a foot on either side of my low abdomen. My midwife had never seen (or felt) anything like this before. I am so worried that I have spent all this time, energy, and money to avoid a c-section and it is all for naught. I will be devastated if I have to have another c-section. It actually keeps me up at night thinking about it.

I has said that I would never go through another ECV... I really don't want to do that again but I am afraid to deliver breech since I will likely not have any support in that choice.

All of your help is appreciated.

[Robinna]

I had 4 unsuccessful ECV attempts with dd and have to say, I'd do it 100 times over to avoid another surgical birth. With a footling your vag delivery risks are a bit higher than with frank/complete but nobody knows by how much. Have you seen a chiro? Webster technique has a good success rate, it loosens up the ligaments & tendons around your uterus so for sure the baby has room to turn.

But please please remember - the baby's position is up to the BABY. You can do all kinds of things to encourage him to turn but ultimately, he's going to do what he's going to do and he may have a reason to be in that position. I found, when I was panicked with my persistent breech babe at the end of my 2nd pregnancy and was struggling to find caregivers, that I kept forgetting there was a person in there with her own priorities. I had a lot of unresolved issues from my previous pp period and a lot of fear of going through ppd again and to this day I believe that my dd was keeping her head close to my heart to offer me comfort. I just wish I could have given her the birth she deserved.

[blissful_maia]

At 33 weeks you have plenty of time to try all sorts of different methods, good for you for being pro-active! I have personally seen moxibustion turn a breech babe at around 36 weeks probably 2 or 3 times, and baby stayed head down. There is also a myriad of other things you could be doing, I suggest checking out www.breechbabies.com also!

[mom2tillie]

Thanks Robinna, I feel like a selfish pig but I am having a hell of a time accepting the fact I may never be able to birth naturally... it's something I need to be prepared for but I just can't stomach it. I really wanted a big family and a second cesarean limits our family's growth potential dramatically not to mention making me feel broken.

I am having a hard time enjoying the end of this pregnancy even though I know I will enjoy my son as I do my daughter. I wish I could focus more on the positive. I feel like my negative outlook is not helping baby boy move.

I feel sick when I think about the ECV, it was so uncomfortable for me and I am sure it was also for my daughter. I also feel sick when I think of the surgery, pulling on my insides... but the pain of contractions doesn't sicken me. I am so afraid now, and I was so excited a few short weeks ago. With only 3% of all pregnancies being breech, how is that this would happen to me 2/2? My pelvis is adequate, my uterus is normal, my health is good, amniotic fluid level normal... I can't bear the thought that this will be my last pregnancy, birth, baby.... but I can't not think about now either.

Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

I am going to breechbabies.com now.

[blissful_maia]

Originally Posted by mom2tillie

...I am having a hell of a time accepting the fact I may never be able to birth naturally... it's something I need to be prepared for but I just can't stomach it. I really wanted a big family and a second cesarean limits our family's growth potential dramatically not to mention making me feel broken.

[Robinna]

Originally Posted by mom2tillie

Thanks Robinna, I feel like a selfish pig but I am having a hell of a time accepting the fact I may never be able to birth naturally... it's something I need to be prepared for but I just can't stomach it. I really wanted a big family and a second cesarean limits our family's growth potential dramatically not to mention making me feel broken.

I am having a hard time enjoying the end of this pregnancy even though I know I will enjoy my son as I do my daughter. I wish I could focus more on the positive. I feel like my negative outlook is not helping baby boy move.

I feel sick when I think about the ECV, it was so uncomfortable for me and I am sure it was also for my daughter. I also feel sick when I think of the surgery, pulling on my insides... but the pain of contractions doesn't sicken me. I am so afraid now, and I was so excited a few short weeks ago. With only 3% of all pregnancies being breech, how is that this would happen to me 2/2? My pelvis is adequate, my uterus is normal, my health is good, amniotic fluid level normal... I can't bear the thought that this will be my last pregnancy, birth, baby.... but I can't not think about now either.

Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

I am going to breechbabies.com now.

Oh sweetie I'm in tears. I know so intimately how this feels. There is nothing wrong with you. You haven't DONE anything wrong, this is just something that some babies choose, and it's NORMAL. What's not normal is that we get bullied into surgery for it because so many caregivers deliberately failed to use and pass on their skills for catching breeches, using one faulty study as an excuse to do so.

I know you're footling rather than frank and that's going to change your own comfort/discomfort level in terms of what you feel safe doing. To my knowledge there aren't any studies specifically about footling safety, just anecdote and caregiver habit that hold that you have increased prolapse risk and possibly higher entrapment risk because you might feel pushy if a foot is coming before you're completely dialated. And having a knowledgable caregiver vs. forced UC to get a vag delivery can be a deal breaker for lots of mamas, too. have you asked your caregiver about catching?

Aw hon. Hang in there.

love Robin

[heathenmom]

I'm not a birth professional, but I did use moxa (and Webster and a dozen other things) to turn my breech baby. My first moxa/acu session ($80@) was after 36 weeks; the acupuncturist gave me a box of moxa sticks, but tbh I didn't use them (wasn't because I couldn't do it by myself ... it's really easy ... I was just lazy ). The 2nd was at 40+ weeks. I had a Webster adjustment 2-3x/week starting at 36 weeks or so. I also used homeopathic Pulsatilla 30x before each moxa/acu session and before several of the chiro sessions. Oh, and I had 2 scheduled ECV's (one called off because dd had flipped vertex -- she flipped back; the other failed).

Who knows which of these things did the trick for me ... maybe the combination of all of them? All I know is, she was PERSISTENT breech. My 2nd ECV at 40w4d, they left her transverse and basically forced my hand -- I reluctantly scheduled a c/s for 41w4d. At 41w, she flipped, I went into labor, and u/c'd a 10 lb. vertex baby.

The moral of my story:
* Try EVERYTHING that you can. IMHO, the Webster is probably what helped me the most -- gave that big baby *room* to flip!
* Don't give up! Even big, late babies can flip in labor!

Hugs ... I'm hoping for the best for you!

[mom2tillie]

Today is better, the lump in my throat is gone at least for now.
I really appreciate your replies and advice.

I did the moxa treatment yesterday and I will continue nightly for 5 days straight, wait a few and repeat if necessary. She only charged me $40 and I can do the rest by myself. I also scheduled an appointment with a certified Webster chiro for Monday and he only charges $30 per session after the initial fee of $60 (+$30). I am not telling my hubby about all of these charges. I have to try everything possible. I am also doing the inversion at home and *trying* to relax. My midwife is bringing homeopathic pulsatilla to our next prenatal.
I would feel 10x better if he would atleast move into a frank or complete breech rather than a double footling. If it comes to c-section or huge episiotomy or ECV, I will try the ECV but I am hoping that won't be necessary.

[catters]

I completely feel for you. I was so angry at myself, even a little at the baby because he was so persistently breech. I was so sad that all my options (I felt) had been taken from me and that I'd have to have a section, considering I had been planning a completely natural birth from the get go. Breech was such a fear for me too, it was like a self fulfilling prophecy.

I tried everything to turn my breech baby, including moxa and hundreds of dollars at the chiropractor for Webster (3x a week for 7.5 weeks). He never flipped. Ever. The professionals who administered these to me were of course shocked that their procedures didn't work and figured that it was a problem with my uterus (which, of course no one could find a problem there either).
My thoughts on all of this are: some babies just don't turn. Most babies do, which is why chiropractors and moxa, etc. can site such high stats regarding the success rate of their procedures. At this point, knowing I did everything right to get my baby in the proper position from the time I knew I was pregnant to the time he was born, I think that a baby will lie the way a baby wants to lie in the womb. I hate to sound like a downer, but that's how I feel. No doubt though, if baby #2 (God willing) is breech (please no) I'll still try everything just like before to get her/him to turn so I can VBAC.

Anyway, good luck. I hope your baby turns vertex for you.
But yes, if you do Moxa at home, it totally smells like pot, so be prepared!

[mom2tillie]

I am on day five of the moxa treatments, and I just had my first Webster appt. which I will be doing 3x a week. It's hard to stay positive about all of this but I am going to try everything I can, including version if it comes to that because if I do end up with another c-section it will be my last.

Thanks for your responses.

[mamato2boys]

good luck! My third was breech and I used moxibustion and Webster tech. 3x a week for 2 weeks. They were successful; I hope you are successful too!

[mom2tillie]

He turned!!!

Baby boy turned, I am thrilled.

Here's what I did:

MW did a cranial sacral adjustment
5 days of moxibustion
Webster treatment
Prayer!

I also did the knee-chest inversion nightly.

Had he persisted, I was going to continue the Webster 3x per week and the moxabustion 5 days consecutively, wait three and start over again and my MW was going to bring pulsatilla next week, and of course I would have continued the knee-chest position.

Thanks to all for advice, thoughts and prayers.

-Iris

[Robinna]

Oh I'm so happy to hear that!!! Happy birthing!
xo