Is there a middle ground ??

[Enchanted Gypsy]

I am a new mom to a seven month old baby and am a bit confused with the various parenting styles.

I feel like I really want to have a game plan nailed down by the time I start really needing it for my DD.

It all seems so extreme, one way or the other to me. It's either punishment or let the kids do whatever they want.

I am definitely NOT into an authoritarian style or spanking and demeaning, but at the same time the extreme child centered, children can do no wrong, permissive thing does not sit well with me either. I would like to believe it could work, that children will just naturally do what is best for themselves without us ever having to say no. I just worry it is a recipe for disaster that will create kids who have no regard for anything other than what they want to do..

Is there a GD parenting style that mixes validation of feelings with the idea that sometimes when all other options have been exhausted, you have to just do things you want to do like...go to school, go to bed at a resoanable time, and many other anoying things that we all have to do...

I am reading Naomi Aldorts book and am liking it, but it does seem a bit on the very permissive side..

Is there a middle ground ??

[Enchanted Gypsy]

Deleted..

[tashaharney]

well . . . as far as middle ground goes, i thought that dr. sears 'the discipline book' was pretty in the center.

or, read a whole bunch of books and take what you like, leave what you don't.

but remember that discipline begins at birth, by building a good, strong attachment to your LO. that way, when they are older, they will trust you to set boundaries, because you love them and not because you're the parent and you can. (if that makes any sense.)

[Twinklefae]

I don't think that there is a book that will have exactly your discipline style in it, as I think that discipline style is something very unique.

The general thrust of gentle discipline is not letting the children do whatever they want, but to understand why they are doing what they are doing, and not assuming that they are doing it just to be "bad".

For example, if your toddler throws a temper tantrum in a grocery store about candy, rather than assuming that she is defying you by not accepting no for an answer, you would realize that it was half an hour past when she usually ate lunch, she's cutting her two year molars and the you'd been out all morning. Therefore, she's tired, in pain and hungry. So an approipriate response would be to offer crackers and a hug and take her home, rather than put her on time out.

HTH!

[allgirls]

For me the key was setting my personal boundaries. The things that are absolutes. They are things like "I must feel safe" and "I must feel respected" and "our property must be respected" and then I apply them as our "rules" in our home.

I also have a lot of patience. I work hard on this. I use meditation and MDC as my own personal tools.

Kids will do whatever they want no matter what the discipline. LOL...the only difference is sometimes it's in another room or there is a violent response from a parent instead of a calm/patient one.

I do not use a patronizing tone with the children. I use a neutral/boring tone to prevent things from escalating.

I do not respond "BIG" to anything. I generally don't make a fuss out of the little things.

and I always keep in mind the "age" of the child. No matter what, this is critical. If a child is having a tantrum at 2 because he didn't get his own way the response will be different then if a tantrum is thrown by a 10 year old.

To me it's about being gentle, consistant and firm. Guidance not punishment. A focus on effort, not result. Sincere praise that is well placed. Emotional coaching and focussing on how a behaviour makes a child feel rather than how it makes me feel.

I am very middle of the road in GD. I am definitely not permissive(except by the standards of the mainstream maybe) and I am most definitely not "non-gentle"

and I am certainly not perfect. I have human emotions. I too get tired, hungry and pms-y and have less than stellar moments. And that's when I apologise and move on.


I think balance is actually key to GD. In both how the child is parented and how the parent is fulfilled. I think mommy burn-out is very unfair to a child and at a certain point we have to step away to prevent burnout.

and also, all of the rules that apply to the kids apply to me as well.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by Enchanted Gypsy

Is there a GD parenting style that mixes validation of feelings with the idea that sometimes when all other options have been exhausted, you have to just do things you want to do like...go to school, go to bed at a resoanable time, and many other anoying things that we all have to do...

<snip>

Is there a middle ground ??

Yep. If you want a book that is pretty close to this, you could read Anthony Wolf's "Secret to Parenting"...the subtitle is, "How to be in charge of today's kids without threats or punishments".

I'm the kind of parent you describe above. I work with my kids a lot of the time to let them get the experiences they want. If we can't come to a solution and I'm out of ideas, out of emotional resources, and out of time, I will compel them to do whatever it is by taking the path of least resistance and making it as fun as I possibly can. I will empathize that I know they don't really want to do whatever it is right now, and that I appreciate them hanging in there with me. I don't punish them for having negative feelings and expressing them, so long as they're not overtly rude or destructive...and even then I don't punish, but redirect their negativity. Along with this I talk with them about getting perspective and realizing that just because something 'needs' to be done, it shouldn't ruin their overall mood...and that sometimes just doing a mundane task and getting it over with leads to being able to do something more fun later. It's very important to me that my kids learn the difference between minor inconveniences and major injustices...the minor inconveniences aren't worth stewing over, but major injustices are worth fighting.

Annnnnyway. I have yet to "punish" either of my kids. But I do set limits (and mine are pretty focused, like respect for people and property, long-term health, and safety - other than that, it's usually not a battle worth getting into), and enforce those limits even if my kids aren't necessarily happy about them at that moment in time. I don't do anything TO them aside from setting the limit, so there's no punishment...but they aren't running amok. I don't micromanage their every move, and I let them explore and make messes and do all sorts of crazy things that many "mainstream" parents would probably frown upon. But I also expect them to be respectful when we are out and about interacting with others. I work with them, and they work with me, and for the most part we live very cooperatively. Sometimes, they aren't able to see all of the ramifications of a decision, and I set a boundary or limit. And sometimes they're not happy about it. And that's OK. I'm not always happy about the things they do, either. But it all evens out in the end.

There are LOTS of options between blind obedience and consensual living.

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

Yep. If you want a book that is pretty close to this, you could read Anthony Wolf's "Secret to Parenting"...the subtitle is, "How to be in charge of today's kids without threats or punishments".

I'm the kind of parent you describe above. I work with my kids a lot of the time to let them get the experiences they want. If we can't come to a solution and I'm out of ideas, out of emotional resources, and out of time, I will compel them to do whatever it is by taking the path of least resistance and making it as fun as I possibly can. I will empathize that I know they don't really want to do whatever it is right now, and that I appreciate them hanging in there with me. I don't punish them for having negative feelings and expressing them, so long as they're not overtly rude or destructive...and even then I don't punish, but redirect their negativity. Along with this I talk with them about getting perspective and realizing that just because something 'needs' to be done, it shouldn't ruin their overall mood...and that sometimes just doing a mundane task and getting it over with leads to being able to do something more fun later. It's very important to me that my kids learn the difference between minor inconveniences and major injustices...the minor inconveniences aren't worth stewing over, but major injustices are worth fighting.

Annnnnyway. I have yet to "punish" either of my kids. But I do set limits (and mine are pretty focused, like respect for people and property, long-term health, and safety - other than that, it's usually not a battle worth getting into), and enforce those limits even if my kids aren't necessarily happy about them at that moment in time. I don't do anything TO them aside from setting the limit, so there's no punishment...but they aren't running amok. I don't micromanage their every move, and I let them explore and make messes and do all sorts of crazy things that many "mainstream" parents would probably frown upon. But I also expect them to be respectful when we are out and about interacting with others. I work with them, and they work with me, and for the most part we live very cooperatively. Sometimes, they aren't able to see all of the ramifications of a decision, and I set a boundary or limit. And sometimes they're not happy about it. And that's OK. I'm not always happy about the things they do, either. But it all evens out in the end.

There are LOTS of options between blind obedience and consensual living.

Yes...Anthony Wolf all the way!!!

and read Jason Neufield "Hold on to your kids" as well. These two books are my main resources though I have probably taken something out of every book I have read.

[Enchanted Gypsy]

Thanks ladies !
I am very happy to hear there are others who are drawn to a middle ground approach. It's just that I rarely hear about it. It seems whenever I bring it up the idea that maybe sometimes our kids have to do things they dont want to, I am assumend to be pro punishment and given a lecture about the virtures of GD.

So..for the record, I am not into punishment,scolding,yelling or smacking. I realize fully that "discipline begins at birth ", I do BF on demand, co sleepand baby wear.

It's just that, I had been raised myself in a house with NO rules, NO excpectations, and also (to be fair) NO validation or understanding...and I wanted all things badly ! I wanted my parents to have chores for me and ground rules. I wanted them to excpect something of me.I could do whatever I wanted when I wanted it.

The question is, how do you communicate them in a gentle way that you need so and so to be done.

For example..picking up toys in the house. In their personnel bedroom is one thing, but in the main living area I feel that,out of respect for everyone and for the energy flow of the house things need to be put away when your done with them.

How do you "enforce" this in a GD way if your kid just does not want to. If you ask them and they say no then you clean it yourself, does that teach them that if they say no mom will do it for them anyway??

[LilyGrace]

Originally Posted by Enchanted Gypsy

For example..picking up toys in the house. In their personnel bedroom is one thing, but in the main living area I feel that,out of respect for everyone and for the energy flow of the house things need to be put away when your done with them.

How do you "enforce" this in a GD way if your kid just does not want to. If you ask them and they say no then you clean it yourself, does that teach them that if they say no mom will do it for them anyway??

I feel as though I am authoritative/arian (er.....whichever means backbone, not brick wall).

Honestly, I have a variety of tricks I use for the above scenario:

- using timers for "10 second" tidies.

- choices It's time to clean up! Do you want to clean up the blocks or the cars first?

- Yogi bear style: taping or marking off small sections to clean one at a time.

- Checklists: more mental but same approach as yogi bear style.

- Jar o'tricks. Adding regular jobs on slips of paper to silly jobs. Hop 5 times. Pick up the trains.

- and last, putting my hand over theirs and doing it that way. "It's time to pick up the blocks!" My hands helping theirs, "That looks so clean! We won't have to worry about breaking a leg in here now!"

[The4OfUs]

yeah to most of what lilygrace said, but at this point (like with my 4-yo) I can't physically put my hand on his and compel him to clean up without a physical struggle...so on the occasions he decides he doesn't want to help, I do it and when I'm done I go to him and tell him (in my neutral, "robomommy", matter-of-fact voice) that I didn't like having to do it myself, that we all need to clean up in our house and that next time I expect him to pitch in. And most of the time he does. Sometimes I don't feel like cleaning up and I don't, so he's allowed to feel that way sometimes, too. If it was an ongoing theme then we'd have to make some changes, but thus far it's just periodic and for the most part he helps tidy whenever we're all working together. The fact that I lay out the expectation that next time he needs to help on the occasions that he doesn't help keeps the consistency without resorting to punishment.

I give very specific cleanup suggestions (let's start with the blocks in this bin....OK, now the cars over here) - instead of, "help me clean up" - I find that more often than not, more specific is better, at least with my kid.

[GuildJenn]

I just wanted to add in another recommendation - Barbara Coloroso's Kids are worth it! talks a lot about how to EVALUATE parenting techniques, and also about how one's background impacts on one's parenting.

I like the Secret of Parenting too.

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I'm definately middle ground. But, for the most part, I am ok with however a family chooses to work things out.

I did not want a child who ran the household. But, I did not want a child who couldn't think for themselves and speak up either.

Spanking or anything that hurt her feelings in any way was out of the question from the day she was born.

It works for us. She's a good kid, she tells me things her friends wouldn't tell their parents.

I am not extreme in one way or the other. My parents and sister in law think I was wrong for not spanking. It made me question my ideas, but in the long run, I was right, and it would have been a mistake to spank or punish her.

My personal feelings are, you read whatever you want, and you take what you like from those books. What you don't like, ignore.

[Joyster]

I don't know what our discipline style is. In some areas we fall under GD, in other areas, we're strict. We don't demean, we don't punish, no hitting or really use time outs (not much point with our LO at this stage). I read this forum a lot, sometimes to learn what to do, and sometimes to learn what probably won't work for our family or style.

Much of our discipline style stems from what works. We let some tantrums burn out because offering options just make them worse (We're always there for hugs or loves). We use distraction big time because it works.

Really, the bulk of our discipline, is trying to avoid any grouchy situations before they rise. We're still learning. We try to cut off any sort of unwanted behaviours in the bud, before they snowball. I don't want my child to be 4 and still acting out his frustrations with pushing or hitting.

A lot of it so far, is just being consistent ad nauseum, positively reinforcing good behaviour and either ignoring, or rerouting unwanted behaviour. There's only a few instances where we'll take unwanted behaviour head on, like in the instance of hitting, in which case, we'll make it clear verbally-without yelling, screaming or demeaning-in no uncertain terms that hitting is not allowed. So far, he hasn't hit anyone, but has pushed us a few times. We do say "no", several times a day in fact. There's also a lot of "be carefuls" (he's soooooo careless, but he's 2.) For the most part, they are safety issues or refusals of cookies. lol Admittedly, "No" is the easy way to go about it, but I don't think it's really negatively affected him, though he uses "No thank you!" a lot on us.

In general though, my LO is pretty easy going. He's very cheerful and has been very kind to us as he is our first and it's a learning curve. He also has a good vocabulary, so he can express his frustrations pretty well with his words. We felt that it was important to get his vocabulary built up so that he could do that. I don't think GD is entirely letting your kids get away with murder. There are scenarios here that mothers have described that I wouldn't handle the same way, but my opposite doesn't even go near demeaning, punishing, yelling or hitting so I do think there is middle ground.

[squirt07]

im glad to see this thread.i am a ftm, with a 14 mo old and another one due in april and i have no idea how to react to him now that hes becomming much more independent and willful. i can only imagine how he will react when his baby sister comes along. my mil is 95% gd and my mom is 95% punishment based parenting so i am very unsure. i know both my husband and i are very middle road. i will look into these books recommended. thanks ladies

[Limabean1975]

Great thread!!

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Enchanted Gypsy

It all seems so extreme, one way or the other to me. It's either punishment or let the kids do whatever they want.

I don't punish, and I have some strict boundaries- those mostly have to do with harming people/animals/property, or seriously disturbing someone. I'm quite comfortable with sticking with my own personal boundaries. Other than that, I don't have many rules. Things are on a situational basis here.
I try to come to a solution when there's a disagreement, though sometimes I just say 'no.' But I try to remember that ds's needs/desires/thoughts are just as important as mine are.
He's quite good at coming up with agreeable solutions!

I have few rules, like I said, but everyone in the house is happy with that. Neither dp nor I care if ds, say, sits at the table throughout dinner. Or if he picks up his toys right after playing with them. We're both quite laid back about a lot of things.

When ds was little, my steps went like this, if he was doing something I didn't want him to do:
1. give information
2. honor the impulse/empathize- recognize that there is a legitmate impulse behind every action. Even if the action isn't acceptable, the impulse behind it IS. This lets dc know that their preferences matter to you. Even if you won't let them do something unacceptable, you will try to work with them to find something they can do.
3. find a way to redirect that honors the impulse- so, if a kid is hitting a window with a stick, find other things that they can hit with a stick, make a game out of the different sounds. Or give them a towel to wipe the window with. Or, perhaps the impulse is something totally different- maybe it was a way to get your attention, in which case the solution would be to spend quality time together. It could be many different impulses, with many more different solutions.

I like the book Loving Your Child Is Not Enough. In it, Nancy Samalin (http://www.samalin.com/) talks about being permissive with feelings, and strict with behaviors.

I doubt anyone would call me 'strict' but I like Samalin's ideas.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Enchanted Gypsy

For example..picking up toys in the house. In their personnel bedroom is one thing, but in the main living area I feel that,out of respect for everyone and for the energy flow of the house things need to be put away when your done with them.

How do you "enforce" this in a GD way if your kid just does not want to. If you ask them and they say no then you clean it yourself, does that teach them that if they say no mom will do it for them anyway??

Imo, no. I've generally given ds the option to help me (there have been a few times I've been really frustrated and *made* him help). He'd help sometimes, and not others.
But he's always been happy to help me with other things- getting a towel for me if I need to clean up something, helping vaccuum, doing the dishes, he'll run and get something for me if I ask. He very very rarely even questions it- he just does it, to help me out. I would hate to interfere with that willingness to help out, because I thought it was important that he clean up his own messes. I didn't want to put the idea of "It's not my mess, I don't have to" in his head, if that makes sense.

Now, at 3.5, he helps quite willingly. Sometimes I do the Anthony Wolf (who I like, btw) "I asked you to help and you aren't. Now I have to do it myself" and ds comes running to help.
I think that it's a transition thing, really. And I think that time is a quite flexible concept for kids. He doesn't really understand that "now" means "now" lol.
He used to be very upset when toys got put away. And I think it took a lot of talking to help him realize that just because the toys were up, didn't mean that he could take them out again to play.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Yes, I think there are definitely middle-ground options. I've just had to spend a lot of time thinking about discipline and how I want the kids to behave and my expectations for the household because we just hired an afterschool nanny. So I needed to put things into general principles for her, so she could work with the kids in a way that I thought was appropriate, without having to stop and call me 100 times a day to ask about "the rules". Even if you don't ever have to actually hire someone, this was a really good exercise for defining my ideals and approaches. I came up with some basic things that I believe about kids and how that informed my day-to-day "kid management". While the day-to-day look of this has changed now that I have older-than-toddler kids, my basic attitudes about the world and children have maintained.

Some of the things that I communicated to the nanny were:
* We don't say "no" reflexively and never without an explanation. If you can't tell them, in age appropriate language, why "no", then rethink your assumptions. For me, this is the broader version of "Don't assume just because your mother said "no" that this is the right answer." Of course, the explanation comes after the fact in emergencies.

* Always try giving the kids information and having them make a decision first (unless emergency). Most of the time, they come up with the right answer and no other intervention is necessary.

* Have very high expectations and then give the kids the tools to meet them.

* Discipline means teaching, not punishing. It is OK to have rules and expectations, as long as they can be explained. It is OK to enforce them GENTLY and with respect, as long as they were reasonable in the first place.

* Well phrased, specific praise is just as important as more negative feedback.

* Showing is more important than telling.

* Rules apply to everyone -- especially the adults who should know better.

* It is OK for anyone to be angry or frustrated. What matters is how that is expressed.

[Klynne]

This thread is so helpful! thank you Enchanted Gyps for getting your question out here. I've been perusing the GD forum for awhile, trying to find answers to different toddler situations one always runs into.

I grew up in a home that was authoritarian. I was expected to do things, and I did them because I just trusted that my parents knew best (lol, I realize after marring DH that not all children are like I was!). My parents set out expectations for me and consequences if those expectations where not met, IE earlier curfew if I did not respect the one they set... As a result I knew I would struggle when i had children, I could sense before dd's birth (thanks to working at a school with 1-4 graders) that I would expected dd to just listen to me and do what I say.

we don't favor a lot of rules in our house(she dances on tables, jumps on the couch, throws balls, in the living room, makes messes with most everything etc...) we prefer to teach her how to do things, like turn on music and use the CD player rather than forbid her to touch the sound system.

But WHEN I ask her to do something, like close the freezer door after she's opened it, i take it very seriously when she DOESN'T listen to me and runs the other way. and I feel that impulse to revert to the style my parents used on me. I don't like it because my parents never really explained things to me, they just said "because" and i had to accept that. I don't want to do that with dd and am doing my best to re-program myself into a more "rounded" parent.

As i read the explanations from you mammas I see that I have misunderstood GD. I see know how relevant it is for me to do my best to understand dd's impulses and work with her.

hope that all made sense

[gentleearthmama]

Enchanted Gypsy
First of all, I did a sneak peek at your blog and I have to say you and your honey did a great job fixing up that Bus! It looks so luxurious inside!
About discipline, I grew up in the opposite kind of house as the one you described, I had to do everything I was told or I got a spanking, grounded, privledges taken away etc. It got to the point that as a teenager I didn't care anymore and just did what I wanted to anyways and my relationship with my parents suffered because of it. I felt like I would be in trouble no matter what, why even try to be "good"
That said, I think Gordon Neufield does a great job in How to Hold on to Your Kids of explaining how the relationship is more important than the behavior, and with a good working parent-child relationship, your child will want to do as you ask.
In real life, its not always easy, but it does work.
Another thing- Every child is different, each age has its challenges, and your relationship with your child will be unique. You will have to sift through all the parenting advice you come across and choose what works for you and follow your own intuition.
I noticed another thread where you asked about Waldorf and the way they discipline. I was a teachers aide in a waldorf school for some time, and I found for the most part, the teacher I worked with let children settle their squabbles themselves, without any or much interferance (although I got upset when my child was punched in the face by an older boy!) When it came to the teacher wanting a child to do something they didn't want to do, like wash hands or do their knitting, or play their flute, she simply (kindly and firmly) insisted. There was no way out, eventually the child would do as she asked. That said, I am sure there are many other ways of dealing with children that work in other waldorf schools.
Personally, I think knowing your child is the most important thing. Food allergies, sensory processing disorders, teething, feelings, can all affect the way a child behaves.
you can always say, we do it this way! and hope your child follows suit.
Hope that helps!
GEM