Why Are People Against Elective C-Sections?? - Page 9

[Ironica]

Originally Posted by felix23

if a woman for some reason has personal issues with a vaginal birth she shouldn't be forced into that either.

Who forced her to get pregnant, though? Very, very few pregnancies occur without consent... so I don't understand why policies that make completely elective c-section more expensive are somehow "forcing" someone to do something.

[thismama]

But aren't homebirthers typically in the higher income brackets anyway?

[thismama]

Originally Posted by Ironica

Who forced her to get pregnant, though? Very, very few pregnancies occur without consent... so I don't understand why policies that make completely elective c-section more expensive are somehow "forcing" someone to do something.

Lots of women get pregnant accidentally. And lots of women want babies but don't want to be forced into one type of birth just because other women deem it 'best' for them, no matter how correct we may think we are.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by thismama

But aren't homebirthers typically in the higher income brackets anyway?

Yeah, like college students, and women having their 4th child with one income for the family, and my neighbor growing up who had her second homebirth while living in a house with no electricity or running water.

Yep, higher income brackets.

Seriously though, anecdotes aside, I don't mean rich like upper-middle class, I mean rich like movie star rich. The women who first got twilight sleep in the U.S. were the ones who could sail to Germany and live there until they went into labor and could afford to go to the high class clinics that offered the option. These are the women whose homebirths would cause homebirth to be an standard option.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by Ironica

Who forced her to get pregnant, though? Very, very few pregnancies occur without consent... so I don't understand why policies that make completely elective c-section more expensive are somehow "forcing" someone to do something.

Accidents happen. Abstinance is the only form of birth control that is 100% effective.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by thismama

Uh, could we then? Because I am well aware of the anecdotes. And women who hospital birth also have similar anecdotes. It is my understanding that homebirthers tend to be in a higher income bracket, statistically speaking, than other women.

I think the more education that gets out, the more homebirth is role modelled (yes partly by movie stars since they are the gods of this culture it would seem), the more women will gravitate toward homebirth. And eventually the powers that be will figure out that homebirth is actually cheaper and a wise thing to fund. I think things are trending that way.

eta - Which is why I think that, apart from the issue of basic human respect, it is a wise strategy to provide education and lobby for options for women who want to birth naturally, and/or at home. Attempted policing of women's behaviour just gets the 'boob nazi' type reputation solidified. Empowerment and options, not removal of women's choices about our bodies, is the solution here IMNSHO.

Natural birth will be better accepted by society if it is not forced, but is instead chosen. Women need to be treated like they are capable of making birth decisions for themselves, not be told that they have to give birth a certian way. More choices not fewer is the answer, IMO.

[applejuice]

It is not a good idea to stereo type people into class systems. People are individuals.

My mom had only a high school education and had 8 of 9 babes at home with one income. This was 1953-71. My mom is no Hollywood-type; as a matter of fact my five year experience here leads me to be quite confident that most members here at MDC would readily call her "white trash" since she grew up in a trailer during the Depression and War Era. My family is quite solidly middle class, so saying that only rich, Hollywood type women have had home births in the recent past is just wrong and narrow-minded.

I have met many like-minded people as an adult who were also born at home in the 1940-80s for various reasons, mostly that they were just intellectually curious and "enlightened" enough to try something like that.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Clearly the solution is for rich women to start having home births--then the insurance companies will cover those.

Sapphire, when exactly is this going to happen? I was born at home and I am now 54. My oldest child is 27 and my youngest is now 16.

There is an old thread on this very forum of celebrities who have had their children at home, and believe me, there are several from decades ago.

Dr. Eisenstein has been delivering babies at home as a practice for over 30 years.

Rich women have had babies at home for a while, but it is the power elite, the insurance companies, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and medical establishment that keeps homebirth a non-choice for pregnant women.

Tell me when this is going to happen so that I can mark my calendar.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by applejuice

It is not a good idea to stereo type people into class systems. People are individuals.

My mom had only a high school education and had 8 of 9 babes at home with one income. This was 1953-71. My mom is no Hollywood-type; as a matter of fact my five year experience here leads me to be quite confident that most members here at MDC would readily call her "white trash" since she grew up in a trailer during the Depression and War Era. My family is quite solidly middle class, so saying that only rich, Hollywood type women have had home births in the recent past is just wrong and narrow-minded.

I have met many like-minded people as an adult who were also born at home in the 1940-80s for various reasons, mostly that they were just intellectually curious and "enlightened" enough to try something like that.

Much of my childhood we lived in a small trailer. I don't think that we were "white trash", just poor. My mom was very intellectually curious and enlightened, but she just couldn't afford a homebirth and didn't want an unassisted birth. I think if it were changed so that homebirths were covered, more people would be having them. I have met several people who want one, but can't afford them.

[applejuice]

We must live in very different areas.

My Father is from Ohio, my mom from Boston. I am in CA.

This thread seems to be discussing the advantages of insuring maternity care.

One's history education should teach how health, life, and dental insurance and retirement plans became part of an employee package. During WWII, with federal wage and price freezes in place, employers needed to have a tool for attracting good employees and keeping them. Since no one could get a raise, insurance for the employee and the employee's family was offered. As time has gone on, these are now a regular part of any good employment, especially in the years when there was bracket creep in the income tax system - in which a person would get a raise only to be paying more taxes instead, negating the raise they just got.

As for other countries having maternity insurance as Canada, their c-sec rates are at the same rate as the U.S.; excessive c-secs are an attitude problem that the medical establishment has in believing in themselves too much and not enough in nature.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by felix23

Much of my childhood we lived in a small trailer. I don't think that we were "white trash", just poor. My mom was very intellectually curious and enlightened, but she just couldn't afford a homebirth and didn't want an unassisted birth. I think if it were changed so that homebirths were covered, more people would be having them. I have met several people who want one, but can't afford them.

My parent did 7 of the 9 of the births UC. We did not afford them either. It was a great education for me.

Do not miss my point. Why wait around for someone else to decide to "give" you maternity benefits? Just do it. Have a home birth if that is what you want and your health allows. The system cannot work for everyone, so one must make the system work for them. Period.

History is rarely made by well-behaved women. Go out and make history. No one is going to help you. I have already done my part. It is your turn.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by applejuice

My parent did 7 of the 9 of the births UC. We did not afford them either. It was a great education for me.

Do not miss my point. Why wait around for someone else to decide to "give" you maternity benefits? Just do it. Have a home birth if that is what you want and your health allows. The system cannot work for everyone, so one must make the system work for them. Period.

History is rarely made by well-behaved women. Go out and make history. No one is going to help you. I have already done my part. It is your turn.

So your solution is for all poor women to be forced into UC's regardless of whether or not they want them?

[applejuice]

Where did anyone say anything about forcing poor women to have UCs?

We are talking about choices. I am saying that if a woman truly wants something as a UC or homebirth, then she should be educated and do it, - not wait for someone else to do it for her, as in government, insurance companies, medical doctors, midwives and hospitals.

When my mom had her babes at home, there were virtually no midwives in CA. At least no CA trained midwives since the state had not given the proscribed exam for any one since the 1930s. It was not until the 1980s when USC opened the first operating midwifery school in decades that CA had certified midwives. But, there have always been granny DEMs.

Life is short. You have to grab the opportunity.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Where did anyone say anything about forcing poor women to have UCs?

We are talking about choices. I am saying that if a woman truly wants something as a UC or homebirth, then she should be educated and do it, - not wait for someone else to do it for her, as in government, insurance companies, medical doctors, midwives and hospitals.

When my mom had her babes at home, there were virtually no midwives in CA. At least no CA trained midwives since the state had not given the proscribed exam for any one since the 1930s. It was not until the 1980s when USC opened the first operating midwifery school in decades that CA had certified midwives. But, there have always been granny DEMs.

Life is short. You have to grab the opportunity.

Well, if all women have to pay for their own births out of pocket, then then their are going to be a great deal of poor women who are going to be forced to UC since they can't afford a dr, midwife, or hospital. My mother didn't know anyone who was experienced with a homebirth who was willing to assist for free and she wasn't comfortable with a UC, so she was forced to have a hospital birth. If the insurance companies would have paid, she would have had a homebirth, they didn't, so she couldn't.

[applejuice]

We all do what we can.

My mom was just weird.

[thismama]

Forced UC due to poverty is a scary, scary concept IMO. Already the US has too high an infant mortality rate. UC is only safe with good nutrition, no prohibitive health complications, and access to medical care quickly if needed. Finances should NEVER force a woman to UC in such a rich country as the US.

[hanno]

Originally Posted by applejuice

It is not a good idea to stereo type people into class systems. People are individuals.

My mom had only a high school education and had 8 of 9 babes at home with one income. This was 1953-71. My mom is no Hollywood-type; as a matter of fact my five year experience here leads me to be quite confident that most members here at MDC would readily call her "white trash" since she grew up in a trailer during the Depression and War Era. My family is quite solidly middle class, so saying that only rich, Hollywood type women have had home births in the recent past is just wrong and narrow-minded.

I have met many like-minded people as an adult who were also born at home in the 1940-80s for various reasons, mostly that they were just intellectually curious and "enlightened" enough to try something like that.

Applejuice, we're lucky to have you.


I like anecdotes. They are made of individuals and I'm much more interested in individuals than statistics.

I had a homebirth 9 months ago today in a one room basement apartment. My sister in law is about to have one anyday and she works at a daycare. Not so glamourous. My husband works at a factory and hers works at a brewery. We can influence people to consider homebirth as a valid and safe option by making it normal.

[rmzbm]

Originally Posted by thismama

Forced UC due to poverty is a scary, scary concept IMO. Already the US has too high an infant mortality rate. UC is only safe with good nutrition, no prohibitive health complications, and access to medical care quickly if needed. Finances should NEVER force a woman to UC in such a rich country as the US.

[Ironica]

Originally Posted by thismama

Lots of women get pregnant accidentally. And lots of women want babies but don't want to be forced into one type of birth just because other women deem it 'best' for them, no matter how correct we may think we are.

I guess some folks are of the opinion that parenthood is an absolute right. I'm not. Of course, there are also ways to have a child, even a child who is genetically yours, without being pregnant. And there are things that people can, if they choose to, do about an accidental pregnancy. I'd never FORCE someone to take such measures, but I won't pretend that they don't exist. Having sex is (normally) a choice. Birth control is a choice. What to do about an unplanned pregnancy is another choice. Frankly, I made all those choices before I ever lost my virginity, because I felt it was that important.

As for "accidents happen," that's very true; HALF the pregnancies in this country are unintended, even though the least effective NFP system has about a 78% effectiveness rate (so clearly, there's something greater at work here). That needs addressing too, but is beyond the scope of this thread.

But it doesn't seem to me that there's likely to be a huge intersection between women who are pregnant unintentionally and women who would demand a c-section for personal convenience, either.

There's also a whole lot of mistaking economic factors for command-and-control factors going on in this thread, as though somehow our economic system deprives people of free will. Clearly, (let's get anecdotal again) with the number of women on here who have done all kinds of amazing stuff to make it possible to afford a homebirth on a very tight budget, if something is very valuable to you, you'll get it. Making something expensive is NOT the same as making it illegal.

I don't think that every woman should have to pay out of pocket for every birth, but I also don't think I should have to pick up the tab for the increased cost of people having vanity c-sections. It's not just the cost of the surgery; it's the increased cost of health care for mom and baby for THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. If we had to pay out-of-pocket for our insurance premiums, it would be over $800/month for our family. We're lucky that my husband's company pays so generously (and they have a sliding scale, so that higher-income employees pay a larger share of their premiums), but millions of folks in this country have NO coverage because it's beyond their means. When coverage includes major abdominal surgery for whatever reason someone can come up with, it's no wonder why it's out of reach.

[hanno]

Originally Posted by Ironica

I don't think that every woman should have to pay out of pocket for every birth, but I also don't think I should have to pick up the tab for the increased cost of people having vanity c-sections. It's not just the cost of the surgery; it's the increased cost of health care for mom and baby for THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. If we had to pay out-of-pocket for our insurance premiums, it would be over $800/month for our family. We're lucky that my husband's company pays so generously (and they have a sliding scale, so that higher-income employees pay a larger share of their premiums), but millions of folks in this country have NO coverage because it's beyond their means. When coverage includes major abdominal surgery for whatever reason someone can come up with, it's no wonder why it's out of reach.

we finally have the term this thread so desperately needed!