the gorilla in the room - Page 2

[locksmama]

Vivian is 61/2 months old. We have co-slept since she came home from the hospital.
She tries to nurse herself to sleep these days and is unsuccessful. She ends up rolling off and fssing and wriggling and crying until she gets really tired and then wants to nurse again. This time (usually #3) generally works and she stays asleep for at least 1-2 hours or so before waking up to nurse down again. Lately she is just a huge restless sleeper and the nursing doesn't seem to have the same effect. Also, if I go upstairs after the initial bedtime she seems to stay asleep longer....We are all stressed out around here and that is probably affecting her.
She is also on a two week napstrike. She nurses and as soon as I try to put her down she wakes up and cries or starts cooing and playing....
arrghh.
I am considering a plan that will combine ideas from the NCSS book and the BW book. Since we are moving I'm not sure whether I want to implement them now or once we are settled.
The reason I posted this is because I feel like a failure and am a short fused mama that is losing her mind. Someone gave me the baby wise book and there were a few things that made sense and whole lot that was crap. Perhaps there are just too many cooks in the kitchen of ideas. When you are stressed and sleep deprived its hard to make choices--especially hard ones like this. Why can't God just call me on the phone and tell me what to do? lol
BTW I'm the one doing all the packing while my husband will be working on the house after bedtime many nights till we move hopefully in a month. oh and I'm having surgery in April to boot.
soooo I'm crazy and crying everyday and spinning in a circle of solicited and unsolicited advice trying to figure out what's best for Vivian. it sucks.

[locksmama]

double post edited

[cotopaxi]

Originally Posted by locksmama

She tries to nurse herself to sleep these days and is unsuccessful. She ends up rolling off and fssing and wriggling and crying until she gets really tired and then wants to nurse again.

My dd started doing this at 4 months. I guess she didn't want to / wasn't able to nurse to sleep anymore, AND it seems she wanted her own space. After I finally figured it out, I started putting her down in her crib, on her tummy, when she got like that. She'd then suck her fingers while I rubbed her back and fell asleep.

I tried it both ways (nursing to sleep vs. putting in crib and rubbing back), and at first she fussed either way. But she fussed more quietly in the crib, and fell asleep more quickly, AND if I picked her up and tried to hold her, nurse her, or rock her after putting her in the crib she would absolutely scream. A few months later, she now sleeps just beautifully and goes down with no fussing whatsoever, and about 3/4 of the time doesn't even want her back rubbed anymore at bedtime (although she still does sometimes when she wakes in the night).

Does your dd suck her thumb or do any kind of self-soothing thing? Have you tried putting her in a crib or cosleeper? Just one more thing to think about, if you haven't experimented along those lines yet. I know some people don't like the idea of crib sleeping, but some babies really do seem to want their own space.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

ETA: I went back and checked the age of your dd in your sig. I think the 6-7 month period is often a time of transition and even previously "easy" babies when it comes to sleep might become more wakeful. This can be a really hard time, but you'll make it through!

OK I have no idea your baby was so young! I just posted too fast. I think all parents, CIO and otherwise, are fatigued at that age. It's just the way things are. It'll get better!

..and now I just read more about your situation. Did you recently start solids? She sounds uncomfortable.

Around 3 mos Ds wouldn't nurse to sleep anymore and I did the pantley pull off (from NCSS) and that worked. He would put himself to sleep and babble away. It worked great for a while. Then he went back to wanting/needing to nurse to sleep again (and still does at 19 mos).

I know it's easy for me to say but try to just breathe. Vivian is a person just like you are. You are getting to know each other. If nursing to sleep isn't working..... then what might relax her? Can you tell based on spending time with her? Does she like music? Dancing? Would she enjoy just lying next to you in bed? Would she like some time alone?

Remember all you are doing is helping her relax so she can fall asleep. Forget sleep crutches, associations, self-soothing etc. All that will evolve with time.

Just what does Vivian need to relax. Try to come up with a half hour or so of things that make her happy and comfortable.

:

[galincognito]

i wish that i could just reach out and give you a hug (plus a reprieve for a couple of hours!). i'm in a similar boat as you (napstrikes, waking when i put dd down, not sleeping well when co-sleeping) so i can understand where you are coming from. i know it's easy for me to say and hard to believe but you are the best mommy for your little girl. she loves you. i'm just not sure what else to say. you and your family are in my prayers.

[locksmama]

you know this started at 4 months, then wained, then strted again so hat totally makes sense she might be ready for more space. she rolls away alot and tries to roll onto her tummy in her fussing and tries to sleep on her side away from me alot lately. I'm keeping that in mind for when we move as we are going to sidecar the crib and start moving her slowly out of our room---s-l-o-w-l-y for both our sakes....
you guys have really helped me alot so thanks so so much. you have all helped me maintain sanity really.
My DH and I had a long talk and decided that I'm just gonna let her take naps in the Ergo and tough out the nights until we move. She might just be going through a phase of serious mommy needing so until she gets a little more normal at night and when we move after we settle I'll start doing the PPO at night (with all that ood back patting and sleepy words and such) and switching the routine in the day to more of a wake eat play snack wind down nap routine. We've started using a lovey and using cue words and the bedtime routine is set set up well already. Does that makes sense to you all? Whaddya think?
I'm holding it together and it is all thanks to alot of prayer and support from folks like you.

[Squrrl]

My experience very much parallels SweetPotato's (though my babe is much younger). I've found in the last few days that maybe I'm actually being TOO responsive, and that sometimes when I wake up to baby's rooting, I can just move us further apart and she goes back to sleep! Duh!

I agree with everyone else that it's the responsiveness, not the where the baby sleeps that really counts, and that if I was similarly responsive to now but put the baby in her own bed, I'd basically get no sleep at all. I also agree with the poster that said it takes a while to get used to it, and the poster who said that grownups vary as much as babies. I generally take a long time to get to sleep (incidentally, or not, I was CIO ), so there's been a real learning curve for me--it's taken me more like three months to adjust. But it's been GOOD for me, as a personal growth sort of thing.

Nobody seems to have mentioned this, but I thought I'd throw in that I've heard VERY bad things about Babywise, and when I read a few pages myself, I was disgusted. Much of the advice in it flies in the face of research, and it is a religiously motivated work...though condemned even by coreligionists, as far as that goes. I would think VERY carefully and do some supplementary reading before I employed anything from that book.

[dillNY]

Originally Posted by Squrrl

Nobody seems to have mentioned this, but I thought I'd throw in that I've heard VERY bad things about Babywise, and when I read a few pages myself, I was disgusted. Much of the advice in it flies in the face of research, and it is a religiously motivated work...though condemned even by coreligionists, as far as that goes. I would think VERY carefully and do some supplementary reading before I employed anything from that book.

You have to be really careful when judging things on what others say, or on a partial reading. I've heard only "horrible" things about Ferber, too, but now I'm reading it. And you know what? There's a lot of good information, and it is all based on research. He's a sleep center director, for crying out loud! I'm not a fan of CIO, but DH and I disagree, so I'm reading Ferber, he's reading the Sleep Lady book, and we'll compare notes.

If you only read the "progressive waiting" section of Ferber's book, you'd be horrified. But he has lots of helpful information about solving problems that interfere with sleep, and advocates examining all of those items first before even considering CIO. I've also heard people say Ferber advocates leaving kids alone to cry until they stop, which he doesn't. He wants you to check on them and reassure them every few minutes to start.

Sorry to get so rambly, I'm mostly just frustrated at myself for listening to heresay about Ferber and forming an opinion without reading it myself!

[nylecoj]

Originally Posted by guitarmama

I think that those of us who have non-sleepers, the ones who are "desparate", would still be getting too little sleep no matter what we did. I don't think that having my dd in a crib, letting her cio, or anything else would have made things much better. I think that dd's sleep "problems" are a part of who she is, and there's really nothibg to be done about it.

Me too.

Dd's sleep patterns have only changed with time - nothing we have or haven't done has had a significant impact.

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by dillNY

You have to be really careful when judging things on what others say, or on a partial reading. I've heard only "horrible" things about Ferber, too, but now I'm reading it. And you know what? There's a lot of good information, and it is all based on research. He's a sleep center director, for crying out loud! I'm not a fan of CIO, but DH and I disagree, so I'm reading Ferber, he's reading the Sleep Lady book, and we'll compare notes.

If you only read the "progressive waiting" section of Ferber's book, you'd be horrified. But he has lots of helpful information about solving problems that interfere with sleep, and advocates examining all of those items first before even considering CIO. I've also heard people say Ferber advocates leaving kids alone to cry until they stop, which he doesn't. He wants you to check on them and reassure them every few minutes to start.

Sorry to get so rambly, I'm mostly just frustrated at myself for listening to heresay about Ferber and forming an opinion without reading it myself!

I can say, unequivocally, that Babywise is very very bad. It has been linked to failure to thrive, breastfeeding problems, dehydration, etc.

[JuicyPakwan]

First of all lots of hugs it is no fun to be tired.

Secondly I have to agree with pp's if you have a young baby you will be tired no matter what your sleeping arangement. I have 7 sibling and amongst us my parents have 40+ grandkids. One of my siblings has 6 kids 1 from a previous marriage and 5 with current dh. She has EASY babies there is no way around it her kids literally sleep 8 hrs through the night after about 8 wks. She is very proud of herself and thinks she is doing everything right. She starts out co sleeping and moves to crib no problems. I have a sis who had one baby co sleep and another refuse and once they figured it out everyone slept better. I have another sister who thought she did everything right with her first kid sleep wise and got severly humbled with her second. My own kids co sleep my 19 mo old is starting to be a thrasher we may have to figure out her own space close by. Some of my other sisters have never truly coslept. No matter what sleeping arrangement we have chosen we all get tired we all wish for more sleep.

I recently met a woman at church who has a 4 mo old. She looks like the walking dead. I cringe every time I see her she falls asleep in the mothers lounge while nursing her baby. Her sentences sometimes are incoherent. But from what I gather it's not so much her baby (she doesn't co sleep or CIO) as her inconsiderate husband that won't let her sleep in past 8am on the weekends to recover.

The point of my rambling is no matter what you choose you might still be in the same predicament. I truly think there is no wrong solution except CIO. Do what works best and gets you the most sleep without distressing the baby.

[Adele_Mommy]

It sounds like you've got a plan and some things to try. Just having a plan always made me feel better even if it did not end up working 100%. As you say, everything is harder when you are sleep-deprived. You clearly are approaching this as a responsive parent and trying to meet your daughter's needs, so as long as you follow your instincts and don't feel you must do something that "feels wrong" just because some book or some person says so, you will be fine. Remember, if you try something and it is clearly not working you don't need to keep doing it just because you started it either (though some books try to make you think otherwise).

Good luck!

[nylecoj]

Originally Posted by D_McG

I think if you are chronically fatigued, then something isn't working and it's time for change

Hah. That, or your baby just doesn't like to sleep the same way you do.

We're up between 4 and 8 times a night no matter what we do (or don't do). That's just how it is with our child. Not sure what I would/could change at this point, but co-sleeping has definitely made some of the night time stuff easier for us.

See? I am so sleep deprived that I responded to this thread twice without even realizing it. Dork.

[PPK]

I think that for us, nursing to sleep was what initiated some of the frequent wakings,not so much the cosleeping.

I know a woman who is adamant about waking herself out of sleep, bf's, then pushes her baby a few feet from her so he won't equate food/sucking with sleep and she swears its what helped him to not wake so much ( I think w/her first she didn't). I felt that in the nb stage it was fine, but my intuition told me arond the 3rd month that it was getting to be a 'need' in order for ds to fall asleep. I wish I started to change things then. But we're working on it mow at 4.5months and it is improving (ncss).

Also, I second a pp's comment about needing some space sometmes. For the past few nights ds has woken once or twice fussing and he wasn't hungry, or wet. I got frustrated and moved across the bed and he instantly fell asleep!! Lately I think he likes a little distance physically, poor guy, I'm all over him at night usually

[wannabe]

You need to remember that this is a board where people post for help. I'm not about to go and start a thread on how great a sleeper my newborn is. So you've got essentially a slice of the population who are sleep deprived. Everyone else is off stressing about poo or food or behaviour. You wouldn't walk into an AA meeting and exclaim how no-one seems to be able to drink moderately these days.

Hah. That, or your baby just doesn't like to sleep the same way you do.

We're up between 4 and 8 times a night no matter what we do (or don't do). That's just how it is with our child. Not sure what I would/could change at this point, but co-sleeping has definitely made some of the night time stuff easier for us.

You posted twice but you said good stuff!

My two year old has nightmares, she wakes up from them. I sleep in a bed next to hers so I don't have to get out of bed to comfort her. I agree that bed sharing can cause nightwakings (it certainly does for me), but that's not the whole story.

But actually, I have seen people on here argue that any manipulation whatsoever of your child's sleep is a bad thing, no matter how you feel. And that was in a discussion about having a consistent bedtime for older kids! So I suppose yes, some people on here do make life harder/tireder than it needs to be.

[locksmama]

Originally Posted by jenrose9

I think that for us, nursing to sleep was what initiated some of the frequent wakings,not so much the cosleeping.

I know a woman who is adamant about waking herself out of sleep, bf's, then pushes her baby a few feet from her so he won't equate food/sucking with sleep and she swears its what helped him to not wake so much ( I think w/her first she didn't). I felt that in the nb stage it was fine, but my intuition told me arond the 3rd month that it was getting to be a 'need' in order for ds to fall asleep. I wish I started to change things then. But we're working on it mow at 4.5months and it is improving (ncss).

Also, I second a pp's comment about needing some space sometmes. For the past few nights ds has woken once or twice fussing and he wasn't hungry, or wet. I got frustrated and moved across the bed and he instantly fell asleep!! Lately I think he likes a little distance physically, poor guy, I'm all over him at night usually

I think you are correct. I place the blame for her nightwakings squarely on the nursing to sleep association. That why I am going to lovingly break it when we move and are settled.
I see also what folks are saying about people not posting good things. It makes sense.

[theatermom]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

I can say, unequivocally, that Babywise is very very bad. It has been linked to failure to thrive, breastfeeding problems, dehydration, etc.

ITA, Babywise and Ferber are two VERY different beasts. Ferber may be mainstream, but he bases his information on experience and evidence. The author of Babywise really is a religious zealot (not judging, just defining) with no scientific evidence to back up his claims on ANYTHING. The information he disseminates is dangerous to mothers and babies alike. There's no good reason to read Babywise.

On the topic at hand, I agree that it's hard to feel rested when babes reach that 6-7 month age bracket. Overall, co-sleeping has been a huge blessing to us, and we've been doing it for 7 1/2 years.

HUGS to the OP!! I hope that you get some much needed rest soon!

[WaturMama]

I posted on this thread yesterday (#17). I am someone for whom cosleeping is working. I was thinking about it later and realized this is my first time posting in this forum. And I only look at it very rarely. (The word "gorilla" caught my eye yesterday.) So I pretty much am that person for whom cosleeping is working that never posts here.

I read your post #21 describing how your dd is with sleeping and nursing. Recent changes could have to do with teething and pass. I think I remember that kind of things started around her age.

I know it is so hard dealing with sleep deprivation. It is hard to think straight. See if your intuition is telling you something. Also is there a way you can get some naps in the morning or days while someone plays with your dd?

Lots of good wishes and

[Jennisee]

Originally Posted by reezley

I am guessing the desperate moms would be just as desperately trying to get their babies to sleep better, whether or not they were cosleeping. They would just be even more tired if they had to get up out of bed during the night.

Yep. We didn't start cosleeping until DD was 6 months old, and I went from a couple hours of broken sleep a night to feeling like I was getting a full night's sleep. DD was a "good sleeper" until 4 months old, when she started waking up hourly, and because I refused to use CIO, I was up rocking and nursing for hours each night.

It is VERY common for babies in the 4-6 month old range to start having fitful sleep after sleeping soundly up to this point. It can be related to teething, learning to sit up or crawl, introduction of solids, becoming more aware of their surroundings, so many things. It's developmental, and not something sleep training can "fix." I used to post on a mainstream board, and not a single CIO user was "successful" during this age.

DD is 3.75 now and still sleeps with us. She also needed to nurse to sleep until about 2.5 years old. It wasn't a habit that needed broken, and she outgrew the need completely on her own.

[locksmama]

I don't mind nursing her down if she would then stay asleep after I put her down. She just doesn't do it anymore, and she needs myboob to go back to sleep all night long. My nipples hurt and I'm exhausted--and I'm just not a good mom when I'm tired like this. Somethings gotta give here!
I'm thinking of just starting the PPO at night.
I watched her closely and what it seems to me is that she is not getting past the light sleep phase very much. I think that is a big piece of this puzzle.