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The vaccine pushers - pediatricians. Our visit at doctor's office yesterday. - Page 2

post #21 of 42
All this OP's DR heard was "I'm hiding behind religion, here is the real reason why..." seriously. Don't go into your philosophical reasons, just stick to the religious ones. Tell him that you aren't going to debat this issue.
post #22 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mykdsmomy View Post
Good job, Amy! I have such a hard time finding my "words" when I'm dealing with dr's and vax's. It sounds like you were super articulate!
I usually don't have a problem finding words. I usually find too many words and end up putting my foot in my mouth! I did manage to keep my cool, and for that, I am proud of myself. Usually when someone tells me what I have to do, I automatically turn into a 13 year old and think, "You can't tell me what to do! You're not my mom!!!"

It does make me sick to know that they get "rewarded" for keeping a high percentage of kids vaccinated. I guess that is more important than taking each child's health and situation into consideration. Yuck.
post #23 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by yarngoddess View Post
All this OP's DR heard was "I'm hiding behind religion, here is the real reason why..." seriously. Don't go into your philosophical reasons, just stick to the religious ones. Tell him that you aren't going to debat this issue.
Better to just state the exemption thing and leave it at that.

These threads always make me think about how much I love DS' pediatrician. She's never once made me feel pressured about having him vaccinated. She knows my reasons and respects them and happily notes the religious exemption on his physical form for school. It's good to be able to go to someone and feel like they're actually your partner in keeping your child healthy.
post #24 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordeeme View Post
I have read that their practices are evaluated and compensated monetarily according to the percentage of patients that are !00% up to date on their vaccines. Any families in the practice who decline vaccines for any reason reduce their percentages and thus their kickbacks. Most have been and continue to be heavily influenced by their education that was most likely paid for with monies from the drug companies and the Professional Organizations that they belong to which are also heavily funded by the Pharma industry. Seek, and the truth shall be found. it may be confusing at times but just follow the money trails behind those who are trying to educate you and you will most definitely reach your own logical conclusions. It is not easy but we have to protect our little ones. Unfortunately, we have to question just about everything these days.

Yeah, I just got a letter from Blue Cross stating I wasn't going to get paid "top tier" because not all my patients got their immunizations. (I refuse to give Hep A, prevnar, and rotavirus and I never force my families to get anything. If they are unsure about vaxs, I tell them to go home, do more research, and we can talk about it at the next visit...)

Darn, and I needed a new toaster!
post #25 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocJenn View Post
Yeah, I just got a letter from Blue Cross stating I wasn't going to get paid "top tier" because not all my patients got their immunizations. (I refuse to give Hep A, prevnar, and rotavirus and I never force my families to get anything. If they are unsure about vaxs, I tell them to go home, do more research, and we can talk about it at the next visit...)

Darn, and I needed a new toaster!

can they really do that? legally?
post #26 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidspiration View Post
can they really do that? legally?
Yes, they can totally do this. It's not illegal. Unethical? Yes. Illegal? No.

I have a friend who used to be a pharma rep. He said that some doctors will not take a monetary payment for vaccination of their clients...but they will take incentives (like vacations, golf outings, expensive dinners, etc, etc, etc). In fact, most doctor offices that you go to where they refuse to see any patients who aren't vaxed...it's not because they believe "so strongly" in the vaccine...it's the incentives that are calling them.

It's funny...I told the moms in my local moms group (which I've been booted from because many of the moms took offense that THEIR precious doctors care more about money and golf outings than the health of their child) about the incentives and all (told directly to me by my friend) and they just about lost their minds. "No doctor would do that!" "My doctor demands full, on time immunizations so that my child doesn't get sick! That's all!" Sure, and I'm sure that he/she is thinking about how healthy his/her bank account is at the same time.

Some people just don't want to know the truth.
post #27 of 42
The insurance companies only want to make money. Any excuse to decrease what they pay out is fine with them. I also get penalized for writing brand name drug, not generics.
The rules for what pharm reps can give out drastically changed about 5 - 10 years ago. They used to give out golf outings, vacations, etc, but the gov't saw that many dr's were getting swayed by the pharm companies and not doing what was right for the patients. Now, they only give out pens (with pharm logo), pads of sticky notes (with Pharm logo) and an occassional dinner (to hear a lecture about something...with the pharm logo).
post #28 of 42
Just out of curiosity...why don't you give Prevnar, DocJenn?

ETA:

And welcome to MDC.
post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Just out of curiosity...why don't you give Prevnar, DocJenn?

ETA:

And welcome to MDC.
Thanks for the "welcome"!

In IL, Prevnar was "highly recommended, but not required". I still gave it anyway. Then one of my patients told me about MDC and I read a thread about prevnar with links to the CDC. According to the CDC, rate of Strep pneumo (the bacteria that prevnar protects against) meningitis and pneumonia (I've seen both and both are HORRIBLE) have not decreased at all since the vax was introduced. The only thing it has done is: 1. 'decreased the rate of ear infections' (however, just about that time, new recs for diagnosing ear infections were introduced) and 2. it has decreased the rate of bacteremia without a focus (meaning your kids looks sick, have fevers, ears are fine, lungs are fine, but strep pneumo is grown out of a blood culture). Since, IMHO, memingitis and pneumonia rates havent decreased, I don't think it is doing its job.

Besides, It hurts like H**L!! The kids always cry the most after it. I had the chance to talk to the CEO of Wyeth (the company that makes Prevnar) about the pain issue. They haven't done anything about it yet. If I meet him again, I'm gonna have the CDC data in my hand.
post #30 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by amydep View Post
Yeah...it definitely did not sink in. It's like he didn't even hear me when I said we were religiously opposed.

I just want to know exactly what it is that these doctors get from the drug reps. I'm sure trips are part of it, but what other kickbacks do they get that makes them feel so strongly about pushing these vaxes? Or do they truly feel like they are doing the right thing by making sure each and every child gets every vaccine?
Sadly I do think some doctors think it is in the best interest. But I don't see how it could be @ the #s they are giving now.
post #31 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocJenn View Post
Yeah, I just got a letter from Blue Cross stating I wasn't going to get paid "top tier" because not all my patients got their immunizations. (I refuse to give Hep A, prevnar, and rotavirus and I never force my families to get anything. If they are unsure about vaxs, I tell them to go home, do more research, and we can talk about it at the next visit...)

Darn, and I needed a new toaster!
Could you please move to Maryland?
post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocJenn View Post
The insurance companies only want to make money.
Exactly. When DD was little I was in her GP's office and saw a certificate framed on the wall that was an award from the Pharm company for 85% vaxed or something. That was when I started to figure it out.
post #33 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocJenn View Post
The insurance companies only want to make money. Any excuse to decrease what they pay out is fine with them. I also get penalized for writing brand name drug, not generics.
The rules for what pharm reps can give out drastically changed about 5 - 10 years ago. They used to give out golf outings, vacations, etc, but the gov't saw that many dr's were getting swayed by the pharm companies and not doing what was right for the patients. Now, they only give out pens (with pharm logo), pads of sticky notes (with Pharm logo) and an occassional dinner (to hear a lecture about something...with the pharm logo).
From what my friend told me, the "best" doctors still get these perks under the table. : It's not as widely done as it was before...but it does still happen.

Although, usually it's done in a more "conference" setting where they meet to slap each other on the back and then enjoy their vacation/golf outing/dinner at the top restaurants.
post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddoson View Post
Sadly I do think some doctors think it is in the best interest. But I don't see how it could be @ the #s they are giving now.
From my experience, the doctors "believe" what they are told. If you've never seen a pharma rep talk to a doctor about their products, you're missing out! LOL They tout this vax as the next best thing...throw in some incentives (pens, paper, notepads, mousepads, etc, etc, etc) and the docs will listen. It's sad because I think that if the docs REALLY researched the vaxes outside of what they are "sold" on in the speeches, they would probably back off on giving them. However, most docs I've met never research...they just go by what the pharmas tell them...which is why a lot of people hear the same stories from different doctors. It's not the docs experiences you're hearing, but the sales pitch from the pharmas that you're hearing (not always, but usually).
post #35 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocJenn View Post
The insurance companies only want to make money.
...and so does the pharmaceutical company and so does the ped. All on the backs (thighs) of our kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela512 View Post
From what my friend told me, the "best" doctors still get these perks under the table. : It's not as widely done as it was before...but it does still happen.

Although, usually it's done in a more "conference" setting where they meet to slap each other on the back and then enjoy their vacation/golf outing/dinner at the top restaurants.
post #36 of 42
I don't think it's fair to paint all pediatricians with a broad brush any more than it is to say that all attorneys are money-grubbing, sue-happy slimeballs. Or any more than it is to say that all midwives are under-trained, dangerous wanne-be obstetricians.
post #37 of 42
Yeah DTaP is the one shot I would NEVER EVER give my child.

My kid is at the doctor's all the time (ear infections out the wazoo, 2.5 sets of tubes already!), but we've gone through 5 or 6 Peds to find one I actually like. They haven't even asked us but one time if we were up to date and I said "No, we're not doing them" and he didn't say a thing about it. Thank goodness. We don't go to the doctors for well baby check ups except at 1 year, and we'll go at 2 years. I like to get his stats for the baby book.
post #38 of 42
I noticed a few blank height & weight charts lying around the nurse exam room and I helped myself to a few. Then I just stopped going and filled them out myself.

FYi the forms on about .com are a little different, not as accurate IMo.
post #39 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocJenn View Post
Thanks for the "welcome"!

In IL, Prevnar was "highly recommended, but not required". I still gave it anyway. Then one of my patients told me about MDC and I read a thread about prevnar with links to the CDC. According to the CDC, rate of Strep pneumo (the bacteria that prevnar protects against) meningitis and pneumonia (I've seen both and both are HORRIBLE) have not decreased at all since the vax was introduced. The only thing it has done is: 1. 'decreased the rate of ear infections' (however, just about that time, new recs for diagnosing ear infections were introduced) and 2. it has decreased the rate of bacteremia without a focus (meaning your kids looks sick, have fevers, ears are fine, lungs are fine, but strep pneumo is grown out of a blood culture). Since, IMHO, memingitis and pneumonia rates havent decreased, I don't think it is doing its job.

Besides, It hurts like H**L!! The kids always cry the most after it. I had the chance to talk to the CEO of Wyeth (the company that makes Prevnar) about the pain issue. They haven't done anything about it yet. If I meet him again, I'm gonna have the CDC data in my hand.
Where did you see that Prevnar decreases pneumococcal septicemia?
I've seen stats on Prevnar decreasing "IPD" but the diagnostic criteria for that is pretty vague. It's defined as pneumococcus cultured from "normally sterile sites"...which could, in theory, apply to otitis media.

What I'd personally like to see is stats on "bacterial meningitis" in Prevnar'ed kids compared to placebo kids. THAT would be a good endpoint to evaluate. And then "pneumococcal meningitis" under that.
Fishing out the reality behind the Prevnar stats is a mess. There's pneumococcal replacement disease making everythnig weird right off the bat, and then s.pneumo/staph replacement "bacterial disease" complicating things...and then other inter-species complications going on, too.

Have you been following the research on Prevnar and staph?
Weird, weird stuff.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=574250

Anyway,
, again.

post #40 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela512 View Post
It's funny...I told the moms in my local moms group (which I've been booted from because many of the moms took offense that THEIR precious doctors care more about money and golf outings than the health of their child) about the incentives and all (told directly to me by my friend) and they just about lost their minds. "No doctor would do that!" "My doctor demands full, on time immunizations so that my child doesn't get sick! That's all!" Sure, and I'm sure that he/she is thinking about how healthy his/her bank account is at the same time.

Some people just don't want to know the truth.
Yeah it sounds like she was more angry about HER actions being challenged. Maybe those moms have 2nd thoughts and are just trying to make themselves feel better. I do it everyday myself (my dh received her 1st 2 rounds of vax before I became aware!!).
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