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What is the Jewish understanding of Salvation? - Page 2

post #21 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry View Post
As for the question re: the Jewish vision of heaven and/or hell.

I was taught as follows: the neshama (soul) goes back to Hashem (G-d) when the body dies. Hashem is the essence of goodness, justice, and everything pure. If the person was righteous, that proximity to G-d is paradise. If the person was evil, the soul's proximity to G-d is intensely hellish.

Hashem provides for the soul to be able to do "rectification" of itself. We do believe in "reincarnation" (for lack of a better English term) -- whereby the soul gets the opportunity to rectify itself again in this world.

That rectification can also be done in "Gehennom", as was said by pp.

Obviously noone knows the "exact" mechanism, but it has to do with the mitzvos and aveiros (sins) the neshama/person did in this world.

If Merpk or another Jewish mama wants to correct me/add on I'm always open, but that is how I was taught (when I became Torah-observant).

That's so interesting!
So in Judaism the only prerogative to get into Heaven is being righteous and following the commandments? Is being Jewish important or does everyone have a chance to go to heaven as long as their are good with God?
Disclaimer: I'm not asking this question so I can turn around and start pushing my own ideas and beliefs, I really am interested to know.
post #22 of 54
Jews don't live for a chance to go to heaven.
post #23 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird View Post
Jews don't live for a chance to go to heaven.
mmm, okay, this is not the type of short and dry answer I was hoping for, but I'll take it.
So, care to elaborate? Do they live for this life only?
ETA: don't they want to be with God when they die?
post #24 of 54
From what I understand, everyone has the chance. It's just that Jews have 613 commandments and gentiles have 7. This is VERY brief and not the best way of answering but I'm used to typing with two hands and one hand is currently holding a nursing baby, B"H.

Jews do want to be "with Hashem" (for lack of better phrasing) in the next world but that's NOT the main reason we do things in this world.
post #25 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraFR View Post
From what I understand, everyone has the chance. It's just that Jews have 613 commandments and gentiles have 7. This is VERY brief and not the best way of answering but I'm used to typing with two hands and one hand is currently holding a nursing baby, B"H.

Jews do want to be "with Hashem" (for lack of better phrasing) in the next world but that's NOT the main reason we do things in this world.
Thank you so much for clarifying! When you hands are free, I have more questions:
What is the Judaism's POV for those Jews who do not follow the 613 commandments? What if they basically just try to follow the 10 commandments given but not specifics like Kosher food? Is there a punishment or are the 10 commandments the most important ones? Sorry if I sound ignorant.
post #26 of 54
My understanding of the "heaven" thing is it's analogous to a ladder. The top of the ladder is, well, the highest place you can get ("high" being descriptive in a spiritual sense, not in a latitude/geographic sense). Everyone everyone everyone in the world, whatever religious belief, gets on the ladder. And every soul in the world ends up at the top of the ladder eventually. As Nic'berry said, if the soul isn't spiritually ready for the top of the ladder then it returns to this life (reincarnated) to fix whatever it can fix, so that the next time it's separated from a body, it'll hopefully be higher up on the ladder ... and if it's not at the top, well, it comes back again (reincarnated) etc., etc., etc.


Every person's place on the ladder is dependent on his or her own deeds. For Jews, the way up the ladder is through mitzvos. For others, they have their own way up the ladder.


But everyone goes up. It's just a question of how long it takes to get there.




I hard something similar, Nic, about the idea of gehennom/hell ... that for a soul so damaged as to be "evil," proximity to the One/G!d/UltimateGood would be torture/hell.




I heard something else once ... that in olam ha'bah you review your immediately preceding life ... and as much negativity and missed-potential that you had in your life, reviewing that negativity and seeing all the missed potential that you squandered, that's hell.






Jews don't do the "burning flames of hell" stuff. Not our shtick.
post #27 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
Thank you so much for clarifying! When you hands are free, I have more questions:
What is the Judaism's POV for those Jews who do not follow the 613 commandments? What if they basically just try to follow the 10 commandments given but not specifics like Kosher food? Is there a punishment or are the 10 commandments the most important ones? Sorry if I sound ignorant.
The Torah and its mitzvos are, for the Jewish people, the blueprint for life and the way we are destined and commanded to emulate and strive to be more "like" Hashem.

In certain cases (certain very specific behaviors/mitzvos) there are "punishments" -- spiritual "excision" from the community, etc.

However those behaviors are very specific and require the Oral Torah (Mishnah/Talmud) to understand properly, with the help of a qualified Torah scholar (rabbi) whose life is learning and studying Torah.

Many of the 613 mitzvos we cannot do properly in these days because we have no Bais HaMikdash (Temple) in Jerusalem. Those mitzvos include (but are not limited to) the korbanos (sacrifices) as well as aliya l'regel (going to Jerusalem for the 3 festivals -- Sukkos, Pesach, Shavuos).

Other mitzvos are not applicable to those who live outside Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) -- for example, this year (Jewish year) is the Shmitta year -- the 7th year -- in which Torah observant farmers in Israel do not work the land and there are many, many detailed rules about how fruit, vegetables, trees, and all growing things that grow in Israel are to be handled, eaten, and discarded.

Other mitzvos -- like kashrus, Shabbos, shatnez (the rules about clothing fiber mixtures) etc. are incumbent upon every single Jew. Are there "punishments" for not observing them? Not in this world that you can see. But in distancing yourself (general yourself here, not specific) by not doing them -- by eating nonkosher food, not observing Shabbos, etc. -- you are in essence distancing yourself from Hashem and your true purpose in life as a Jew. You are adding spiritual "calluses" so to speak -- to your neshama. You also remove yourself from the Jewish community by not doing mitzvos that would make you closer to klal Yisroel (the people of Israel) -- which then makes it even more difficult to do those mitzvos. It's an unfortunate cycle.

As Merpk explained, the "hellfires" thing is not our shtick. We as Jews are given a mission (this is the "chosen" thing) to bring kedusha (holiness) into the world by doing the mitzvos that Hashem gave us in the Torah. That is our purpose as Jews. When we bring kedusha down into the world, we bring out more of Hashem's Divine spark and in doing so bring ourselves and the world closer to the ultimate redemption ("geula"). I suppose that ultimately, that is our real view of the idea of "salvation."

Every time a Jew does a mitzva, that Jew brings more kedusha into the world and more of that divine spark. Every time a Jew goes against a mitzva or commits an aveira (sin), that neshama and the world gets a little farther from Hashem's essence. So that would be the "punishment."
post #28 of 54
Nicka explained it beautifully, but I wanted to add that it is hard to explain when every word demands additional explanation. For instance, "sin" as English speakers understand it is a Christian concept. The Jewish equivalent means more like "missing the mark". You won't go to "hell" because of "bad aim" - you just need to work on fixing it.

But really, Rabbis don't sermonize about the afterlife much. What's the point? No one really knows for sure what it's all about. The best we can do is metaphors. Instead, most teachers/Rabbis* spend countless hours going into excruciating detail about how to live this life: how and when to light Hannukah candles, whether it is permissible to put on handcream on Shabbat, what constitutes gossip, etc. The point is to sanctify this life (I recommend Kusher's book "To Life") not be good for the sake of the next one.

(This is a parody of Jewish laws: Imagine if there was a halacha for Christmas.http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/R...ther/xmas.html)

*In traditional/observant settings, that is. My personal experience of growing up in a Reform "Temple" was that the Rabbi spent a lot of time on current events and bestseller books. He would have been booed off his bima (lectern) if he actually discussed anything textual. Not that I don't fall asleep myself during classes on the intricacies of certain laws... especially if it's in Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic with commentaries written in Rashi script...
post #29 of 54
Thread Starter 
Nicka, that was a great explanation! Thank you.
Lookmommy, I also understand what you are saying having been raised in Reform Judaism myself.

I guess the reason I asked the question is that I never read the Bible until I became a Christian and I really never knew that salvation was even mentioned in the Old Testament, having never heard anything about it at all in the Jewish religion.

My understanding of Salvation is not related to death only, but also to life.
I don't buy the heaven and hell stuff either - partly due to my upbringing in Judaism I imagine.

Here is a site that explains salvation very well. http://www.godssalvation.org/overview/index.html
post #30 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post
My understanding of the "heaven" thing is it's analogous to a ladder. The top of the ladder is, well, the highest place you can get ("high" being descriptive in a spiritual sense, not in a latitude/geographic sense). Everyone everyone everyone in the world, whatever religious belief, gets on the ladder. And every soul in the world ends up at the top of the ladder eventually. As Nic'berry said, if the soul isn't spiritually ready for the top of the ladder then it returns to this life (reincarnated) to fix whatever it can fix, so that the next time it's separated from a body, it'll hopefully be higher up on the ladder ... and if it's not at the top, well, it comes back again (reincarnated) etc., etc., etc.


Every person's place on the ladder is dependent on his or her own deeds. For Jews, the way up the ladder is through mitzvos. For others, they have their own way up the ladder.


But everyone goes up. It's just a question of how long it takes to get there.




I hard something similar, Nic, about the idea of gehennom/hell ... that for a soul so damaged as to be "evil," proximity to the One/G!d/UltimateGood would be torture/hell.




I heard something else once ... that in olam ha'bah you review your immediately preceding life ... and as much negativity and missed-potential that you had in your life, reviewing that negativity and seeing all the missed potential that you squandered, that's hell.






Jews don't do the "burning flames of hell" stuff. Not our shtick.

Meprk, thank you very very much for your explanation. I find it fascinating and interesting. :-)
post #31 of 54
Nickarolaberry and LookMommy!
That was awesome, thank you so much for your explanation. Makes me understand more about Judaism thinking of afterlife and this life!

More questions!
Is there an overall view/belief about what happens to this world from Judaism POV? Is there a view about end of times, or what happens after Messiah comes?

(FYI: I promise, I will NOT bring up my own views of Messiah or the end of times).
post #32 of 54
Christianmomof3, I hope you are not mad that I completely budged in with all my questions, but the truth is the topic of salvation/heaven/afterlife from Judaism POV was always interesting to me, so your thread was a good place for me to ask.
post #33 of 54
Jane, sorry my answer was short I was trying to get off the computer.

And your first question (the one I responded right after) was so filled with questions about the chance to go to heaven, something we just don't dwell and focus on (at least none of the various denominations in my family and community). Thus my quick blurb.

I am happy the more articulate and knowledgeable women were able to make it more clear. I do want to apologize for being so short though.
post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird View Post
Jane, sorry my answer was short I was trying to get off the computer.

And your first question (the one I responded right after) was so filled with questions about the chance to go to heaven, something we just don't dwell and focus on (at least none of the various denominations in my family and community). Thus my quick blurb.

I am happy the more articulate and knowledgeable women were able to make it more clear. I do want to apologize for being so short though.
No worries! Your response actually made me ask more questions that otherwise I might have not thought to ask.
I guess I do think a lot about heaven and hell, I think partially because the closest people in my life: my mother and my grandmother are both dead now. I think about how they (both Jewish) lived in USSR and how they had no chance to follow religion especially Judaism. I guess, I'm worried about what awaited them in another life and I guess I'm a little too fixated on afterlife then I should be.
post #35 of 54
I can understand. I am perhaps overly fixated on it as well. I have lost most of my family now and I don't believe in an afterlife, as much as I wish I did I can't force myself to believe in one. So I tend to fixate on it too
post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
No worries! Your response actually made me ask more questions that otherwise I might have not thought to ask.
I guess I do think a lot about heaven and hell, I think partially because the closest people in my life: my mother and my grandmother are both dead now. I think about how they (both Jewish) lived in USSR and how they had no chance to follow religion especially Judaism. I guess, I'm worried about what awaited them in another life and I guess I'm a little too fixated on afterlife then I should be.
I really don't think I'm the best one to answer this question but let me at least attempt, and hope I can in some way add something. I think the situation is considered different in the example you gave (that of your grandmother and mother). The expectations, opportunities and knowledge are hard to compare between one person/situation and the next. That is one reason why we feel only Hashem can judge where someone belongs on the "ladder". I know of people in the USSR who risked their lives to do a "simple" mitzvah. How can I say that their "simple" mitzvah is greater than more of mine? (Note: We also don't know which mitzvah is "greater"). I also may not be the best one to ask as my DH was born and raised in the USSR.
post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
More questions!
Is there an overall view/belief about what happens to this world from Judaism POV? Is there a view about end of times, or what happens after Messiah comes?

(FYI: I promise, I will NOT bring up my own views of Messiah or the end of times).

Well, the Rambam (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon -- popularly known as Maimonides) writes extensively about Moshiach (Messiah), and techiyas hameisim (re-awakening of the dead) but it is extremely esoteric and difficult to understand without a thorough Torah background. He focuses on this in Moreh Nevuchim (Guide to the Perplexed) as well as Perek Helek (where he writes the 13 Attributes of Faith) but it is not for those ignorant of serious Torah learning (I include myself in that by the way).

I will try and find something succinct -- it may take me some time.
post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry View Post
Well, the Rambam (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon -- popularly known as Maimonides) writes extensively about Moshiach (Messiah), and techiyas hameisim (re-awakening of the dead) but it is extremely esoteric and difficult to understand without a thorough Torah background. He focuses on this in Moreh Nevuchim (Guide to the Perplexed) as well as Perek Helek (where he writes the 13 Attributes of Faith) but it is not for those ignorant of serious Torah learning (I include myself in that by the way).

I will try and find something succinct -- it may take me some time.

So it will probably be a foreign language for me?
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraFR View Post
I really don't think I'm the best one to answer this question but let me at least attempt, and hope I can in some way add something. I think the situation is considered different in the example you gave (that of your grandmother and mother). The expectations, opportunities and knowledge are hard to compare between one person/situation and the next. That is one reason why we feel only Hashem can judge where someone belongs on the "ladder". I know of people in the USSR who risked their lives to do a "simple" mitzvah. How can I say that their "simple" mitzvah is greater than more of mine? (Note: We also don't know which mitzvah is "greater"). I also may not be the best one to ask as my DH was born and raised in the USSR.
That brings me to a question: What exactly is the meaning of "mitzvah"? Does it just mean "good deed" or is it the specific deed that is in the Torah, such as a certain commandment?

Can I bring up an example and you can let me know if it's considered "mitzvah"? When we came to USA, my sister was working as a housekeeper in an Observant Jewish home. The owner of the house was the sweetest woman and she offered to throw my sister (who got married in USSR) a proper Jewish wedding. My sister agreed and she had a proper Jewish wedding with Rabbi and men were separate from women. But not only that, my sister was required to clean herself in the water, (not sure how this proceedure is called) to clean off her sins. Curiously, my sister got pregnant right after the wedding after 3 year of trying. Did this woman perform "mitzvah"?
post #40 of 54
By giving your sister a wedding you mean?

Is your sister Jewish?

I'm just trying to tease out the different points.



Sara, good answer!
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