The difference between attachment parenting, and natural/consensual living.

[North_Of_60]

I commonly see things like non-vaxing/selectively vaxing, not-circing, and cloth diapering being referred to as components of attachment parenting, and I'm wondering why.

I have always thought that attachment parenting (ie, 'AP') was all about fostering a healthy attachment between child(ren) and parent(s). Things like a good birth experience and not being separated after birth, the closeness of breastfeeding and co-sleeping and babywearing, responding to your children when they cry, etc, are, in my mind, what creates a healthy attachment. Where do cloth diapers fit into this?

I always thought that things like vaccinating and circumcision fell under the consensual living category. Or at least what I think of as consensual living, because those are pretty big decisions to make on behalf of someone who is not capable of making them (in that they are not consenting). If she wants to be vaccinated when she's older, she can do it. Same with ear piercing - not my ears, not my decision. I'm not sure if consensual living is the appropriate term, but it makes sense to me.

And then of course natural living is what I think of when it comes to cloth diapers, organics, natural bath and body care, homeopathy, no/low birth interventions, etc.

Does anyone else look at things this way, or is 'AP' sort of becoming a catch-all phrase for all facets of AP/consensual/natural living?

[*Aimee*]

Nope! I look at it just like you do.

[Kessed]

I understand what you are saying.

I think that for me there are 2 components of AP. There is the attachment that you mentioned - and then there is 'reason' for that attachment. And, to me, that's respect. And that's where those other things can come into play.

My DD got a diaper rash in the first few hours of life from the disposable we put on her. (We had planned to use disposables until the mec was done and then switch to the service diapers) So, out of respect for her and her body, we switched to cloth and haven't gone back. I met a woman once at the library who, when I told her our story, looked at her 1 year old and then tld me that her child had had a constant diaper rash sisnce birth and did I maybe think that using cloth diapers would have avoided that? ....
ETA: Then I have a friend who switched to cloth diapers with her son who was 8 months. He went from having great skin to having a rash all the time. She was using the same service I was - so their diapers were great. Being an AP mom she switched back to disposables.

My DD didn't really like to be worn. She preferred to spend time on the floor with me sitting next to her. So out of respect for my DD - I'm one of the few AP moms I know who didn't wear my baby constantly. If I tried to wear her to sleep at home (out was a different story) she would cry and cry. If I swaddled her and put her in the swing - she would fall asleep in minutes on her own (for the first 5 months). So it didn't look very AP - but IME it was.

I don't think that vax'ing status has anything to do with either AP or consensual living... I think that's personal preference. But I do think that not circing is totally AP - but based on the respect side rather than the attachment side.

[Mama Poot]

I think there are some differences between the two, however there are many more similarities. I agree that things like vaccination and circumcision definitely fall under the CL category, yet those issues can also tie into attachment parenting because when they cause the child pain and harm, that interferes with good attachment. So someone who is a true "disciple" of AP would not take the risk of doing those things to their child.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by Kessed

Then I have a friend who switched to cloth diapers with her son who was 8 months. He went from having great skin to having a rash all the time. She was using the same service I was - so their diapers were great. Being an AP mom she switched back to disposables.

See, this is what confuses me. It has nothing to do with the diaper, but what's best for your child. So saying cloth diapers are AP is a misnomer, as in the case of you and your friend (cloth being ideal for you, but not for her). So in the case of using AP as a label, meeting your child's needs is a component of attachment parenting, whether that be with a cloth diaper or a disposable one.

Originally Posted by Mama Poot

I think there are some differences between the two, however there are many more similarities. I agree that things like vaccination and circumcision definitely fall under the CL category, yet those issues can also tie into attachment parenting because when they cause the child pain and harm, that interferes with good attachment. So someone who is a true "disciple" of AP would not take the risk of doing those things to their child.

Oh, I definitely think there is some overlapping.

[Twocoolboys]

I actually just did some research on this topic. Holistic Parenting is the broader term that covers attachment parenting, cloth diapering, homeschooling, non-vax, etc. etc. etc.

http://www.holisticmoms.org/?gclid=C...FROYQAodRE48Hw

I think people often confuse attachment parenting with holistic parenting.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by Twocoolboys

I actually just did some research on this topic. Holistic Parenting is the broader term that covers attachment parenting, cloth diapering, homeschooling, non-vax, etc. etc. etc.

http://www.holisticmoms.org/?gclid=C...FROYQAodRE48Hw

I think people often confuse attachment parenting with holistic parenting.

I like that - holistic parenting. I'm going to use that from now on.

[flapjack]

There was a great article in the winter Juno about limbic imprinting- that 75% of babies born have traumatic births, and the events that immediately follow can generally only add to the trauma, and that this memory stays with you. That's the justification for keeping homebirth on the list, and I think routine infant circ is obscene.
I don't use the term AP for what I do, because I don't have a goal of creating attachment. I want to create secure, loving, well-rounded children who feel that the world is a wonderful place to be, and I cuddle them lots and breastfeed them because it's fun and easier than the alternatives

[ann_of_loxley]

I have to admit that I do look at those things and throw them all together in the 'AP' box. (though I like this term 'holistic parenting' - think I may chuck those all together in the same box instead hehe) Mostly because you will find that those who are 'AP', more often than not, also feel strongly about those things as well. Its slightly steriotypical though but I do think they are things that many people just 'assume' if someone is 'AP' or labels themselves that way. That is - if you told me you were AP and had a son I would also then assume that you didnt circ and probably dont vax either and used cloth nappies. Though I also realise, being the parent that I am too, that you can be totally 'AP' and vax and use disposable nappies for example! lol... But then I think that maybe this is where a lot of people can get confused about 'AP' that arnt AP - because they see it as a list of things you must check off to be 'AP' when really its not about doing X, Y and Z to be 'AP' is why you do X, Y, and Z if when you listen to your child thats what works best for your family. If any of that makes sense!

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Mama Poot

So someone who is a true "disciple" of AP would not take the risk of doing those things to their child.

I totally agree with you that vaccination and circumcision can be harmful to attachment. But I think it's a little severe to say that no true disciple of AP would ever vaccinate or circumcise. We all enter parenting with different knowledge-bases.

For instance, when we had dd1 we still believed it was more risky to NOT vax than it was to vax. Also, if she'd been a boy, it's likely we would have gone along with circ if the doctors had recommended it.

Of course, now that we know more, we've totally quit vaxing (haven't since dd1 had her 4-month shots), and we'll certainly never circumcise if we ever have a son.

"Disciple" isn't the same as "expert."

[AngelBee]

: Interesting thread.

[delphiniumpansy]

I am a literal person and I take something like attachment parenting seriously. When there is an international organization like attachment parenting international, I defer to their definition of attachment parenting. I don't think it has anything to do with circumcision or vaccination. I do not want to turn this into a circ debate but I think there are plenty of families with strong attachments to their children who also formula feed, vax, circ, use cribs, etc. If you read about attachment parenting, it is not so much about how you do it but that you foster a strong attachment. Cosleeping is a suggestion. Nursing is a suggestion. They are not givens.

[gabysmom617]

I think the subject of circumcision kind of walks the border of both aspects of parenting, though. Many parents that circumcised and regreted it state they noticed a difference in the attachment of their baby boys before and after circumcision. They said that their child would no longer look at them, and some wouldn't nurse anymore. Some mom's report that it felt like their sons could no longer trust that anyone would respond to their cries of pain anymore after circumcision, and that level of attachment was, at least temporarily, affected. (Something like the lost of trust in a CIO baby)

But then some other report none of that happenned. I guess it depends on the baby.

[pigpokey]

I think I'm an empowered parent in many ways. Learning in others.

I do not associate vaccination choices with attachment, except that mothers open to empathy with a newborn will have a harder time doing injections. However, you can give your child some vaccines without causing them pain, if you have a cooperative doctor. I'm sure many (most?) would cause an immune reaction just fine across mucus membranes, and you could re-immunize if you didn't get a titer.

As to disposables, those of us willing to be in contact with our babies for much of the day would be more likely to be willing to change the diapers more frequently. That's the connection as far as I can see it. Disposables can be changed less often. (I always used disposables at night so I would only have to change poops, but I also co-sleep, and nursed on demand at night for as long as I could).

Turning a child over for amputation of a healthy body part is a mistake, and unfortunately it is one with broad consequences. We must remember that some of the consequences are not the mother's intent. Some mothers are so misinformed or naive that none of the consequences are their intent, even the change in appearance before and after mutilation. Some have never even seen an intact penis, including their own son's before the amputation, so I don't believe they can form the kind of intent some people can. A mother having a cesarean section may never change her son's diaper beforehand. (One of my friends whose son was 2 when mine was born asked to see his intact penis because she first changed her son's diaper after his circumcision.)

[flapjack]

That's sad, pigpokey, but you put it well. I just don't see that there is any way that failing to protect your child from unnecessary pain and trauma can be associated with attachment

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by flapjack

That's sad, pigpokey, but you put it well. I just don't see that there is any way that failing to protect your child from unnecessary pain and trauma can be associated with attachment

I definitely see how circumcision can damage attachment. It makes total sense to me.

But I'm still having a hard time with things like disposable diapers and organic foods. To me, feeding my daughter an organic avocado versus a conventional one won't improve our attachment, or make her anymore well adjusted and secure. Same with cloth diapers. She has a slight sensitivity to some disposable diaper brands, but ultimately, our decision to cloth diaper was more environmental then it was about her. I just as easily could have switched disposables before going to cloth. And same with organic/locally grown food. That's as much an environment and community support thing as much as it is a health thing. And natural bath and body care, too. I don't want her exposed to chemicals anymore then I want to put chemicals into the environment. Those things, for us, have pretty much nothing to do with raising a child who is well adjusted and secure in her environment. I know several people, even in my own family, who do not cloth diaper, do not shop organic, don't care about what chemicals are in shampoo, don't recycle, etc, yet have beautiful relationships with their children. And likewise, all the organic food and cloth diapers in the world won't help any secure attachment if you spank and CIO.

It's that line of thinking that makes it hard for me to see the connection between cloth diapers, organics, and attachment parenting. You know? Circumcision, I've come to think, is a whole different ball of wax. But diapers? I don't get it.

[limabean]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

Does anyone else look at things this way, or is 'AP' sort of becoming a catch-all phrase for all facets of AP/consensual/natural living?

I've seen threads here in which people are discussing things like cloth diapering and organic foods, and mistakenly label such things "AP," but in every thread that I can think of, someone piped up with something like, "Actually, those things are NFL, not technically AP."

So it seems that although there is still some confusion, for the most part people have it down and are passing the word along that the two terms should not be used interchangeably.

Maybe I should do a spin-off, but I've noticed "gentle birth" or "good birth experience" being brought up as an AP standard in a few threads recently -- I'm wondering, what exactly does that mean? Is it an anti-planned-c/s, anti-planned-induction stance? Because most of the friends I've known (and myself) who have had traumatic birth experiences were in emergency situations and did not have control over what happened. I think of AP parenting as doing as much as you can within your control to foster attachment, but obviously children will experience trauma beyond their parents' control at some point, and I don't think that negates their parents' AP intentions.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by limabean

Maybe I should do a spin-off, but I've noticed "gentle birth" or "good birth experience" being brought up as an AP standard in a few threads recently -- I'm wondering, what exactly does that mean? Is it an anti-planned-c/s, anti-planned-induction stance? Because most of the friends I've known (and myself) who have had traumatic birth experiences were in emergency situations and did not have control over what happened. I think of AP parenting as doing as much as you can within your control to foster attachment, but obviously children will experience trauma beyond their parents' control at some point, and I don't think that negates their parents' AP intentions.

You can start a spin off if you want, but I think that can definitely be discussed here.

For what it's worth, I tend to think of those things (a good/natural birth) as just one more thing that can help secure attachment, but I'm not hard on myself for my daughter not having a calm and natural birth. Most of it was out of my control, and I don't think my intent changed how she coped with her birth experience, so I placed much more emphasis on that aspect of mothering for when she was actually born. But that's not to say that epidurals, pitocin, and elective c-sections mean nothing as long you co-sleep once they're born. I think they can and do have a huge impact on our children, but I'm not going to beat myself up over something that I could do little to change, short of putting me or her in danger. I'll side with safety over happiness. You know?

[carabee]

I'm glad this thread has come up. I sometimes feel like I'm not as "AP" as others, when in fact I'm just not as into NFL. Oddly, it was the NFL that first introduced me to AP. I wanted to cloth diaper and babywear because all the stuff was so cute. After my DS was born we ended up doing sposies and he has some plastic toys and even a walker with batteries , but the important thing is that even when all the NFL practices fell away, the gentle parenting as still there. Once I stopped focusing on the material side I was able to see what I should truly be concentrating on. We do nurse and co-sleep and babywear, and I feel those things enhance our attachment, but they are not mandatory. I believe that the most important thing that I have gained from learning about AP is Gentle Discipline. To me that is the most important concept of AP.

[wannabe]

Isn't AP all about responsivesness (quickly and consistently responding to the child) rather than a laundry list, which is why co-sleeping isn't a requirement? In that sense it wouldn't be what the diaper was made of but how often you change it that made you more or less AP.

A hospitalisation for whooping cough would play havoc with your attachment, not to mention those painful IVs.