Mothering › Forums › Archives › Birth Professional › Question for RNs in L&D/postpartum hospital wards
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Question for RNs in L&D/postpartum hospital wards  

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Are there any nurses here who work in L&D/postpartum in hospitals? How do you not get depressed/upset/annoyed/furious about the way pregnancy and birth and parenting are handled in our (western, medicalized) culture? I assume that if you are a member of MDC, you believe in natural birth, home birth, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, non-vaxing, non-circ'ing, attachment parenting, etc, so how do you deal with the ignorance, bullying, abuses, and so on of the medical system when it comes to pregnancy and birth? How do you mentally deal with the feelings of hopelessness and helplessness when you see parents making choices that go against AP?

I ask because I have the opportunity to begin my nursing career in the L&D/postpartum fields in the next few months. Since becoming a member of MDC and having my daughter, I've gotten more fed up and disappointed with the treatment of pregnancy as a disease. I am wondering if I will be able to deal with this conflict if I work in this field, or if I should just find a totally different field and save myself the turmoil.

How do you do it?
post #2 of 19
Quote:
How do you mentally deal with the feelings of hopelessness and helplessness when you see parents making choices that go against AP?
OK, I'll bite. Just because you believe in AP, that doesn't mean your patient does, and it is not your place to push your feeling on your patient. That's it in a nutshell. I've been a nurse for almost 18 years. RN, NP, now PhD. I've worked in a lot of different environments and seen just about everything. If you can't separate your personal beliefs from your practice than you should not go into nursing. You don't get to pick and choose your patients based on whether their beliefs match yours. On a daily basis your patients will make decisions that you do not agree with. It is your job to support them in their decision (or to make the best possible decision), not change their belief system to match yours.

I don't mean for my post to sound harsh, but your job as a nurse is to support and care for your patients even if they choose a lifestyle that you don't feel is appropriate. You will also find that as you gain more experience as a nurse you will begin to realize there are many more shades of grey in just about every situation. If you don't think you will be able to put your feelings aside for your patients then considering a different field is your best option.
post #3 of 19
That's what makes a great nurse. Likewise, if there was a nurse who had the opposite beliefs, she should still support a person's choice to attachment parent their child.

(Yeah... I'm not a nurse, but I'm nosy... heehee)
post #4 of 19
Can you clarify what you mean by "support" the patient? I can fully understand not pushing your own personal beliefs upon a patient, that is clear to me. How do you support a patient when they make a choice you clearly know to be not in the best interest of the baby?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kate3 View Post
OK, I'll bite. Just because you believe in AP, that doesn't mean your patient does, and it is not your place to push your feeling on your patient. That's it in a nutshell. I've been a nurse for almost 18 years. RN, NP, now PhD. I've worked in a lot of different environments and seen just about everything. If you can't separate your personal beliefs from your practice than you should not go into nursing. You don't get to pick and choose your patients based on whether their beliefs match yours. On a daily basis your patients will make decisions that you do not agree with. It is your job to support them in their decision (or to make the best possible decision), not change their belief system to match yours.

I don't mean for my post to sound harsh, but your job as a nurse is to support and care for your patients even if they choose a lifestyle that you don't feel is appropriate. You will also find that as you gain more experience as a nurse you will begin to realize there are many more shades of grey in just about every situation. If you don't think you will be able to put your feelings aside for your patients then considering a different field is your best option.
post #5 of 19
Quote:
Can you clarify what you mean by "support" the patient? I can fully understand not pushing your own personal beliefs upon a patient, that is clear to me. How do you support a patient when they make a choice you clearly know to be not in the best interest of the baby?
I'd be happy to. Give me a specific example of what you're thinking of and I'll tell you how I would handle it.
post #6 of 19
I work in a birth unit in a medium sized, very conservative rural hospital. I am working my way toward a CNM degree eventually. So, I agree with Kate3 for most situations. Also, I believe in educating as appropriate (for example, a mom wants to breastfeed than I will explain skin-to-skin before the birth to put the idea out there. It doesn't mean that when someone comes in and says they want an epidural immediately that I'm going to talk them out of it.) I also try to do the best I can for each mom I have. I try to make there experience the best I can. If someone wants natural childbirth I work very hard to help them with that (and usually they haven't taken any classes). Its just very individual.

There are times that I feel awful to be a part of whats happening because you know its ridiculous. At those times I just have to remember its not my birth and I know the mama is doing what she believes is best at the moment. Its very helpful to learn the thought process and medical culture of the hospital. Its good to see behind the scenes, learn how OBs think, etc. I believe it will make me a better midwife.
post #7 of 19
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your replies everyone.

I see your point kate3. And I think what you said is the cold hard truth, as difficult as it is for me to accept. I realize that this is a conflict I will have to work through, and am wondering HOW to do it. I am probably still very naive and inexperienced (in nursing as well as in life) so realizing I can't change the world is difficult to accept. This is probably a phase that will fade with maturity and experience, and hard emotional work, but I don't want to give up nursing just because I'm not there yet.

I never ask myself if I should not be a nurse, instead I ask myself "why does it bother me so much when people make choices I don't agree with, and what can I do IN MYSELF to change my reaction (NOT what can I do to change the person's choice)?". So basically I want to change my own thinking and cope with the conflict, instead of trying to change the patient. Don't all nurses struggle with SOME part of nursing?

Similarly, I've always been a strong believer in patient autonomy, and thus informed consent. So in cases where I see patients making choices that I don't agree with (and there are reasons I don't agree with them, for example choosing not to breastfeed leading to many negative outcomes), I think that perhaps they have not received ALL the information they may need. Or patients "consenting" to procedures, when they don't know all the risks involved. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to share information about alternatives, since as I've learned, most people only know about the mainstream way of doing things. Of course, like you mentioned, there is a lot of grey in this as well, and the line isn't clear.

Sigh.

So for example, how would you handle a patient who says she will only formula-feed from the beginning? Or a patient who bases this decision on myths about breastfeeding, or isn't aware of the negatives of FF? Where is the line about how much info you give?
post #8 of 19
Quote:
I just have to remember its not my birth and I know the mama is doing what she believes is best at the moment
This is so true. And this is really what I was getting at when I talked about supporting the patient's decisions. Also providing as much information as possible for each situation.
post #9 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by kate3 View Post
This is so true. And this is really what I was getting at when I talked about supporting the patient's decisions. Also providing as much information as possible for each situation.
Sorry to intrude, I'm not a nurse or birth professional either. But I did want to point out that there's a huge grey area between forcing your beliefs on someone and providing information that fits with your beliefs/ knowledge. When my oldest daughter was born the health nurse came to visit. She'd probably been warned against forcing her opinions so when she asked how long I was planning to breastfeed and I said "I don't know... 6 months?" all she said was to make sure that I used formula until 12 months. It's not that this was *wrong*, but I honestly didn't know that breastfeeding past 6 months was a true option - anyone I knew who had breastfed had only done it until 6 months. My point being that she could have provided MDC style information, without being overbearing, had she chosen to do so.

Erica
post #10 of 19
I think that the advice to just accept the patient's choice is a little shortsighted. Yes, women choose to birth in hospitals. Yet even women who would never consider an alternative are still bullied, frightened, manipulated, cut, etc.

So how do you deal with that? How do you deal with a doctor telling a woman she's "not progressing fast enough" and that if she doesn't "do better" in the next hour he'll section her?

Just bury your head in the sand and say, well, she chose this?
post #11 of 19
Quote:
So for example, how would you handle a patient who says she will only formula-feed from the beginning? Or a patient who bases this decision on myths about breastfeeding, or isn't aware of the negatives of FF? Where is the line about how much info you give?
This is an excellent example, and as an OB nurse, one you will rub up against over and over again. By the time the patient gets to the hospital they are usually pretty well set in their feeding decision. But that doesn't mean you can't do anything. You can certainly ask the patient if they have considered breastfeeding, review some of the benefits of breastfeeding, and offer to help them to latch, but if they firmly say no, you need to take them at their word. The last thing you want to do is make a tired, sore, new mom feel guilty or upset. This gets to the support part of my original post. If they have no interest in breastfeeding despite your offer of education/help, you need to find ways to assist them to bottle feed safely-how much to feed, how often to burp, signs of gas/formula intolerance/allergies, choking hazards, formula prep, etc. You can also work in some other types of "AP" stuff-babies like to be worn, sleep well with their parents, etc.

Does that make sense? It's kind of like making the best of a bad situation, which is something you do a lot of as a nurse.
post #12 of 19
Quote:
I think that the advice to just accept the patient's choice is a little shortsighted. Yes, women choose to birth in hospitals. Yet even women who would never consider an alternative are still bullied, frightened, manipulated, cut, etc.

So how do you deal with that? How do you deal with a doctor telling a woman she's "not progressing fast enough" and that if she doesn't "do better" in the next hour he'll section her?

Just bury your head in the sand and say, well, she chose this?
No you don't bury your head in the sand. That is unethical and unprofessional. You advocate for your patient, speak with the doc, help the patient ask appropriate questions and understand her options.
post #13 of 19
One thing the nurses at the hospital where I birthed did that was incredibly helpful was remind my husband and I, repeatedly, that we could refuse anything. They didn't contradict the doc's, they didn't necessarily provide information that contradicted the doctor's reccomendations, but they did let us know that *we* were in charge and it was always *our* decision.

I'm looking at starting nursing school some time soon myself, and considering L&D as an option, so I definitely understand where you're at right now. I've been going around and around in my head about where the line is between allowing people to make their own choices, and where my actions become *my* choice and my responsibility.

If a mom wants to do things that aren't AP or conducive towards natural birth, as long as she's been informed about what she's doing, it is HER choice. I can't make her choices for her, but I can try to help those choices turn out as well as possible (even if I don't think they're the best choices- that's irrelevant).

For myself, though, I draw the line at assisting with circ. I couldn't accept the moral or karmic repercussions of being involved in that to any degree. That's the deal breaker for me, and the one thing I can forsee leading me to chose a different area of work.
post #14 of 19
I'll tell you what one L&D nurse did for me, as one lone natural birthing mom in a sea of medicalized birth. I'm sure there wer many people coming in and out of the room, I vaguely remember a few of them, but this woman was the only I really noticed. She believed in birth. I was the *only* woman having a vaginal birth there that day, out of many births. I was in a long hard transition with no drugs.

I know the nurse generally is the one in most contact with the mom and the one to report progress and such to the doctor, if some nurse just popped in now and then and just told my doc yeah she's dilated 1cm in the past 3 hours, I'd have had problems. But she spent most of her time with me, even began her shift early to support me. She left briefly to see to her duties elsewhere, but she was barely needed amongst the medicalized births. She got close to me, touched me, spoke firmly and supportively, rubbed my back, rubbed tension out of my forehead, suggested positions to help get past the cervical lip left in the way. She believed in me, DH was loosing hope after a long labor, but she'd seen birth before, he hadn't, she really truly knew it was normal.

I think she cheered me on as much for me as for herself, she NEEDED to see a normal birth happen that day. But as strong as she was, I know she provides support in her way to medical birthing mothers also. She had a comforting air about her, and a wisdom, and a gentle but strong touch. That could encourage anyone in any situation.
post #15 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by prothyraia View Post
One thing the nurses at the hospital where I birthed did that was incredibly helpful was remind my husband and I, repeatedly, that we could refuse anything. They didn't contradict the doc's, they didn't necessarily provide information that contradicted the doctor's reccomendations, but they did let us know that *we* were in charge and it was always *our* decision.

I'm looking at starting nursing school some time soon myself, and considering L&D as an option, so I definitely understand where you're at right now. I've been going around and around in my head about where the line is between allowing people to make their own choices, and where my actions become *my* choice and my responsibility.

If a mom wants to do things that aren't AP or conducive towards natural birth, as long as she's been informed about what she's doing, it is HER choice. I can't make her choices for her, but I can try to help those choices turn out as well as possible (even if I don't think they're the best choices- that's irrelevant).

For myself, though, I draw the line at assisting with circ. I couldn't accept the moral or karmic repercussions of being involved in that to any degree. That's the deal breaker for me, and the one thing I can forsee leading me to chose a different area of work.
Amen to that. I'm taking pre-reqs for nursing school right now, and wonder about this very issue often. That is, the original post issue.

Assisting with circ is a deal-breaker for me, as well. I will not observe one, or be a part of one in any way, shape, or form. If this means no L&D, or mother-baby for me, so be it.
post #16 of 19
okay
I will bite. I am an l&d/pp RN with my main focus as l&d. I work in a hospital that is family practice docs mainly and a large latino population.
I have to say that I pick my battles. I was so black and white about breastfeeding. But I realize now that the education starts years before they get to me. I just hope that I can empower that woman who wants to bf her child. To help her realize her body works and she can feed her child....
I hate circs and there is an OB who also hates them. He tells his clients it completely unneccessary, yet still circs boys. He is the only one that I have heard speak out against circing. I have considered opting out of circs like some RN's opt out of terminations. I always "forget" to give that hep b. I hate vaccinations of the newborn unless mom is hep b positive. I think it's complete garbage.
The medicated birth, I hate it. That's when things hit the fan. I am there to support a woman and family. I have seen beautiful births, both completely natural and with epidurals. I am an epidural hater. But I hold back my words. I am not the nurse asking the doc to rupture, put in internals, get an epidural and foley catheter.
I don't just let them lay there. I am in the room, I am not a desk charter.
And for me things began to change when I experienced my first coded baby. who died. And the first termination I assisted with. Being an L&D RN is not all happy. It's hard to support the mom who is abrupting because she just did a bunch of meth. It's hard to hold that baby all night who is coming down and is fussy. Or the smoker babies. Yet another really bad pregnancy choice.
So maybe my point is I just try to support people the best I can and leave my judging behind. OR for later.
It's a learning experience. Oh the cosleeping thing, I hate not teaching safe cosleeping. I am supposed to say never under any circumstances let baby sleep with you. It kills me.
post #17 of 19
I keep joking that I'm going to have to change professions. It seems everyone is induced for everything under the sun these days and I find it irresponsible and maddening. But usually the patient doesn't know any better, and I supposed I can't fault them for that. So if I can be the one nurse that suggests breastfeeding, suggests not circing or occasionally suggests that the Hep B shot is ridiculous, then I guess that's what I'll be.
post #18 of 19
our induction protocol is now city wide. They have to have dates,amnio or ultrasound that proves 39 weeks gestation or have a medical indication. C-sections are they same way. It is helping baby outcomes. But now everyone is inducing at 39 weeks.
And in Febuary docs have to provide paperwork to schedule to prove this.
post #19 of 19
It is hard.

What is even more difficult to me is to defend some (or all) natural birth practices to mainstream, conservative types at work, and then to come here and defend or explain certain procedures and environments. Feels like I get it from both sides.

Some things that help me:

I am personally past birthing babies. I won't be having any more children, and my youngest is almost 10.

I worked for 5 years in an out of hospital birthing environment, an independent birth center, with a few home births here and there. I saw what went on, what sort of reasons people sought out that type of birth experience, and what sort of work we did for them.

Now I'm in the hospital. For a while I worked on the medical floor, and now have transferred to mother/baby (which is postpartum at our hospital).

Once they are at the hospital, very little I do will change what is going on. In the example of formula; if they are set on formula feeding, I can and do explore that a little; but honestly unless they are truly on the fence, anything I say at that point isn't really going to make a difference. Our hospital has a preadmission clinic, run by the lactation consultants. So they've already met with an LC before they even have the baby, and they discuss feeding preferences then. My moms have had 9 months to decide if they are going to breastfeed; after the birth is not the opportunity to make a difference in that.

So I teach them the proper way to feed an infant formula; how to hold the baby, how to do it in a way which minimizes the negative effects to the baby and gets the baby enough skin contact with mama, how to recognize any feeding issues, etc. That is how I support a formula feeding mom.

It *IS* all about picking battles. If I ranted and raved at every mom who didn't breastfeed, how would that help? If I gently and kindly discussed all the pros of breastfeeding and the cons of bottle feeding, at 2+ hours postpartum (when I get them), how many moms would find that a positive interaction with their nurse, and how many would find it disrespectful of me to continue to try to change their mind, even when they've explicitly stated they are formula feeding?

I have some pretty odd views and opinions on many things, and I want those wishes respected. So, I feel I must extend that to the mothers I care for. Safety is not a black and white issue. We say that homebirth is safer; but only in certain instances, and even those instances could be debated, even among the natural birth community. But even in the instance when perhaps it statistically would be safer for the mother or baby to have a hospital birth, would you support them being forced to have one? Me neither.

It comes down to choice. I think that once you spend any amount of time in the hospital, you will find that the vast, vast majority of moms WANT their birth managed. They WANT the interventions. And most of them are making as informed choices about that as the home birthing mamas are about their choices. I think in this age of internet, and in my own personal geographical area where there are 2 independent birth centers within 45 minutes from here, several homebirth midwives, and a couple of different hospital options, if a woman in my area really WANTS a certain type of birth, she can get it.

I whole heartedly support a woman's right to birth how she wishes. You want to have your baby at home, without an attendant present? Not what I would recommend, I personally don't think that is safe, but I totally support your right to do that. And I would defend your right to do that; I have defended your right to do that, in my state, and I do verbally whenever the subject comes up in discussion at work. Likewise, I cannot condemn a woman who schedules her elective section because of "logistics." Do I think an elective section is the safest way to birth a baby? Hell no. Would I ever recommend it? No. But I will defend a woman's right to be in control of her body and to chose her birth.

When you get into the hospital, you see so many shades of gray. Somedays I'm really frustrated by it all, and I think about transfering to the ICU (if I'm going to be in a totally medicalized environment, I might as well be in the most acute environment, right?). And then other days I just absolutely love it. Most day, I absolutely love it.

Because it's not all about me, or my agenda. I can't take these people out fo the hospital to the birth center--it's too late for that. What I can do is try to make sure they are confident and supported in their parenting. I try to help them be as thoughtful and considerate of their baby as possible, and I try to provide any information they need. If they ask for a parenting book recommendation, I always recommend Dr. Sears. If they ask about the "what to expect" books, I always tell them my opinion and make a different book recommendation. I feel like, for most people, the baby steps are all they find helpful.

Occasionally, though, you get someone who gives the indication that they did not enjoy the hosptial birthing environment. I can't turn back time, but I can casually mention the other birthing choices in town, for the next time they have a baby.

Urgh, long post. Sorry.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Birth Professional
This thread is locked  
Mothering › Forums › Archives › Birth Professional › Question for RNs in L&D/postpartum hospital wards