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Did Christians persecute the Jews? - Page 8

post #141 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty View Post
But again, this all goes back to history. All our history as Christians began at Jesus. So in some sense or another we are all inter-related, sure. But that does not make the basics of the Christian faith anti-semitic. And I am not speaking of just MY church, I am speaking from personal experience with MANY churches over the last 35 years of my life covering several different sects. As well as from my knowledge of scriptures that I have studied extensively. The scriptures are in no way anti-semitic, and that is the sole basis for my Christian beliefs. Church doctrines do differ from church to church, but I have also never come across that teaching within any of the many churches I have been a member of.

So again, I don't really understand what this thread is wanting from "me" as a Christian. To admit that the church teaches anti-semitic teachings? Because it that is what is being asked I will never do it, because it is simply untrue, from where I stand. Again, perhaps somewhere back in history, but not in any my experience. If you are asking that it has happened in the past, sure and it was horrid, but I can't change the past. All I can do is to change the future.

kidzplenty, just curious did you see this post? any thoughts?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...8&postcount=50
post #142 of 234
No, I had not seen that post (mostly because I usually stay out of these kinds of discussions). And I must say that I am highly offended that a Christian church could say, much less teach that to it's members. And at this very moment, I am very glad that I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Baptist church, if that is a fair representation of their beliefs and teachings.

My churches have always been along the lines of Charismatic and Pentecostal types, usually non-denominational, though the one I am currently a member of was an integration of a AA Baptist and a non-legalistic Pentecostal church. And I will restate, teachings like that would NEVER be allowed in my church. We have always been taught to have the up most respect of God's people, and by that meaning the Jews. Granted, we do hope for their conversion, and we do pray for them, as we would pray for anyone that is "lost", but we don't look down on them.

And we don't "blame" anyone for Jesus's death. I mean, really, if He had not died, we would not have the privilege of being saved. HE laid down His life, for us. The religious leaders at the time aided and instigated a riot that brought the fulfillment of the prophecies, but it was within His power to put a stop to it at any time. And the Roman rulers could have stopped it, and instead, gave permission for it. But His death was what just had to be. No one is "to blame".

And again, I do admit that persecution has happened, and even that it happened in the name of Christianity. Perhaps even historically, that "The Church" sanctioned it. But that still does not mean that the basics of the Christian faith nor the teachings of the church now are in any way anti-semitic.
post #143 of 234
if the "scriptures" aren't anti semetic, then why is it that when I read "Paul" (was it? It was so long ago) that he was TOTALLY anti-semetic. Is this not counted as "Scriptures"? Cause it totally was at the Catholic school I went to.

not being snarky, just askin

also, if xtians are "grafted to the vine" and all that...well does that mean that you consider yourself "Jews" or the "real jews" or that the "jews as we know them today were chosen to recieve the messiah, but then the christians are the ones that ACCEPTED the messiah in Jesus?

I'm still kind of really confused, cause xians acknowledge that there is a difference between xians and jews but it seems here that they are saying that they are the same thing?

again, just being confused and asking as politely as I can.
post #144 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by jul511riv View Post
if the "scriptures" aren't anti semitic, then why is it that when I read "Paul" (was it? It was so long ago) that he was TOTALLY anti-semitic. Is this not counted as "Scriptures"? Cause it totally was at the Catholic school I went to.
Without knowing exactly what scriptures you are referring to, I can not even begin to answer this. I have studied the Scriptures for years and even spent several years in a Bible college, and I have never heard of this, though I guess it may be out there. Perhaps it is in Catholic teachings? (Not trying to be snarky either, but I am guessing Catholic teachings are a bit different than Protestant teachings.) I have read the books of Paul many times, and they are very "Christian" in a sense and teaching of how to run churches and such, but I have never read anything anti-semitic.

Quote:
also, if xtians are "grafted to the vine" and all that...well does that mean that you consider yourself "Jews" or the "real Jews" or that the "Jews as we know them today were chosen to receive the messiah, but then the Christians are the ones that ACCEPTED the messiah in Jesus?

I'm still kind of really confused, cause xians acknowledge that there is a difference between xians and Jews but it seems here that they are saying that they are the same thing?

again, just being confused and asking as politely as I can.
OK (not offended at all), and I suppose that there are different view points, but this is how I explain it.

The seed of Abraham, to whom God revealed Himself and made a covenant with, is His People. This was pasted down through time and history. When Jesus was born on earth, the embodiment of God, it was with the purpose to restore fellowship with "His People" to himself, for sin had created a division between God and His people. When Jesus did this, He brought salvation (a restoration) to all that believed, FIRST to the Jew, then beyond. (Romans 1:16) Salvation through Jesus was brought to the Jews, and when they turned it away in unbelief, it was given to the Gentiles (Romans 11). The Vine (being Jesus, John 15), has pruned from it by the Father all those that do not believe. And we, the gentiles are grafted into the vine once we come to a belief. For we were not originally of the vine (being that we were not of the Jewish line).

So, I, being grafted into the Vine, have become a "spiritual Jew", or an "adopted Jew". And Jesus was the "Jewish Messiah" sent by the God of the Jews for His People, but has adopted us as His own as well because of our belief in Him. There is the same God, but most Jews do not accept Jesus as their Messiah, therefore, to my best explanation (not trying to offend anyone but trying to put this in words to best explain what I mean without stepping on anyones toes), our God is the same, but the Jewish faith is incomplete. (Truly, I am not trying to start something, but putting it into words is difficult, especially on a public debate type board.)

OK, I think I answered the questions, and I hope I have not offended anyone, this is just how I am wording it trying to get across what is in my mind the best way I can.
post #145 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty View Post

My churches have always been along the lines of Charismatic and Pentecostal types, usually non-denominational, though the one I am currently a member of was an integration of a AA Baptist and a non-legalistic Pentecostal church. And I will restate, teachings like that would NEVER be allowed in my church.
Unfortunately not all Pentecostal churches feel this way. Did you see this post?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=117

This church posting the sign (that m2'7 referred to above) IS a Pentecostal church. So, while your church may not feel that way. Obviously some of them do.
post #146 of 234
I know more than one Methodist bishop who teaches that praying for the conversion and attempting for the conversion of the Jews IS Anti-Semitic.

And Luther is the one who first "Protested" as in Protestant, also ragingly anti-Semitic.

Lemme see if I can find the link that merpk posted awhile back where mainly Paul talks about Jews in the NT. Not so complementary those quotes.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html

Much of the information in this essay has been extracted from the article[1] Removing Anti-Jewish Polemic from our Christian Lectionaries: A Proposal by Prof. Norman A. Beck[2], who is a New Testament scholar and Professor of Theology and Classical Languages at Texas Lutheran University. In his article, Prof. Beck deals with what he calls in some of his published books "… the specific texts identified as most problematic …", texts found in six of the 27 books that comprise the New Testament.

I checked these against http://www.blueletterbible.org/ And yep, these quotes do appear in the NT.

So it leaves me Are they all taken WILDLY out of context by a NT scholar?
post #147 of 234
As someone who used to take this topic lightly, I find it interesting to come back now and read these responses.

Christians have managed to crusade against pretty much every faith and spiritual belief since the beginning of Christianity's inception, and the millions killed and the bloodshed left in its wake is really, truly mind-boggling. Perhaps this is a danger of mixing church and state. When a religion that is based in peace, love, and tolerance is twisted around to suit the leaders' need for power, well, this is what happens, no?

It's interesting that so many people downplay what the Jews have experienced - and continue to experience - for thousands of years by comparing them to this, that, or the other category of persecuted peoples. The difference, to me, in all of this is that thousands of years worth of misinformation is still intact. The rumblings of anti-semitism - even if it's just a joke about money here or a crack about Israel there - are still alive and well, and thanks to this misinformation, the Jews have never felt safe and equal as a people since their persecution began. And some feel that, jeez, look at the pattern throughout history -- could it only be a matter of time before some crazed world leader, drunk on these lies and yearning for power, decides to exterminate a few million more?

So yes, many Christians persecuted the Jews, along with many other cultural and religious peoples who did not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. It's such a shame, really, because the teachings of Jesus are antithetical to such godless behavior.
post #148 of 234
post #149 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven View Post
Yes, we know that there are many different denominations. But historically, they all diverged from the Catholic church and then the East/West split of Orthodox/Catholic that DID espouse such views.
Christians on the board have been warned many, many times against explaining what another religion's teachings or scriptures "really" mean, particularly when they try to interpret Judaism. The same applies in reverse. Jewish posters are no more experts at what Christianity "really" teaches or what its scriptures actually mean, than Christians can speak with authority on what Jews truly believe.
We can agree on historical events, but please leave us to decide what we do or do not believe as part of our religion.
post #150 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
Christians on the board have been warned many, many times against explaining what another religion's teachings or scriptures "really" mean, particularly when they try to interpret Judaism. The same applies in reverse. Jewish posters are no more experts at what Christianity "really" teaches or what its scriptures actually mean, than Christians can speak with authority on what Jews truly believe.
We can agree on historical events, but please leave us to decide what we do or do not believe as part of our religion.
yes, but those of us who were raised in the church (yes, we are here), can speak with authority about what WE were taught in the church. and i can't recall that Jews were specifically singled out for conversion in any church that i went to, but ALL people who weren't christian were to be saved or they were going to hell.

and the first anti-semitic slur i ever heard came from my mom and we were charismatic/pentecostal, bible-believing and all that (they still are).
post #151 of 234
Non-mod note here - IMO Christians not only need to be aware of anti-Semitic teachings by Christians, they need to take an active stance against such teachings *in the name of Christianity.* This is similar to saying that even though some verses in Christian scripture support slavery, Christians as a whole need to recognize that slavery is wrong, it is sinful, and it treats other people as less than fully human. In the 21st Century, sure, virtually any Christian could see this, but in the 19th Century, and earlier, many Christians used Biblical texts to defend slavery.

Similarly, Christians need (IMO) to recognize and renounce anti-Semitic verses in the Christain Scriptures, take responsibility for these wrong and misguided teachings, be aware of the historical record of this issue, and renounce anti-Semitism in word and deed.
post #152 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
Christians on the board have been warned many, many times against explaining what another religion's teachings or scriptures "really" mean, particularly when they try to interpret Judaism. The same applies in reverse. Jewish posters are no more experts at what Christianity "really" teaches or what its scriptures actually mean, than Christians can speak with authority on what Jews truly believe.
We can agree on historical events, but please leave us to decide what we do or do not believe as part of our religion.
Except that some of the Jews were raised as C'ians and were very well-educated as C'ians. I for one was. I was raised first as a fundamentalist, and then as a more liberal Methodist. I have family members, many many family members who are ministers, missionaries, etc. I come from a whole line on both sides including my step family of highly educated C'ians. I don't mean far away family members like cousins (though that is true too): grandparents, uncles & aunts, and my own siblings.
post #153 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope View Post
Similarly, Christians need (IMO) to recognize and renounce anti-Semitic verses in the Christain Scriptures, take responsibility for these wrong and misguided teachings, be aware of the historical record of this issue, and renounce anti-Semitism in word and deed.


Like I mentioned earlier, I know personally Methodist bishops teaching this. And I'm pleased to see C'ians moving this way.
post #154 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope View Post
Non-mod note here - IMO Christians not only need to be aware of anti-Semitic teachings by Christians, they need to take an active stance against such teachings *in the name of Christianity.* This is similar to saying that even though some verses in Christian scripture support slavery, Christians as a whole need to recognize that slavery is wrong, it is sinful, and it treats other people as less than fully human. In the 21st Century, sure, virtually any Christian could see this, but in the 19th Century, and earlier, many Christians used Biblical texts to defend slavery.

Similarly, Christians need (IMO) to recognize and renounce anti-Semitic verses in the Christain Scriptures, take responsibility for these wrong and misguided teachings, be aware of the historical record of this issue, and renounce anti-Semitism in word and deed.
I agree.
I want to learn specific verses in New Testament that promote anti-semitism. Do they come from Paul's teachings? I admit that I spend most of my time reading the gospels and don't spend too much time reading anything else in NT.
I think "knowledge" is the key. If there are anti-semitic verses in Scriptures, I don't think many recognize them or interpret them as such. I wonder if we should start a separate thread studying which verses are considered anti-semitic in New Testament by Jewish people. I didn't find anything in Jesus's teachings that would suggest anti-semitism.
post #155 of 234
I'm supposed to be cleaning house : so I don't have time at this moment to look up verses for you. But the early Christians had some serious conflicts with Jewish authorities as Christianity was getting established as its own, independant sect. So when the gospels were written, and even when Paul was writing, that tension was in play. The frequent trope in the gospels about the Pharisees this and the Sadducees that is one example... those aren't good *historical* representations of either Jewish group. They're highly colored by early Christian experiences. Does that make sense?
post #156 of 234
post #157 of 234
Thanks, MV.
post #158 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope View Post
The frequent trope in the gospels about the Pharisees this and the Sadducees that is one example... those aren't good *historical* representations of either Jewish group. They're highly colored by early Christian experiences. Does that make sense?
yes, exactly.
post #159 of 234
thank you, mamaverdi
post #160 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope View Post
Non-mod note here - IMO Christians not only need to be aware of anti-Semitic teachings by Christians, they need to take an active stance against such teachings *in the name of Christianity.* This is similar to saying that even though some verses in Christian scripture support slavery, Christians as a whole need to recognize that slavery is wrong, it is sinful, and it treats other people as less than fully human. In the 21st Century, sure, virtually any Christian could see this, but in the 19th Century, and earlier, many Christians used Biblical texts to defend slavery.

Similarly, Christians need (IMO) to recognize and renounce anti-Semitic verses in the Christain Scriptures, take responsibility for these wrong and misguided teachings, be aware of the historical record of this issue, and renounce anti-Semitism in word and deed.
I am going to be really honest here.

I don't think Xians *need* to do any of this stuff. I think it is great that other people think that, and I think it would be nice if Xians actually did this stuff. But I dont see *why* they would *need* to do it.

I dont know, I am sure this is going to offend people but, if Xian texts, many Xian texts, encourage and promote anti-semitism, and throughout history, almost without cease, violence, expusions, enforced poverty, murder and more have been done to the Jews by official Xian Churches and by Xian people in the name of Xianity, and even if violence is no longer commonly promoted and done by Xians against Jews, anti-semitism is preached in various forms in many places, why should I beleive that Xianity is not inherently anti-semetic?

This is an honest question.

I am definitely not saying that all Xians are anti-semitic, especially not the mamas on this thread many of whom have said some really wonderful things. I also know that Xianity promotes some things that I also value, loveing your fellow man, peace, humbleness, modesty, charity, beleif in G-D. These are really important things. But to me, it *seems* like in addition to all these things Xianity is and has always been anti-semetic.

I am not asking Xianity to change this. I don't know if it is possible.

I am sorry if I have hurt or insulted any one here. This is not personal. It is just the way things *seem* to me.

My understanding of Xianity is based on assuming that it works at least somewhat the way Judaism works. That the books are holy and we dont edit them or change them. For me as a Jew this means that men and women do not play an equal role in anything. I struggled with this for a long time. I was part of Jewish movements that "changed" Judaism to "remedy" this. After much learning, I felt that this was disengenuous. According to Judaism women and men are not the same and they should not do the same stuff. That is not what I was taught in (secular/ feminist) college, but in Judaism the way it has been practiced and passed downby everyone up untill the last 100 years or less, that is the bottom line. And for me, if I do not beleive in the integrity of the system (of Judaism) than what meaning does it really hold for me anyway. I am holding Xianity to the same standard. This may be incorrect.

I also want to make clear that *definitely* not all the Jewish mamas on this thread feel the same way about Judaism as I do. And that the thoughts about Judaism - which are now informing my thoughts on "changing" Xianity- are just that, my thoughts. NOT carved in stone.
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