Should the gov't educate?

[Mallory]

Do you think the government should be responsible for educating the children of our country?
I am going to school and taking education 101 and the people in my class freaked out when I said that I didn't think that it was the governments place to decide on the education of our children.
I also think the whole system really fosters irresponsibility. Teachers always say that if they just had parental support then it would be so easy but our system says we'll tell you when to send you children to school, how long they should go, what they should learn, who teaches, how to tell if they are learning,I could go on and on.
I also feel like many of the other students in my class are going to be public school teachers and that they can be irresponsible too. The things we are learning about they don't really have to make informed decisions about. They are going to work for a school that has a set curriculum, books, rules and they don't really have to do any thing but float along.

I would love to discuss this calmly. I am really looking for answers and I know that just reading a post doesn't really tell you how I feel. I am asking in a very respectful, curious manner. I also know that there are lots of wonderful public teachers and schools out there who work hard and make a difference. I am really just asking about the whole system.

[Isis]

I would *love* to discuss this with you, but am on my way out the door.

Wondering if you have read any books on the subject (there are a few I recommend, and would like to know of any you may know of).

We have rights as human beings, sadly we are treated more and more as if our rights are actually permissions granted by government.

I have lost a good friend over this issue. I am unschooling (with Waldorf influence) and she became a public school teacher.

[sanna]

Mallory,

For me raising this question (whether the gov. has a right to dictate, I mean be resp. for the education of our children) has been very liberating! The more I myself become educated, the more I see the sad inadaquacies taking place in our public schools. To me they seem more like a large institution which is there in order to 'put' kids somewhere while the parents are working. But while the kids are there, they are being taught many things not worthy of them. And the presentation of it can deaden their enthuisiasum for learning.

I am intending on becoming an educator myself. Currently I homeschool my children, and I am a kindergarten aide in a Waldorf kindergarten. One direction I am considering is studying to be a Waldorf special subject teacher (German). This in itself is a difficult decision as I am questioning even sending my children to any school at all. I find learning to be so graceful done in a natural manner (esp. in nature), without rules etc.. At the same time, I recognize the beauty of learning from different (loving) individuals different things such as music, dance, language, art, clay, etc...

Ideally, community based learning would be the most holistic. Since that is sorely lacking now-a-days, perhaps a homeschoolling network or a Waldorf-based community would fulfill our goals (my families).

I realise that there are many public school teachers out there who deeply care for their students and the work they do. Unfortunately so many of them become frustrated with the formula they have to follow, the overcrowded classrooms, the lack of parental and collegial support, the low pay, the tremoundous amount of kids on drugs (ie; Ritalin, etc..), the poor diets these kids have, the sad fate of broken families, etc...

What to do? I myself could not work within such a system, which by its nature is full of misunderstanding of what children really need. I am all for those who try to create new models of schooling. And if this can be done within the public sector, all the better!

Good luck with your path!

[Isis]

Hi Sanna,

How do you like it in the Kindergarten? How old are your children and are any in kindergarten, too?

Like I said previously, I am happily unschooling 2 children. My twelve-yr-old attended K,1,&2 at Waldorf. My daughter attended the Foundation year of W teacher training in utero. She is fast moving out of K age. Meanwhile a p-t K teacher position opened and I have applied. I would love the work- especially the creative aspects of the job and she would love school, but I struggle with the concept of bureaucracy. I soothe myself with the knowledge that they are not a government school, but power always corrupts- even in such a wonderful place.

As with most of my life, what I really want doesn't exist. I need to create it (if only for my grandkids). My ideal would be a cross between a Waldorf and a freeschool, a group of committed Waldorf families working together toward their children's education. There would still be a school day, but not as long as this standard "keep-them-busy-while-we-are-at-work" length. Morning lesson would still be as rich and wonderful as ever, but specialty classes would be optional- this would allow more time for personal interests and nature exploration. Kids are much happier in general in Waldorf schools than I have observed elsewhere, yet many are bored in classes that don't call to them personally, and given a substitute teacher, all kinds of pent-up feelings (from being scheduled and bossed around) emerge. Just like any parochial or public school. Been there!

I can't quite shake the idea that even a well-balanced diet can be force-fed! I want my children to grow up in an emotionally and intellectually nurturing environment where they have time to express their creativity and passions without being pressed on to the next "necessary" subject.
Dream on, I guess.

Meanwhile, there seems like no place better for my daughter and me than in a Waldorf Kindergarten. The Kindergarten is really my model for what any good grades class would be- just add main lesson(!) and leave the afternoon free. As much of a unschooling/freeschool advocate as I am, I still have a deep connection with Waldorf and see myself involved in one way or another. I would love to continue my teacher training. I have no clue whether I will get this job, but if I don't I may just open something up out of my humble home.

[sanna]

isis,
You sound to good to be true! I feel just as you do, about the combo of free (un)-schooling and Waldorf education. That is exactly why I am in such a quandry regarding our educational path!

To bad you are in iowa..?

My children are young, my ds is 5 and dd is 2 1/2 years old. So, when I say I am homeschooling, it isn't quite so, yet. I do really enjoy the Waldorf Kindergarten I work in. My son and daughter both come with me, a real bonus. It is pretty informal, yet very much full of rythym, etc.. My mentor/ their teacher has been teaching for 20 years. And she's great!

I am considering moving to California in order to become teacher certified in Waldorf. Still only in consideration.

Can I send you a PM sometime?

Blessings

[Mallory]

My boys are only 2 1/2 and 10 mo, but we will homeschool. I could never send my kids to public school and the more I learn the more sure I am. I am planning on having my own school (in 8 or so years). I imagine it as a place where we have a set curriculum but children move through it at their own pace. Even to just doing math for a month! I also am thinking mostly about middle school; grades ~4-8.

I believe that if we weren't paying for schools that most people could afford them. I do think that there would be a program to help pay for kids that need $ but with much lower rents and sales tax many of us would be okay. I also think that, though there are expensive private schools, many people would really open schools to help kids and that there would also be many affordable schools.

The size of school districs scares me: In 1960 there were more than 40,000 districs and now there are less than 15,000. How much say can anyones PTA have and how much more power does the government have? ....I have to go sorry
Mallory

[Dot.mom]

I think the gov should be responsible for funding education for all, but should be in the business of providing a full array of choices for all learners. I know this is impossible and once the gov funds something, you have, by definition, a lot more limits on potential than otherwise. As stated in the recent issue of Home Schoolong Mag, "there is no free lunch"

[Isis]

I admit that if there were tax-funded Waldorf or free-schools in my backyard I would be mighty tempted. However, I do not trust the goverment to tell me the truth. I would not trust them with my children.

[Britishmum]

This is really interesting.

If the government was not responsible for education, who would be? Ideally, yes, parents. Ones like the wonderful homeschooling parents who frequent these boards.

But what about those parents who could not be seen to be responsible/capable/able to be responsible for their children's education? It's hard not to seem judgemental, and I've thought a lot about this the past few days, recalling some interesting parents from my teaching days. How could the values of these people be reconciled and their children educated, I wonder.

Eg - the father who told me that he knew I wasn't allowed to give his child 'a clip round the ear' if he misbehaved, so I was to phone him and he'd come into school to do it for me.

vs the parent who didnt want her child to ever have to do art or anything remotely messy, because in their house, mess wasn't allowed, and their clothes were expensive - she'd hold me responsible for new clothes if the child ever got dirty.

vs the parents of children who I never had a rational conversation with because they were either in jail or too intoxicated to talk.

vs the parent who told me that he paid his taxes therefore I was to do whatever his daughter, aged five, wanted because she was a 'little princess'.

vs the parent who told me that his child should not be made to sit next to 'dirty Christians' or 'gypsies'

vs the numerous parents who didnt believe that formal teaching should begin before the age of seven

vs the even more numerous number of parents who believed that formal teaching should begin by the age of five

and so on and so on and so on.

Of course, these are some fairly extreme examples, but not unusual - I could think of a few hundred more even more extreme ones from over the years.

Of course, I worked with children of many other parents who shared similar values to one another, but even amongst those there are some differences that would be hard to reconcile without some sort of overall educational policy - eg whether or not, and how, to teach formal literacy/numeracy and at what age. Few people hold identical views on this.

I suppose an ideal is to have a wide variety of community schools so that parents have 'choice', along with those who wish to home or unschool. But beware - there is a great danger of division amongst communities and this approach will often lead to sink schools in one area and 'great' ones in another, and so the social divide widens. Then you throw in the issue of faith schools - a huge debate in the UK right now - and whether parents should have the right to send their child to a school reflecting only their faith. The concept of 'choice' is not as ideal as it might sound - it can lead to further division and social problems. The children of the poor/less influential end up without a great deal of 'choice' at all!

I think there is a basic dilemma here - about who has rights, the parent, or the child?

That is where the 'government' run education system comes in - the rights of children can be upheld rather than purely those of parents. Do all parents know what is best for their children? Are there perhaps others, who work in the field of education, who might know and understand more?

Of course, education decisions are often driven by politics and appeal to voters with 'quick fixes' like vouchers, 'choice', and promises that can't possibly be upheld. But in my experience, teachers are quite a stubborn group of people, and I have seen passive resistance to government 'initiatives' in the past that have led to them being overturned.

I think there is a lot to be thought about here, it's certainly making me think hard!

[Isis]

I think the field of professional education, like the field of professional medicine, is an open question, and the history of both is interesting and sometimes disturbing. There have been many dangerous theories hailed then disproven in both and yet it all goes on. I am free to choose the health care and the education of myself and my children, thank heavens!

I am also thankful that there is both educational and medical research going on, and I am willing to consider what conclusions (often temporary) are brought forth. I am glad there are hospitals and schools doing their thing. I only use them when it is necessary. The best education and the best health care revolve around simple, common sense practices that are often lost in their institutionalization. For education: good books, good friends, good discussions, mentors, classes, etc. For medicine: good food, good water, exercise, fresh air, etc. For both: lots of love and freedom to move and think.

Admitedly, I would not agree with the methods or philosophies with which all parents are home educating their children, but unless it is proven that they are either neglecting or abusing their children, it is their parental right to educate them as they see fit. I would not call it the responsibility of the government to choose what kind of education a child may receive, just as I would not want the government to choose what kind of religion a family may practice.

In my perfect world would the government be in the business of educating children? No. Is it a current reality? Yes. I could spend my tax dollars more fruitfully at the private school of my choice or use that money to enrich our homeschool experience. The question of "if the government doesn't educate the masses, who will?" is a question assuming the world was full of blithering idiots before those kind, wise governments started enroaching on our rights by placing our children in manditory government schools. Truly, civilization has a long way to go, but we have come so far in spite of our governments, not because of them.

My humble opinion.

[Britishmum]

Isis, I wouldn't say that the world was 'full of blithering idiots' before the people handed responsibility for education to the government. However, the reality was that many children just didnt get an education - unless you call going down a coal mine or working on the land, or going 'into service' an education.

It is a myth that illiteracy for example, is a recent thing - my grandparents lacked education and were almost illiterate, as were many of their generation. Only the rich and priviliged received an education, either at home or in school.

The question is, what rights do children have to be educated? Our children are priviliged - they have parents who are able and willing to educate them, either at home, or in partnership with a school, over which they have some influence. But for many children, that is not a reality. Ideally, yes, everybody would be equipped with good parenting skills and be able to work with the community to educate their children. The reality is far from the ideal.

My examples in my first post were real examples from my own experience of parents who, quite frankly, would not have been able to educate their own children without the help of a school. I don't see that there is much choice but for these schools to be run by a local education authority, answerable to the government. These schools are not perfect, I'll be the first to admit, but are a far superior option to the 'education' that many of those children would receive at home, or in their poor communities, or none at all.

Were children so much better off before mandatory schooling? I don't think so.

[serenapt]

If all parents cared as much about their children's education, then the government wouldn't have to educate so many children. I taught in public school before becoming a mommy and there is absolutely no way that I would send my child to one. But, there are a lot of parents who don't really want to be bothered with the education of their children - and I taught many, many students whose parents told me that the only reason their child was even there was because the law required it and they would be fine with them dropping out after eighth grade - and they didn't mean drop out and be taught at home, either. And, since I will be old one day and my child's generation will be running the world, I would like to think that they are all at least educated in some way. Most teachers that you meet really have the children's best interest at heart and are fighting a losing battle - one in which the parent's don't care and don't support what is going on in the school. So, the teachers are doing the best they can with the circumstances they are given. Is is sad that it is the governments responsibility, but as more parents don't take responsibility, someone has too. Of course, the government isn't going to be responsible for MY child's education.

Kimberly

[Isis]

Britishmum,

I completely agree with you that many people do not care to educate their children (or need and/or desire to work away from their children) and that schools are necessary.

I also believe that law should uphold that education is necessary along with food, water, clothing, shelter and humane treatment for all children birth through age 18.

I agree that in impoverished (or affluent, for that matter) areas, school can be a welcome respite from unhappy home situations. (As in those same areas, home can be a welcome respite from unhappy school situations.)

I agree that teachers in government schools work long and hard to educate their students.

What I don't agree with is that goverment be the creator of schools.

[Britishmum]

Isis, that's interesting.

So who would be your ideal creator of schools?

[Isis]

people

[gena]

I taught in a public school for several years and that is part of the reason I am comfortable sending my child to one. I really think a lot of what is said about public schools is unfair. The people I taught with were some of the most intelligent, dedicated, caring people I have ever known. Admittedly, I live in a good school district, and I'm aware that some are not as good, but I believe the majority of teachers are trying to educate children as well as possible, even if I don't always agree with their methods.

That said, I do think people certainly have a right to make decisions about their children's education. But like Britishmum I cannot imagine a society in which everyone was expected to provide for their own children's education. I too saw many parents who were in no way prepared to do this. I taught special education and before government sponsored schooling, and in this country before special laws were passed granting them access, many children with disabilities were not given the education they needed to live happy, productive lives.

Finally I totally agree that people should run schools. Local control of schools is very important, although some basic standards do have to be applied. For instance, requiring access to education for all children regardless of race, religion, disability, etc. One of the most frustrating things for many teachers is to have legislators who know very little about education constantly coming up with new requirements or programs. If teachers, students, and parents in public schools could make the majority of decisions about the school, that would be ideal.

[Britishmum]

Isis, which people, and how?

Gena, I agree that public schools often get bad press, often unfairly. Like everything, there are bad teachers, mediocre ones, good ones, and great ones. I do think that some people have a negative 'blanket' approach to all schools as a result of bad experiences in their own school history. When you have seen a lot of schools over time, you realise that you can't make overall judgements.

[Isis]

Who would educate the nation's (or world's) young if the government(s) did not do it, and how ?

What a wonderful question!

Often when people ask questions like this, they are assuming that it can't be done. Frankly, I'm not sure it can be done universally, or even nationally. I'm not sure I will see any kind of change in State schooling in my lifetime, but I am aware of a current revolution in education in terms of parents taking their children out of the standard system by homeschooling and creating homeschooling co-operatives, community learning centers, freeschools, charter schools, private schools and schooling initiatives. This is where all worthwhile change really comes from- inspired and active people, not governments.

As I see more lies yearly, monthly, daily coming through the mouths of government spokespersons, and knowing through average common sense that power always corrupts, I ask myself, how much do I need or want the influence of government in my children's lives? It only strengthens my desire to find alternatives with integrity in my own life and the lives of my children.

Do we really think that in order to have something it needs to be provided by the government? Do you really believe that humans or Americans cannot organize schools without being instucted and controlled by government?

I have some ideas, but more importantly, do you?

[Britishmum]

There is a catch 22 here. I think that we agree that some parents are unable to educate their own children adequately either personally or as part of a community initiative, for a number of reasons.

I'd suggest that the reason is often because many parents personally lack the educational background to do this. I'm not talking about college degrees or qualifications as teachers, I"m talking about the level of all-round education - academic, moral, social, emotional - that makes one able to take on such a responsibility.

I've just finished reading 'Inside the Brain' by Ronald Kotulak. He discusses at length the effects of a lack of education upon people and communities, including poor health, earlier death, aggression, gang involvement, alcoholism, drugs etc. The only way I believe that this cycle can be broken would be by providing high quality education for the next generation - not just from age five or six, but also before, through parenting education and high quality pre-school.

How is that going to happen? I don't see that it can happen through 'the people', when the people themselves have lacked the very education that would enable them to do the job themselves. I can't see any alternative but the government providing this sort of education system. Sadly, they probably won't, and the cycle will continue.

Maybe a solution is to have more parental/community involvement in schools as they currently exist. I am not convinced that 'choice' is the answer. It sounds great - just as school vouchers sound great to many people who resent their 'tax dollars' being spent on a system that they don't use. But I witnessed the disaster of pre-school vouchers in the UK, just as many of us predicted. I spent many hours trying to work with the parents whose children most needed quality pre-school to help them/persuade them to fill out the forms and apply for places. Of course, the well-off who understood the system did really well out of it and probably saved a lot of money!

I fear that the current talk of 'increased choice' will lead in the same way just to 'increased division' between the haves and have-nots.

[Isis]

First of all I encourage our lurking friends to put in their 2c worth!

In reply to Britishmum...

Once again you are assuming that all positive change is possible only through government initiative. Are there other ways of thinking? Are there other ways for people to organize? Or are you just accustomed to thinking this way? I am not trying to single you out unnecessarily. My point is, we are so used to thinking that the Government is this magical kind-hearted god-parent who is responsible for all of us citizen-children. I do not feel this way. The nature of power is intoxicating and our leaders are intoxicated. The government is more like a beast which hungers for ever more. More laws to restrict citizens, more power, more money, more influence worldwide. Governments cannot have our best interests at heart because they have no heart. Only greed.

How do we help the poor?

Another wonderful question. Let's continue to debate and ponder, but as citizens let's not forget to do! And not wait for our Godfather to take care of "them". I have been poor myself, and felt fairly devoid of hope for awhile. We did keep afloat by organizing with our neighbors to take part in a not-for-profit food co-op program run through a local church and by the free advice and support of our local La Leche League group.

La Leche League is not a Government run group, yet there are many many meetings in every state. How do they do it? Hey, maybe they are on to something here! This is the kind of thing I am suggesting in terms of education. Yes, people *can* organize for worthy goals. If we waited for the government to create LLL, we would wind up with something overcomplicated, ill-run, wasteful and probably would sell formula. Let's not go there!