Did Christians persecute the Jews? - Page 12

[CherryBomb]

I'm confused on where we're even at anymore.

[CherryBomb]

*

[crazy_eights]

Originally Posted by Janelovesmax

I don't think she is talking about Paul.

You're right. I misunderstood the answer. But she is answering about what is written in the gospels. And what she *is* writing about are the "Pharisees" which are given a very bad rap in the NT, including that they turned him over to the Romans. Now, you can say that it is just a "small group of Jews". However, all of "Rabbinic Judaism" (that's just mainstream Jews throughout the millennium to me and you) are the descendants of the "Pharisees". See where this could be a problem????

[Janelovesmax]

Originally Posted by mom2seven

You're right. I misunderstood the answer. But she is answering about what is written in the gospels. And what she *is* writing about are the "Pharisees" which are given a very bad rap in the NT, including that they turned him over to the Romans. Now, you can say that it is just a "small group of Jews". However, all of "Rabbinic Judaism" (that's just mainstream Jews throughout the millennium to me and you) are the descendants of the "Pharisees". See where this could be a problem????

yes!

[crazy_eights]

Originally Posted by Janelovesmax

yes!

We see eye to eye on something!

[mamaverdi]

Originally Posted by graceomalley

I think you'll find that only one person is the 'head' of Christianity, and that's Jesus. The rest are followers who made up their own teachings. This happens in all religions and is the reason why there are sects among all religions. The Pope only speaks for a small number of Christians, as does Luther, as does Joseph Smith and Calvin and another other figurehead of a denomination.

Okay. So this is WHY I said @ or AT the head. Not, "the head" cuz yeah I didn't want to get into the whole BODY of JC analogy.

And I posted SEVERAL times a link to this page called http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html

It is a page called The Anti-Jewish New Testament.

BUT most of the information comes from a book written by a C'ian who points out examples of anti-Jewish sentiment in the so called NT.

AND you can put in the chapter and verse into www.blueletterbible.org and look at it in various translations of the NT and see that he didn't just pull these out of his

I can do it and copy it here, but I just don't personally have time.

But I HAVE now posted this AT LEAST 3 times.

And I can't quote from the site because of the copyright rules etc.

Let me use one or two examples since maybe the link is offensive?

Here's a good one: Matthew 12:34a: in this verse the Pharisees are called evil poisonous snakes. Check it here: www.blueletterbible.org

Or John 8:44 Ye [Jews] are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Maybe most people (C'ians) don't know that modern Jews are descendants of Pharisees. Pharisees weren't just some small little group of Jews.



I don't know if I should even say this. Maybe it's irrelevant since I'm no longer C'ian, but I'll try.

I was brought up in a very fundamentalist church. Until I was 12 years old in fact. We were preacher's grandkids, both my grandfathers were preachers, and one of them lived in Central America for a long long time "missionizing." My mother and step-father are still very C'ian, as are my grandparents.

So back to my point. I cannot hear the word Pharisee to this day and not think of that word or the group of people FIRST as I was taught to see them. Maybe this isn't how most C'ians are taught. But I was taught that they were vile, vipers, out for only themselves, to hurt others, to arrange for the DEATH of JC. That they would pray in public while it was more modest to pray in one's closet in the dark (I don't even know where this idea comes from---but I remember being taught this). I have almost a cartoon-like picture in my head of who these people were.

And so despite the history that I know, and despite my conversion, and despite well just about everything, I still have that cartoon picture and feeling of near revulsion when I hear the word Pharisee.

But maybe my "little" church was the only one teaching this? I hope so. But I kind of doubt it.

And given how many of my "friends" and family members who started praying for my "lost" soul when I converted, I dunno. I guess, as a C'ian, I didn't see so much of C'ianity as thinking Jews had it all wrong, and how really any of this was/is offensive. I NEVER expected people to start praying for me because I became a Jew. I NEVER expected to be told that EVERYONE should see that Mel Gibson movie because it was the most spiritual experience ever. I NEVER expected my grandmother to make a face of "yeah of course" when I mentioned a problem that existed at the Jewish school that my son goes to (a problem at many schools by the way, not just Jewish ones).

And I'm sure someone can come along and say, well they aren't really C'ians, but rest assured, they don't think any of you are C'ians either.

[Tracy]

Originally Posted by mtiger

It is, I agree. And, like you, I have never seen it used as a religious avoidance of mentioning Christ. Only by those intending to be offensive. And honestly? Given the Christian-bashing tone of this thread, that's how it comes across. Offensive.

I won't apologize for finding it such.

wow. I gotta say christian bashing tone is not how I would characterize this thread. and I'm confident Mods would be all over it if that was the case. You may want to send them a PM if you have seen such a post.

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by mamaverdi

And I'm sure someone can come along and say, well they aren't really C'ians, but rest assured, they don't think any of you are C'ians either.

I don't think it's so much that people don't think they're Christians, just that they aren't representative of all of Christendom, and a lot of times on this board we all get lumped together and are expected to speak for everyone when it's not really possible. And yeah, it sounds like they're the type who probably don't think I'm a Christian

That they would pray in public while it was more modest to pray in one's closet in the dark (I don't even know where this idea comes from---but I remember being taught this)

It's likely a reference to Matthew 6:5-

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

But it sounds like they missed the whole point of that verse, which wasn't that praying in public is inherently wrong or evil (I mean duh, plenty of Christians pray publicly!), but that praying for the sake of being seen is wrong. It's better to pray earnestly in private where no one but God will see you than to pray falsely in public so that people think you're pious when you're not.

Or John 8:44 Ye [Jews] are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Right before that it says

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

So again it's not speaking of Jews as a whole (which would include Jesus himself) but of the ones who were denying him. Jesus isn't saying that the Jews who rejected him were evil and formed by Satan, but that Satan is the father of lies and that (in Jesus' view) many of the Jews had fallen victim to his lies, i.e. become his children. I understand it's problematic because Christians looking for excuses to be anti-Semites can easily use such scripture to support their view, ignoring the fact that the statement would apply to anyone who's rejected Christ, Jew or gentile (and of course many non-Christians don't like the idea that they've fallen victim to lies if they're not Christians, but that's another thread).

But maybe my "little" church was the only one teaching this? I hope so. But I kind of doubt it.

I doubt it, too. Sounds like a fairly common theme in fundamentalist type churches. My mom went to a Methodist bible college and I was raised non-denomination Protestant, and while I certainly wasn't given the cartoonish vision of the Pharisee like you were, I wasn't really told a lot about Jews at all. I wasn't told they were bad or people I should pity, but I wasn't really told anything, which is almost just as sad, I think.

Now, you can say that it is just a "small group of Jews". However, all of "Rabbinic Judaism" (that's just mainstream Jews throughout the millennium to me and you) are the descendants of the "Pharisees". See where this could be a problem????

Yeah, I can see that.

[gilamama]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

So again it's not speaking of Jews as a whole (which would include Jesus himself) but of the ones who were denying him.

Cherry, i really appretiate your tone and your attention to detail in your response. I just wanted to ask if this is maybe a major difference btwn Xianity and Judaism. B/c when you say that not all the Jews are children of the devil only the one who dont beleive that J is the Messiah, that pretty much includes every.Jew.who.Judaism.considers.Jewish. If you accept that messiah has come and canceled all the mitzvot. That counts you out from our people.

Devarim 13 (deuteronomy)

1 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. {P}

2 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams--and he give thee a sign or a wonder, 3 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee--saying: 'Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them'; 4 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 5 After the LORD your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave. 6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in.

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by gilamama

Cherry, i really appretiate your tone and your attention to detail in your response. I just wanted to ask if this is maybe a major difference btwn Xianity and Judaism. B/c when you say that not all the Jews are children of the devil only the one who dont beleive that J is the Messiah, that pretty much includes every.Jew.who.Judaism.considers.Jewish. If you accept that messiah has come and canceled all the mitzvot. That counts you out from our people.

I totally understand how that sounds when you frame in a modern context, because Jews who accept Christ don't ID as Jewish anymore (besides Messianics I suppose, but I know that's a point of contention), so then you've got like...A HUGE number of people falling on the "other side". Where as when Jesus was talking, he was talking about a relatively small number of people (in total, both those that accepted him and those that didn't). So in his context it's like...well, okay. But in modern terms it can be really shocking to think of it that way, because you're talking about millions of people. Does that make any sense?

It's a difficult subject in general to talk about, because it's hard to respectfully say to anyone, whether they're Jewish or not "I think my way is the Truth and others are victims of lies." WRT Jews specifically it's *very* uncomfortable because representing your religion (i.e., Catholicism) truthfully is difficult when there *is* such a strong historical context of antisemitism, as well as a modern one. Most people don't take "Oh well, you're not any more of a sinner than anyone else" in a positive way, even if they person isn't trying to be offensive. It's kind of like...having someone in this thread refer to Christ as a "false God" is hurtful, but at the same time I understand the intent is the person being honest about their own belief.

[gilamama]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

I totally understand how that sounds when you frame in a modern context, because Jews who accept Christ don't ID as Jewish anymore (besides Messianics I suppose, but I know that's a point of contention), so then you've got like...A HUGE number of people falling on the "other side". Where as when Jesus was talking, he was talking about a relatively small number of people (in total, both those that accepted him and those that didn't). So in his context it's like...well, okay. But in modern terms it can be really shocking to think of it that way, because you're talking about millions of people. Does that make any sense?

i am not sure.

Most people don't take "Oh well, you're not any more of a sinner than anyone else" in a positive way, even if they person isn't trying to be offensive.

I remember my friend Robin came into high school one day, and told us how she had a dream the night before that all her Jewish friends went to hell. So not any more a sinner than anyone else sounds pretty... um... ecumenical (is that the right word?) to me.

Is that specifically Catholic post Vatican II ideology? How would a Protestant think abt Jews compared to other "sinners?

[Kidzaplenty]

Originally Posted by gilamama

Is that specifically Catholic post Vatican II ideology? How would a Protestant think abt Jews compared to other "sinners?

The Scriptures teach that ALL have sinned.

Romans 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

No distinction is made about any person, no matter their race, religion, gender, or anything. ALL means ALL.

[heket]

Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty

But again, this all goes back to history. All our history as Christians began at Jesus. So in some sense or another we are all inter-related, sure. But that does not make the basics of the Christian faith anti-semitic. And I am not speaking of just MY church, I am speaking from personal experience with MANY churches over the last 35 years of my life covering several different sects. As well as from my knowledge of scriptures that I have studied extensively. The scriptures are in no way anti-semitic, and that is the sole basis for my Christian beliefs. Church doctrines do differ from church to church, but I have also never come across that teaching within any of the many churches I have been a member of.

So again, I don't really understand what this thread is wanting from "me" as a Christian. To admit that the church teaches anti-semitic teachings? Because it that is what is being asked I will never do it, because it is simply untrue, from where I stand. Again, perhaps somewhere back in history, but not in any my experience. If you are asking that it has happened in the past, sure and it was horrid, but I can't change the past. All I can do is to change the future.

Originally Posted by Penelope

I'm supposed to be cleaning house : so I don't have time at this moment to look up verses for you. But the early Christians had some serious conflicts with Jewish authorities as Christianity was getting established as its own, independant sect. So when the gospels were written, and even when Paul was writing, that tension was in play. The frequent trope in the gospels about the Pharisees this and the Sadducees that is one example... those aren't good *historical* representations of either Jewish group. They're highly colored by early Christian experiences. Does that make sense?

Historically, christianity has issues with it's formation, much less against the jews. Just look to the new discoveries of gospels, texts, and thoughts. History channel has some interesting ideas on why certain gospels were left out of christian theology and how that would affect their perceived thoughts of Jesus and the prophet they wanted to portray (as an up and coming religion of the 1st/ 2nd century.)

So fast forward. Jews were useful to society in medievel Europe because they were money lenders. It was convenient to expel them once the Crusades came around. Same as the Moors in Spain, or Gypsies in Europe. When the holocaust came around, not only was it the Jews, but homosexuals, gypsies, and other unwanted elements that would not promulgate the "ideal race." Unfortunately the largest sect that was exterminated was the Jews.

Originally Posted by umsami

Maybe they never brought it up because I went to a high school in Michigan that had many kids whose parents were executives at the Big Three (automakers)?? Also a big Jewish population... so it probably wasn't PC to bring up. Who knows... my Mom and I could have been having a girls' day that day. (She used to call me in sick and we'd go shopping.)

That's like saying my mom went to school with daughters of the Mafia (it was a Catholic high school and she will swear that she went to school with - forgive me, it's her term - goombas. She has stories of teen girls who would go to school in the Brooklyn area with full furs and limousine rides. I'm sure they didn't talk about (or know of) their father's work either.

This thread is interesting and frightening. Someone mentioned the paperclips story. Yes, it's nice, but not the only holocaust/ teens learning kind of story. What about Hanna's Suitcase? Same idea, but Japanese teens. What about hate groups who swear the holocaust only exists on made up video? How many people have gone to a holocaust museum?

Christians were persecuted, and jews have been persecuted. No, they aren't the only religious groups. They aren't the only minority groups. It isn't a matter of who has been, was or will be. It's a matter of how do we change it now, and how can we heal together.

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by gilamama

Is that specifically Catholic post Vatican II ideology? How would a Protestant think abt Jews compared to other "sinners?

I'm not sure, it probably just depends on who you're talking about specifically. I think most Christians in general acknowledge that all of us have sinned and are sinners. I wouldn't doubt though that there are groups that place a special sin on Jews, though.