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Honey, please go Boil water

post #1 of 46
Thread Starter 
I ran across this article today. It really resonates with me. I've been thinking about this a lot. My 3rd birth was the only one where I really had anyone "helping" me, and it was the longest and the hardest. (Okay, okay, it also was induced with nipple stimulation and the baby was BIG and posterior.) Still, I wonder...

Is the Participation of the Father at Birth Dangerous?
by Michel Odent, MD
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/fatherpart.asp
post #2 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumse View Post
I ran across this article today. It really resonates with me. I've been thinking about this a lot. My 3rd birth was the only one where I really had anyone "helping" me, and it was the longest and the hardest. (Okay, okay, it also was induced with nipple stimulation and the baby was BIG and posterior.) Still, I wonder...

Is the Participation of the Father at Birth Dangerous?
by Michel Odent, MD
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/fatherpart.asp
That article is what finally gave me "permission" to decide not to have dh when I give birth. Dh agreed with it entirely.

ETA: You see, before that, I'd felt that I'd do better without dh present, but all the other reading I'd done made such a big deal about how great it was that partners could now be at the birth and "be there" for the laboring woman.
post #3 of 46
I don't trust anything written by an MD, for one. I think if your partner is well studied and truly learns about the different stages of labor and what we go through, he can be a great help and comfort. I mean, really, who would you rather be between your legs, someone whose relationship with you will most likely be brief, or the father of your child, the one you have a committed and sexual relationship with. Communication is key. If you want hands off during labor, then you need to let it be known exactly what you want to take place. I feel the most comfortable having my husband with me because he has knowledge of the human body and how it works. He is also studying birth and everything that goes along with it, right along with me so we are both extremely prepared. He will play a very active role in the birth of our second child. I look forward to our relationship growing even closer with this experience. I recommend anyone who read the article and now has doubts about their partner's role to read, "Unassisted Childbirth: An Act of Love", regardless of whether you are going unassisted or not. Just my two cents...
post #4 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaJ2005 View Post
I don't trust anything written by an MD, for one.
Ah, but Michel Odent isn't just any MD.

I'm not sure how I feel about this article. I cannot say for sure, anyway, because I have not yet given birth. The article did make me think, though, and that is always good.

For me, I have the tendency to withdraw into myself when in extreme pain (my doctor believes I have endometriosis), or when I need to concentrate. I get distracted so easily, and I am very empathic...so it is, unfortunately, quite easy for me to take on someone else's fear or doubts.

This leads me to believe that I would do better, that I would birth better in complete solitude. But, this doesn't mean that I want to birth with no one around at all. No, I do feel that I will need my husband present, however, I do not believe that I want him watching me birth. I don't want his eyes critiquing every decision I make, I do not want to feel him judging (albeit innocently) my actions. I don't want to feel as if I must hold anything back just to care for him. I am a protector by nature, and I really think that if my husband were watching me give birth, I might do things differently than I would were I alone, simply to take care of him.

So...I think that I will buy a nice, million drawer changing table, and ask my husband to start putting it together when I go into labor. He never reads the instruction book, so that should take him a good day or two to finish.
post #5 of 46
That's funny about having him put the drawers together!! That's a good idea! I might do that too, just to keep DH occupied.
post #6 of 46
I wrote a giant, long, thoughtful response and MDC "Server too busy" ate it. ::::

To (try) to sum up how I feel about the article: While M. Odent may be posing some questions that are relevant for some, I find the article to be full of overgeneralized, anecdotal musings and hypotheses that are completely unsupported by real evidence and potentially damaging to individual couples. Bottom line, whose presence is welcome or unwelcome, helpful or unhelpful at a particular birth is specific to an individual woman and even to an individual birth. There is no reason why a near-stranger "motherly" midwife should be a less inhibiting attendant than a woman's dearest partner of many years. For me personally, everything in the article is completely wrong and even disparaging. In general, I have respect for M. Odent, but as an analysis of a partner's role in birth, this work is a piece of hogwash.

The right attendants, if any, are an individual matter and overgeneralization/theorizing why partner attendance is successful for some but unsuccessful for others should be left to individuals, not the subject of a totally unsupported and unsupportable collection of ramblings that reinforces aged stereotypes about the role of men in birth.

The article is 100% inapplicable to my partnership with my spouse and his integral participation as my main support during birth. Except that he did get a bad cold/flu about a week after dd was born - must have been my (our!) incredibly selfish desire for a homebirth turned UC turned hospital transfer where we had a completely natural birth and, goodness forbid, my partner was deeply involved in the process.
post #7 of 46
my husband is naturally quite anxious AND he grew up in a household where any weakness or illness was seen as an inconvenience and treated with anger.

over the last couple of weeks, i have not felt well (sickness or new pregnancy, we don't know). anyway, my normal "duties" haven't been preformed (cooking, cleaning, etc) and he's quite angry and frustrated.

but he feels bad, because he also knows that i can't help it that i feel bad and that standing up straight hurts really bad (very bad gas and bloating).

we've discussed this, and while i do want him around, i don't necessarily want him in my space.

i know that there are differences between feeling unwell and labor, but i think that there are likely also some similarities. and i also know that he's nervous about the whole thing anway (not UC< but birth).

so, i think he'd be happy to be able to read, watch movies, or whatever while i do my thing.
post #8 of 46
I *wanted* my DH through my last labor - he was my solid place as the WHIRLWIND 1.5 hour labor took me on the ride of my life. I was not more than 2cm max to start and from the first 4 min. ctx to baby out it was 1.5 hours. Talk about mind-blowing.

I could have done it alone, but I would not have wanted to be without my DH in this case. He knows his presence is optional (I though I'd want to be alone to have Gray), but I didn't find Dr. Odent's thoughts to be relevant for us.

He is a bit generalized (understatement ) so it's good to keep in mind in some cases it would be very relevant, but obviously not in all cases. As with anything i read, I take it with a grain of salt.
post #9 of 46
ITA with Romana!

My DH knows me better than anyone. Sometimes better than I know myself! He's my rock and extremely calming to me, a more high strung person, just in everyday life.

I wouldn't ever want to give birth without him by my side. He's the only person I feel I really need during labor. He's very comfortable with the process. Great at reading me and knowing what I need at any given time during labor. I do tend to "go to another planet" late in labor and he always quietly supports me until I need him again. If I get to a point that I start to fall to pieces and worry I can't do it, he's awesome at reminding that I can, I have, and I will. In no uncertain terms. He seems to understand when I'm handling it or when I need a push.

For us, the births are very much an intimate experience where there's a place and a role for each of us, just as there was in the conception. He always comes away from the experience with an overwhelming sense of love and awe. I wouldn't have it any other way!
post #10 of 46
I think there are just too many kinds of men, and of couples to make that kind of generalization. Some men can obviously handle birth wonderfully and be an asset to the situation, maybe some can't. Some may be grossed out, scared, or turned off by seeing the birth-- some may be fascinated and not at all sexually disturbed by it. For example, I don't think anything could gross my DH out. Seriously.

I don't see that over-generalizing men and relationships is helpful, especially with something as complex and individual as birth. For any couple that agrees with Odent, there will be another piping up with their story of birthing harmony. That said, perhaps it's good to lay this out there: the idea that for some couples, it would be better for the man to be more in the background and less involved. That validation could be useful, as there's such a cultural push towards total fatherly involvement, it might let some men/couples admit that they're not comfortable, say, cutting the cord, catching the baby, coaching, etc-- to examine and express those thoughts beforehand and not suppress them.
post #11 of 46
I personally want my DH there because he knows my moods better than anyone and I feel free to express them in front of him more than anyone else in my life. I feel totally free around him. Whereas I actually might clam up around my own mother.
post #12 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleyMum View Post
I think there are just too many kinds of men, and of couples to make that kind of generalization. Some men can obviously handle birth wonderfully and be an asset to the situation, maybe some can't. Some may be grossed out, scared, or turned off by seeing the birth-- some may be fascinated and not at all sexually disturbed by it. For example, I don't think anything could gross my DH out. Seriously.

I don't see that over-generalizing men and relationships is helpful, especially with something as complex and individual as birth. For any couple that agrees with Odent, there will be another piping up with their story of birthing harmony. That said, perhaps it's good to lay this out there: the idea that for some couples, it would be better for the man to be more in the background and less involved. That validation could be useful, as there's such a cultural push towards total fatherly involvement, it might let some men/couples admit that they're not comfortable, say, cutting the cord, catching the baby, coaching, etc-- to examine and express those thoughts beforehand and not suppress them.
ITA ITA ITA!!
post #13 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleyMum View Post
I think there are just too many kinds of men, and of couples to make that kind of generalization. Some men can obviously handle birth wonderfully and be an asset to the situation, maybe some can't. Some may be grossed out, scared, or turned off by seeing the birth-- some may be fascinated and not at all sexually disturbed by it. For example, I don't think anything could gross my DH out. Seriously.

I don't see that over-generalizing men and relationships is helpful, especially with something as complex and individual as birth. For any couple that agrees with Odent, there will be another piping up with their story of birthing harmony. That said, perhaps it's good to lay this out there: the idea that for some couples, it would be better for the man to be more in the background and less involved. That validation could be useful, as there's such a cultural push towards total fatherly involvement, it might let some men/couples admit that they're not comfortable, say, cutting the cord, catching the baby, coaching, etc-- to examine and express those thoughts beforehand and not suppress them.
ITA. My dh is not a hindrance when I'm giving birth. His advice to new fathers is always that birth is all about the woman and his job is to make sure she has food, drinks, and is comfortable, without asking her, everything else just happens, and he can't help the actual birth, to even try would annoy the woman. I think it's good advice. My dh keeps his mouth shut and doesn't try to encourage me at all, which I appreciate. I hate that labor coaching crap we learned in Bradley: "You can do it!" "You're doing a great job!" STFU, I'm trying to concentrate! LOL. He just came and pushed on my pressure points on my lower back during contrax w/out saying anything, and took it well when I told him not to touch me. He pretty much didn't touch me or talk to me much at all until it was time for me to push in the pool. Then he was still silent and just braced his arms on the sides of the pool for me to hang onto while squatting. He was a very supportive piece of furniture, the perfect man for a labor partner. And he helped me out of the pool, which I don't think another woman would have been strong enough to do since I was holding the baby w/ both arms and he almost lifted me out. This was my 3rd birth I'm talking about. Ds1 was not his, so he wasn't there (I took Bradley for him, so dh thankfully never learned that coaching crap.) Ds2 was an awful hospital birth, and poor dh didn't know how to help me then, and I don't think he really could have, other than encouraging me to stay home, which I don't think ever occurred to him.
post #14 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaJ2005 View Post
I don't trust anything written by an MD, for one. I think if your partner is well studied and truly learns about the different stages of labor and what we go through, he can be a great help and comfort. I mean, really, who would you rather be between your legs...
no one.

And certainly not someone who I feel like comforting when I stub my toe.

Having dh around would hinder my birth--simply because I am concerned for his feelings.

I'm UCing because he has come to believe that I can handle a normal birth. I had been willing to compromise on having a midwife, but now I don't need to.
post #15 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by feminine_earth View Post
This leads me to believe that I would do better, that I would birth better in complete solitude. But, this doesn't mean that I want to birth with no one around at all. No, I do feel that I will need my husband present, however, I do not believe that I want him watching me birth. I don't want his eyes critiquing every decision I make, I do not want to feel him judging (albeit innocently) my actions. I don't want to feel as if I must hold anything back just to care for him. I am a protector by nature, and I really think that if my husband were watching me give birth, I might do things differently than I would were I alone, simply to take care of him.
:
Quote:
Originally Posted by feminine_earth View Post
So...I think that I will buy a nice, million drawer changing table, and ask my husband to start putting it together when I go into labor. He never reads the instruction book, so that should take him a good day or two to finish.
Our plan is for dh to play videogames while listening to his music with headphones. I'll have my laptop near me and, if I don't feel like walking afterwards with a newborn baby and a placenta in a bowl, will send him an instant message.
post #16 of 46
This said, in case of transfer dh is not allowed more than 2 feet from me and that only to fetch food and more water.
post #17 of 46
I am a big, big, huge fan of Odent. (Don't want to be in danger of understating it. ) He was the first researcher, as far as I know, to really begin considering the role of the primal in human birthing. More than anyone else, except those who owe a huge debt to him in the formation of their own philosophy of birth, he gets it.

I was at first disappointed with this article, though. Then I took a step back and realized that what he is doing is what he does so well in every other subject -- he asks questions. He says, these are the things we should be paying attention to and asking what they mean. He does that with everything he talks about. He's very clear on this point: "Our objective is not to provide answers but to analyze the many reasons why it is such a complex issue."

He writes,

Quote:
There are many sons of men: some can keep a low profile while their partner is in labor; others tend to behave like observers, or like guides, whereas others are much more like protectors. At the very time when the laboring woman needs to reduce the activity of her intellect (of her neocortex) and "to go to another planet" many men cannot stop being rational. Some look brave, but their release of high levels of adrenaline is contagious. [...] It is often during the third stage that many men have a sudden need for activity, at the very time when the mother should have nothing else to do than to look at her baby's eyes and to feel the contact with her baby's skin in a warm place. At this time any distraction tends to inhibit the release of oxytocin and therefore interferes with the delivery of the placenta.
Absolutely true, and for men who are like this, for the couple to ignore the possibility of this having an adverse effect on the process in the name of "husband-wife childbirth" as the ideal, I think is very, very foolish.

So these are valid issues. Odent doesn't take the questioning far enough, however. We need to also be asking: what is it that makes these men nervous? What is it that keeps them from entering a primal place? Would their behavior be different (just as the laboring woman's often is) if there were not observers? Why is the mother sometimes apparently self-conscious and distracted by her mate and not by clinical observers? What is it about the way men and women are conditioned to be with each other in various subsocieties that affects how they relate their sexual relationship to the birth process? Etc.

All of these answers are going to look different depending on what psychological and philosophical approach is taken to the birth, and what environment the birth occurs in. Obviously, looking at unassisted birth will tell us very different things than looking at midwife-attended or hospital birth. It's much harder, though, to become aware that there is a difference if you're looking at it from the outside, because firstly there are so relatively few undisturbed births compared to other births, and because in many of these there are no observers.

In our case, the less clinicized and more private the birth process, the more appropriate was my husband's behavior, and the more bonded we were by going through it together. Also, in our case, the more positively it affected our sexual relationship. I can't go into much detail because it's private (just like our sex life is) but suffice it to say that we were both in an altered state of consciousness. He was receptive to what I was releasing and therefore we were able to enter a very primal state together, as we do when having sex. It was partly due to that happening that it was such a peak experience for me.

A lot of UCs, though, are really not approached differently than a professionally-attended birth would be. In some, the husband is expected to act as doula or midwife. There is a great potential for disaster in having men take on a role that is not natural to them or to the birth process. That is what the article is trying to address, but unfortunately that message gets lost when people take it personally and misinterpret his questioning as a dogmatic judgment of their own birthing choices.
post #18 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
Having dh around would hinder my birth--simply because I am concerned for his feelings.
What about his feelings when he realizes he was completely left out during his child's birth and has attachment issues because of it? I can't imagine not having dh take part in such an amazing, life altering event - witnessing the product of our love for each other coming into this world. That's just me though... Good luck! I hope it all works out the way you want it to.
post #19 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
We need to also be asking: what is it that makes these men nervous? What is it that keeps them from entering a primal place? Would their behavior be different (just as the laboring woman's often is) if there were not observers? Why is the mother sometimes apparently self-conscious and distracted by her mate and not by clinical observers? What is it about the way men and women are conditioned to be with each other in various subsocieties that affects how they relate their sexual relationship to the birth process? Etc.
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post #20 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaJ2005 View Post
What about his feelings when he realizes he was completely left out during his child's birth and has attachment issues because of it? I can't imagine not having dh take part in such an amazing, life altering event - witnessing the product of our love for each other coming into this world. That's just me though... Good luck! I hope it all works out the way you want it to.
I'm also only 7 weeks pregnant. I'm more than willing to accept that our opinions could change in the next 8 months or so. But I'm too lazy to put that disclaimer in everything I write about my thoughts on the future.

Y'know, claiming attachment issues because of not being at an event that would be changed by his presence at the event feels a bit like the people who claim that fathers can't bond with babies unless they get to give the baby bottles.

He's still going to smell the baby fresh from the womb, rub vernix into her skin, wait for a few hours after his cord stops pulsing, boop her nose, let him grab his finger, etc, etc, etc. All those things that I'll be doing to bond with our child too. Because I'm not getting a free ride on attachment either even though the hormones'll make it easier (which makes it all the more important that nothing disrupts them).

I want to birth like a cat.

Then we can raise our child as a human.

Oh, and my dh doublechecks his opinions and beliefs on a daily, sometimes hourly basis. If he decides that he will regret not being there (and he's currently reading Sears's Father book--and Sears is a *major* father as birth partner supporter) he will let me know and we'll work through it. He's not the suffer in silence type to any stretch of the imagination.
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