Why Are People Against Elective C-Sections?? - Page 10

[felix23]

Originally Posted by Ironica

I guess some folks are of the opinion that parenthood is an absolute right. I'm not. Of course, there are also ways to have a child, even a child who is genetically yours, without being pregnant. And there are things that people can, if they choose to, do about an accidental pregnancy. I'd never FORCE someone to take such measures, but I won't pretend that they don't exist. Having sex is (normally) a choice. Birth control is a choice. What to do about an unplanned pregnancy is another choice. Frankly, I made all those choices before I ever lost my virginity, because I felt it was that important.

As for "accidents happen," that's very true; HALF the pregnancies in this country are unintended, even though the least effective NFP system has about a 78% effectiveness rate (so clearly, there's something greater at work here). That needs addressing too, but is beyond the scope of this thread.

But it doesn't seem to me that there's likely to be a huge intersection between women who are pregnant unintentionally and women who would demand a c-section for personal convenience, either.

There's also a whole lot of mistaking economic factors for command-and-control factors going on in this thread, as though somehow our economic system deprives people of free will. Clearly, (let's get anecdotal again) with the number of women on here who have done all kinds of amazing stuff to make it possible to afford a homebirth on a very tight budget, if something is very valuable to you, you'll get it. Making something expensive is NOT the same as making it illegal.

I don't think that every woman should have to pay out of pocket for every birth, but I also don't think I should have to pick up the tab for the increased cost of people having vanity c-sections. It's not just the cost of the surgery; it's the increased cost of health care for mom and baby for THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. If we had to pay out-of-pocket for our insurance premiums, it would be over $800/month for our family. We're lucky that my husband's company pays so generously (and they have a sliding scale, so that higher-income employees pay a larger share of their premiums), but millions of folks in this country have NO coverage because it's beyond their means. When coverage includes major abdominal surgery for whatever reason someone can come up with, it's no wonder why it's out of reach.

My mom wanted a homebirth pretty bad, they had NO extra money at all, none, she could find no one who would assist her at home free of charge, so her only options were have an unassisted birth which she wasn't comfortable with, or give birth at a hospital which was covered by their insurance. I don't buy the "if you want something bad enough you can get it" line. Sometimes no matter how much you want it, you can't always find away to get something for no money.

[georgia]

I have temporarily removed a number of posts for edits. In the meantime, please remember to avoid taking anything personally.

The B&B forum is filled with emotional discussions that can touch a nerve with you personally if you take them as such, even though they are not about you. Posts are often specific to someone's personal situation and personal opinion. The reality is the discussion is not about you or your family or your birth, so please do not take a post as critical of you personally or an attack of your POV.

If you believe someone has posted inappropriately, please do not respond on the board. Please utilize the Report function (red, black and white triangular button, bottom lower left hand corner of each post) or PM a moderator. The MDC User Agreement requires that we do this rather than potentially derail the thread.

I ask that everyone make an effort to to keep this thread on-topic and avoid making this personal. Any questions or comments, please PM me. Thanks!

[thismama]

Originally Posted by Ironica

I guess some folks are of the opinion that parenthood is an absolute right. I'm not.

I don't think it is anyone's right to say that someone cannot have children if they do not want to do things the way some group has decided is best or right. I see that argument used entirely too often around here as concerns birth and breastfeeding, that women should be forced to do things a certain way or else prohibited from having children, and I find that argument extremely distasteful and alarming.

Policing other women's bodies is a bad, bad road.

[georgia]

I forgot to also ask that we focus on the initial topic and spin any related topics off into their own threads for the sake of organization and moderator sanity . Thanks!

[karina5]

Originally Posted by hanno

we finally have the term this thread so desperately needed!

Which rarely exist, someone posted on that.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by karina5

Which rarely exist, someone posted on that.

Yes, most elective c-sections are done for medical reasons.

[rmzbm]

Vanity c-sections...I like that term, fitting. Much better than calling them elective. Thanks to whoever said it! (I forgot who. )

[rmzbm]

Originally Posted by thismama

I don't think it is anyone's right to say that someone cannot have children if they do not want to do things the way some group has decided is best or right. I see that argument used entirely too often around here as concerns birth and breastfeeding, that women should be forced to do things a certain way or else prohibited from having children, and I find that argument extremely distasteful and alarming.

Policing other women's bodies is a bad, bad road.

For the 632,952,492th time...:

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Sapphire, when exactly is this going to happen? I was born at home and I am now 54. My oldest child is 27 and my youngest is now 16.

There is an old thread on this very forum of celebrities who have had their children at home, and believe me, there are several from decades ago.

Dr. Eisenstein has been delivering babies at home as a practice for over 30 years.

Rich women have had babies at home for a while, but it is the power elite, the insurance companies, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and medical establishment that keeps homebirth a non-choice for pregnant women.

Tell me when this is going to happen so that I can mark my calendar.

After it becomes the popular "well of course I'll have a homebirth" choice for them and not "oh look how counterculture I'm being!" So, never. Sorry.

It would work if it happened, it's just never going to happen.

I was just postulating based on: rich women started using doctors--doctors became the accepted norm; rich women started getting drugs to knock them out--drugs became the accepted norm...

Now there have been some changes, like allowing the father in the delivery room, that haven't been first part of a huge fad among the elite, so there is hope, I just think it'd be faster if say like Prince Andrew's and Prince William's wives had homebirths and if the daughter of our next President had a homebirth.

[georgia]

Off topic posts removed. Thread returned. Please be cautious to remain on topic. Any questions or comments, please PM me. Thanks for your thoughtful participation and cooperation

[nikag]

I think that, in an ideal world, we should be able to count on our birth professionals to examine what went wrong and help us to avoid the same circumstances... but too many doctors view vaginal birth like it's some kind of mysterious voodoo that they can't *possibly* hope to understand, so there's no concept of avoiding the same circumstance next time.

I think this is somewhat of a consequence of the general view of pregnancy as something sacred, unpredictable, and somehow blessed. It is customary to adopt a hand’s off philosophy concerning pregnancy itself and ‘let nature take it’s course’. And yet, because it is also seen as a highly delicate process, mostly I’m sure because of society’s conventional views of the participants involved in the process – women and children – there is an aspect of urgency or hypersensitivity to any possible or perceived complication (real or imagined) – hence the exhaustive testing and screening. Then, when medical professionals do decide to step in (usually at the very slightest hint of a possible complication), they step in strong and feel justified beyond the reality of the situation. Not to mention the fact that the business of pregnancy and birth is highly profitable.

Another factor that contributes is the medical communities general lack of trust in the average person to take personal responsibility and play an active role in maintaining good health. We live in a society of people driven by self-service, impatience, indulgence, and convenience and the for the majority of people, those forces greatly influence their everyday choices from whether or not they practice safe sex, to what they decide to eat for dinner. The medical profession has turned into an institution that most people rely on to CORRECT rather than to PREVENT illness and injury and as time goes on, researchers begin to discover that a great many common ailments could have easily been prevented had the afflicted been informed enough, cared enough, been self-disciplined enough to make better daily choices. It is no surprise that doctors don’t trust people to make smart choices about their health and well being. And this is an attitude that unfortunately spills over into all aspects of healthcare – obstetrics and gynecology are no exception.

Docs have become so used to playing ‘catch up’ that preventative medicine is a foreign concept. They feel like they have to take over for their patients because their patients can’t possibly know what is in their own best interests – because in their experience, very few do.

For example, during my pregnancy I submitted to a 1hour glucose screening and ended up with a high result. I refused the 3-hour because I knew my doc couldn’t make a definitive diagnosis of gestational diabetes without that test and I wanted to be in control of my own treatment. She freaked out a little. I had to explain to her that even if she’d had a diagnosis right there in her hands, she would STILL have to TRUST ME to monitor my diet and check my glucose levels as those are the first recommendations for treatment. She couldn’t realistically come to my house and force feed me low to no carb meals. I had to do it myself. And I’d much rather honor the simple solution than have to pump myself full of synthetic insulin and resign myself to no-stress tests and other mostly asinine interventions. I didn't feel I could trust them not to overreact and take things too far - and I knew that a diagnosis would make them feel obligated to manage my pregnancy in a way I was not comfortable with.

When I was on the phone with an OB clinic nurse discussing the matter (she was actually just trying to literally guilt me into more testing) she kept repeating, “We’re just trying to properly care for your baby.” About an hour after I hung up the phone (after insisting that if my doc wanted me to do something different, then my doc could call me herself and plead her case), after I hung up the phone it occurred to me in a very epiphany sort of moment that they weren’t and have never been responsible for properly caring for my baby. I was and always would be. He resides in MY body. My OB expressed that she didn’t like the feeling of being ‘out of control’ when I told her she was going to have to trust me with my own diet and I realized, she never was in control and really, never would be. I have been carrying this child and will continue to carry this child until he is born. It isn’t in their hands. It’s in mine. This is something I had always known intuitively and I've always lived my life according to this intuitive understanding, but I'd never before been pushed enough to put into words.

And no one was going to convince me otherwise. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I gave up responsibility for this little life against my better judgement or gut instinct.

[annakiss]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned at all that truly elective cesarean is unethical for a doctor to perform. This argument shouldn't even be framed as a woman's choice. It goes against the Hippocratic Oath for a doc to do it. You know, "First do no harm," and all that: "To keep the good of the patient as the highest priority."

[nashvillemidwife]

But a doctor would have to actually believe they were actually doing harm, and for some reason they don't seem to have heard about the evidence.

[annakiss]

Originally Posted by nashvillemidwife

But a doctor would have to actually believe they were actually doing harm, and for some reason they don't seem to have heard about the evidence.

But doctors, the media, ACOG - they're all framing it as this mother's choice nonsense, which first of all, it isn't a true choice in almost all circumstances - and we're participating in that argument instead of saying, "hey, you shouldn't even be doing this, it's unethical based on your own research." We're letting these powerhouses frame the argument as our own fault, which it just isn't. It detracts from real issues.

[wombatclay]

It goes against the Hippocratic Oath for a doc to do it.

Keeping in mind that the oath is voluntary and that many many variations now exist...

Personally I find it difficult to dictate what a person should be "allowed" to do with their own body. However, I also feel like a person needs to be a well informed consumer. If a person has a body modification goal that falls outside the norm, many surgeons will ask that they complete a period of counseling/therapy to make sure they understand the risks, benefits, long term impact, etc of their decision. Since a pregnancy is generally going to take a few months anyway I can't see that a period of counseling would be an undue hardship before an elective c/s.

I'm not advocating a partisan "waiting period" or other partisan "educational" program. Mostly just a period of meeting with a therapist trained in women's health to make sure the woman has a realistic expectation of what her choices will mean for her and her children both immediately and in the long run. I realize the slippery slope this sort of thing is standing on, but it's one possible way of making sure the consumer is informed and prepared for the specific challenges presented by their options without trying to limit those options.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by annakiss

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned at all that truly elective cesarean is unethical for a doctor to perform. This argument shouldn't even be framed as a woman's choice. It goes against the Hippocratic Oath for a doc to do it. You know, "First do no harm," and all that: "To keep the good of the patient as the highest priority."

Maybe for some emotional reason it is in the best interest of the patient to have a c-section. Maybe would do more harm emotionally to force a mother into a vaginal birth that she didn't want. I think that a person's emotional well being is just as important as their medical one. I also think that if a really high risk mother that all the research shows would be better off birthing at a hospital, had personal reasons that they want to avoid a hospital birth but instead chose to UC, they should. I personally would not choose that, but I can understand why they are making that choice and will support them. As long as they have done their research and understand the risks, women should be allowed to birth as they wish.

[annakiss]

Originally Posted by felix23

Maybe for some emotional reason it is in the best interest of the patient to have a c-section. Maybe would do more harm emotionally to force a mother into a vaginal birth that she didn't want. I think that a person's emotional well being is just as important as their medical one. I also think that if a really high risk mother that all the research shows would be better off birthing at a hospital, had personal reasons that they want to avoid a hospital birth but instead chose to UC, they should. I personally would not choose that, but I can understand why they are making that choice and will support them. As long as they have done their research and understand the risks, women should be allowed to birth as they wish.

I would think that extraordinary emotional reasons may become medically-indicated.

I also can see the argument about body modification. There aren't many docs who will cut off my foot even with a pressing emotional reason, however. Plus, c/s involve two lives. While I think that as someone who is pro-choice I believe the mother's health trumps a baby's, does her desire to avoid pushing trump a baby's health?

I don't know the answer to that, to be honest.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by annakiss

I would think that extraordinary emotional reasons may become medically-indicated.

I also can see the argument about body modification. There aren't many docs who will cut off my foot even with a pressing emotional reason, however. Plus, c/s involve two lives. While I think that as someone who is pro-choice I believe the mother's health trumps a baby's, does her desire to avoid pushing trump a baby's health?

I don't know the answer to that, to be honest.

For personal reasons that I will not discuss here, I am choosing a repeat c-section. There is nothing medically wrong with me, it is just an emotional thing, that really, no one but me understands. I have spent the last two years going coming to this decision and I am finally content with this choice. Everyone else may think that I'm an idiot for doing this, but I know that I am making the right choice for me. Any birth involves two lives. Do you think that high risk women should be forced into a hospital birth? In a high risk situation does a woman's desire to avoid hospitals trump a baby's health?

[annakiss]

Right, but then your c/s is medically indicated, if not medically necessary, per se, so how does that even apply?

As for high risk women being forced into hospital births - no, I don't think they should be forced. But a high risk woman will have trouble finding a care provider outside of the hospital, so it's not exactly a choice because the burden is on her.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by annakiss

Right, but then your c/s is medically indicated, if not medically necessary, per se, so how does that even apply?

As for high risk women being forced into hospital births - no, I don't think they should be forced. But a high risk woman will have trouble finding a care provider outside of the hospital, so it's not exactly a choice because the burden is on her.

Most people would say that my c-section is not medically necessary. There is nothing physically that would prevent me from having a vaginal birth. I am choosing a c-section for emotional reasons. I've had people irl tell me that I shouldn't be allowed to choose a c-section for personal reasons, that the only reason a person should have a c-section is for medical reasons.