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Did Christians persecute the Jews? - Page 11

post #201 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven View Post
Apparently you didn't read my explanation or that of several other posters. It's offensive not to recognize Jesus as the messiah? Sorry, but for some it is a point of theology. I know many who won't say "Christmas" either, for the same reason - what the word means in it's etymology. "The mass (celebration) of the messiah".
I think someone else already explained that shortening it for religious reasons is much different than shortening it just to be a .
post #202 of 234
I don't know anyone who shortens it to be an ass.

Even when I id'ed as Christian, I often used x. So did most of the Christians I know. It was even used in my Catholic school.

The reasons for doing it are not just religious reasons or mean reasons.
post #203 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
I think someone else already explained that shortening it for religious reasons is much different than shortening it just to be a .
so if you dont have a religion and just are not christian does that count?
post #204 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
I think someone else already explained that shortening it for religious reasons is much different than shortening it just to be a .
Yes, I'm aware. But apparently that was not sufficient explanation for some since a poster has never met someone who believed such. I'm just left wondering - do some believe it a plot to be "secretly offensive" justified in theological wording? That certainly seems to be the unsaid accusation. And yes, left wondering about those who say it "just to be a ".
post #205 of 234
duplicate post
post #206 of 234
Definitely America has a long history of Anti-Semitism... both overt and more subtle. Reminds me of Mel Gibson's film.. when there was the whole is this anti-Semitic debate? Of course, it isn't anti-Semetic said many... and then, what, a few years later Mel had his drunken tirade.

I think many think because it is not overt... it no longer exists. Same as I had colleagues at a Fortune 50 country who would swear up and down that they were not racist... but then would make snide comments about a colleague's promotion as being all because of diversity benchmarks and not about her merit as a marketer. :

I've been watching the Jewish Americans on PBS, and I was shocked to find out what a gigantic anti-Semite Henry Ford was. He actually bought a paper and just ranted and raved about this or that Jewish conspiracy for like a year or two... until some guy in California had the balls to sue him. (I think his name was Sapiro?) Anyways... Ford ending up having to print a retraction and his newspaper soon closed... but this guy's paper had the second largest circulation in the country.

BTW, last year Yale created a center to study Anti-Semitism as it is on the rise in the world. http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/...i_Semitism.php
post #207 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven View Post
Yes, I'm aware. But apparently that was not sufficient explanation for some since a poster has never met someone who believed such. I'm just left wondering - do some believe it a plot to be "secretly offensive" and justify it in theological wording? That certainly seems to be the unsaid accusation. And yes, left wondering about those who say it "just to be a ".
It probably depends on who you're asking. When I used it as an atheist I wasn't attempting to be "secretly offensive", I knew a lot of Christians didn't like it and that's exactly why I used it, and it was used almost exclusively on all the atheist boards (and interreligious) I posted on specifically for that reason; I was trying to be blatantly offensive. Since that's the context I always saw it used it of course that's the first thing I'm going to think of. It's nice that this apparently doesn't happen much anymore, maybe things are changing. That said, I don't assume someone's trying to be "secretly offensive" if they use that term (and while I prefer the proper name to be used, as I do with any religion, it isn't a huge deal to me personally).

I think it's quite a silly thing to be arguing about, actually.
post #208 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post

I've been watching the Jewish Americans on PBS, and I was shocked to find out what a gigantic anti-Semite Henry Ford was. He actually bought a paper and just ranted and raved about this or that Jewish conspiracy for like a year or two... until some guy in California had the balls to sue him. (I think his name was Sapiro?) Anyways... Ford ending up having to print a retraction and his newspaper soon closed... but this guy's paper had the second largest circulation in the country.
Oh yeah...he was a HUGE anti-Semite. I'm actually kind of surprised you didn't know! I remember learning about that back in high school of all places!
post #209 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
I think it's quite a silly thing to be arguing about, actually.
I agree. But I had never known that there were atheists that use it just to be offensive. Thanks for letting me know.
post #210 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
Oh yeah...he was a HUGE anti-Semite. I'm actually kind of surprised you didn't know! I remember learning about that back in high school of all places!
Maybe they never brought it up because I went to a high school in Michigan that had many kids whose parents were executives at the Big Three (automakers)?? Also a big Jewish population... so it probably wasn't PC to bring up. Who knows... my Mom and I could have been having a girls' day that day. (She used to call me in sick and we'd go shopping.)
post #211 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post

I think it's quite a silly thing to be arguing about, actually.
It is, I agree. And, like you, I have never seen it used as a religious avoidance of mentioning Christ. Only by those intending to be offensive. And honestly? Given the Christian-bashing tone of this thread, that's how it comes across. Offensive.

I won't apologize for finding it such.
post #212 of 234
Quote:
And, like you, I have never seen it used as a religious avoidance of mentioning Christ.
Except here, right? Or you haven't seen it used here and explained as a religious issue? I'm guessing you have never met any Chabadniks b/c as a rule, they avoid the word "Christ" as do many others. One out of the three schools my kids are in avoids it and it's a very "mainstream" orthodox one. It's quite common in Lakewood too - almost the rule - so I'm surprised you've never heard of it.

I've resigned myself that some will be determined to find offense no matter how well explained an issue.
post #213 of 234
And while the accusation of "Christian-bashing" is on the table, can I suggest that this is similar to those that cannot make the distinction betweens whites being the inheritors of the "benefits" of a racist system in the US while individuals may remain not racist? Or that often whites are not even aware of some racist attitudes they hold?
post #214 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dov'sMom View Post
Not like Orthodox Judaism, maybe, but my understanding (from admittedly fairly narrow exposure) is that Conservative Judaism leans toward a "sola scriptura" approach as well -- modern scholars can reinterpret ancient texts and if the interpretation is logical they can throw out the law that was based on the old interpretation.
I think you might be right about that. At least it seems to be true in Reform Judaism. In any case, these are both relatively new movements in Judaism, and even they recognize that their way of doing things is not in line with traditional Judaism.
post #215 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiger View Post
It is, I agree. And, like you, I have never seen it used as a religious avoidance of mentioning Christ. Only by those intending to be offensive. And honestly? Given the Christian-bashing tone of this thread, that's how it comes across. Offensive.

I won't apologize for finding it such.
Oh, well...

Just to explain further, this isn't the only term some religious Jews avoid saying or writing. For example, my husband is into astronomy. He makes an effort to call the planets and constellations by alternative names, since many of them are named after Roman gods and goddesses. Some of them have Jewish names that come from the Talmud. He tries to use those when he can; I think Jupiter is called "Tzedek". Sometimes he just makes up alternate names, if he doesn't know one from Torah and wants to avoid saying something. Sometimes he has to say the regular name, or no one would know what he's talking about, but he prefers not to due to his religious convictions. It's certainly not something he does to upset Pagan Roman Reconstructionists!
post #216 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry View Post
Would a Gospel scholar please explain (not meaning this snarkily) the classic "passion play" lines and how they are not anti-Jewish? (i.e. "His blood be upon us and our children") Especially considering how they have been used in history as a stepping-off point for pogroms against Jews during the Easter season?
I am certainly not a Gospel scholar, but I am familiar with the lines, which are found in the Gospels. Some parts of the Gospels describe the fairly intense conflict between Jesus and his followers, and certain members of the Jewish hierarchy. The claim was, in short, that some leaders of the Jewish community, finding Jesus a source of conflict and disturbance, and finding some of his teachings and actions scandalous, allowed/encouraged Jesus to be turned over to the Roman authorities, who eventually had him executed, partly in response to perceived popular support.

"How are these statements not anti-Jewish?"
Because they are supposed to describe the actions of a small, specific group of people at a particular time in history. Saying "David Berkowitz was a serial killer" is not anti-Jewish, because it states a fact about one particular Jewish man, and does not imply anything about Jews in general except to an already prejudiced mind.
Again, I can only give the interpretation my own church would offer: that any guilt which might be attached to the Pharisees' actions ended with the death of those individuals. They did not pass it along to their descendants, certainly not over many, many generations. Even if they not only agreed with and accepted responsibility for the execution, even if they prayed to God to pass the responsibility on to their descendants ad infinitum, God (as we understand Him) would not have done so. Anyone who believes that this passage justifies violent acts against Jews is in total ignorance, or else is using Scripture to come up with excuses for something they planned to do in the first place. It would make as much sense as assaulting random Italians because the Romans carried out Jesus' crucifixion, and using Scripture to justify it.
post #217 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
Maybe I misinterpreted. Your statement, like scripture, is open to many interpretations. You explained that few people have the years of education and background to interpret Jewish texts, unlike Christian texts, which "speak for themselves." I should add that the concept held by some Protestant denominations, that the Bible can be picked up and correctly interpreted by anyone at all, is most definitely not accepted by all Christian churches.
One thing I was trying to explain, which I apparently did not do so well, it a basic difference in the way the "scriptures" are used and interpreted. In Protestant Christianity, the Bible, more or less, stands alone. A person just needs that one book to do basic "Bible study". Of course, there are many other texts that could be referenced, but the Bible itself is considered the ultimate authority. In traditional Judaism, on the other hand, one hardly ever reads "scripture" alone. The Chumash (the first 5 books of the Torah) is usually read with Rashi's commentary, for example. We might try to find personal meaning or make personal reflections on the words of the Torah, but for the correct interpretation, we look to centuries of Jewish sages to explain the words. We believe the words of the sages ultimately derive from the Torah itself, but one can't really be separated from the other. It's a rather complex relationship that's hard to explain, but I'm trying. Also, it is a very strong tradition in Protestantism that one can take a Bible in the vernacular and understand the text that way. While some do study in the original languages, this has never been considered sufficient in Judaism.

Also, as far as my comments about educational background go, I'm not just trying to say that non-Jews are just ignorant/stupid and can never understand what a Jew can. I do think that most people, Jews included, lack the required background to interpret the Torah. I include myself in this. Most people are woefully uneducated about Judaism. Unless a person has attended Jewish educational institutions or make a serious effort at self-education, the level of Jewish knowledge will be very poor.

On the other hand, in the US, basic and not-so-basic Christian history and knowledge is a part of most people's secular education. Probably a third of my European History courses in high school and college consisted of the history of the church. I had a required course in college on medieval thought in which I was assigned to read selections of many Christian thinkers, including Augustine, Anselm, Bernard and Aquinas (the professor was Jewish, btw!). I was an Art History major and I analyzed more Crucifixions and Annunciations than I could count (in several courses that were, interestingly, also taught by a Jewish professor). There was very little Jewish content to my liberal arts education, despite a large Jewish population and Jewish professors at the university I attended. They did have a Jewish studies department, but that was something one had to seek out, rather than part of the core requirements, as Christian knowledge was. So while I may not be the best person to interpret Christian scriptures, I do not feel that I am coming from a place of total ignorance as most people approach Judaism. It is virtually impossible to graduate from public schools and universities without some kind of background in Christianity. This is why I almost start to laugh when Christians start to try and explain the Reformation to me, like I wouldn't know just because I'm Jewish. I'm not saying I'm a scholar in this area of anything, but, really, we get a fair Christian education just by being in a Christian-majority country.
post #218 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
"How are these statements not anti-Jewish?"
Because they are supposed to describe the actions of a small, specific group of people at a particular time in history. Saying "David Berkowitz was a serial killer" is not anti-Jewish, because it states a fact about one particular Jewish man, and does not imply anything about Jews in general except to an already prejudiced mind.
David Berkowitz did not write a book that informs the theology of any religion and Paul was not just "some Jewish dude with issues about Jews". I'm surprised that a Christian would try to minimize Paul in such a fashion.
post #219 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post


Let's try it, again, with a different religion.
1) Muslims have committed many terrorist acts.
2) Terrorism is an essential part of Islam.

Or...
1) Some Jews are racists.
2) Racism is a basic element of Judaism.

Can we agree there is a difference between 1 and 2?

The persecution of other groups by Christians or by Europeans under Christian culture has been brought up before. I think it is relevant to this issue. Over the centuries, different churches or organizations have claimed a Christian, scriptural basis for many things...
Slavery
Child beating
Wife beating
Racial segregation
Witch burning
Denying the vote to women
Numerous military invasions
Book banning
Torture
Genocide of native populations
The censorship of Copernican astronomy
All of these things have been put forth - wrongly - as based on Christian scripture and teaching, and often supported through violence or even mass murder. Along with these and many others, the idea that Christians should persecute the Jews was and is believed by some. Why single out just one of these crackpot ideas, and insist that it really, truly is essential to Christianity?

I will also add, one more time, that it is not appropriate to define and explain the religion of another. That is especially true here, where I suspect hostility against Christianity would thwart any attempt to be objective.
I'm sorry. I just won't be able to see it that way

I grew up a conservative Jew, with reform relatives, orthodox rabbi relatives, etc. We were all over the map as far as observancy. And unlike the many, many different Christian denomonations I knew, I never heard anything from my parents, my relatives, my community, about getting out the vote and discriminating against a group just trying to live and be themselves. As long as I can remember almost every Christian group I have come across has spoken out about, I don't know, pick your cause, gay marriage, gay adoption, sodomy laws, and so on. I am NOT saying, by any stretch that all Christians are like this, and that no Jews are. Of course. We are all human. But as groups. I can't understand how this can be denied.

J(mumble mumble) explained it more elegantly than I, but I'm still just sayin, didn't want you to think I was ignoring you, I just saw your response today.
post #220 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven View Post
David Berkowitz did not write a book that informs the theology of any religion and Paul was not just "some Jewish dude with issues about Jews". I'm surprised that a Christian would try to minimize Paul in such a fashion.
I don't think she is talking about Paul.
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