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"Extreme" babywearing (pics I took in N. Thailand) - Page 3

post #41 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcgirl View Post
Physics isn't a cultural phenomenon.
No, but risk assessment is. Is it risky? Dangerous, even? To be sure. But the options aren't that or being strapped in a secured carseat in a relatively safe modern car. The options aren't even that or someone spends all their time at home taking care of the baby. The options, generally, for a family like the one in the photos, are that or not working, not getting food, not being able to make or afford shelter, not being able to live. And that sucks, to be sure. But babywearing while motorbike-riding isn't the problem. Extreme poverty is. Given that they live in extreme poverty, extreme babywearing is a pretty neat way of going about life. In my opinion, anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllenSandoval View Post
When I see those photos, I am glad the baby is strapped on instead of just being held.
Yup! (Plus, again with the coolness of the mancarry. )
post #42 of 74
You'd have a heart attack in Iran!



Quote:
Originally Posted by The4OfUs View Post
I guess my objection is based on physics, not on culture.

Crash on motorbike with no helmet/restraint/padding = direct contact with road and potentially other vehicles involved in the crash or driving nearby = likely serious injury, especially head injury.

Crash in car with car seat/restraint/padding/crumple zones = likely no direct contact with road and some degree of shock absorption done by the car, which likely= less severe injury.

I know there are no absolutes and someone can probably come up with several scenarios where a car crash would be worse than a motorbike crash, but I still can't get over the basic mass+acceleration+no protection= BIG ouch.

I'm not saying families who do this are wrong or are bad people, it just makes me worry a lot.
post #43 of 74
I'm not trying to be all zOMG!!!11 I'm just saying it seems dangerous, and while those pictures are interesting and neat, they still worry me. That's all.
post #44 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmIbrahim View Post
Actually, after I wrote my post, I thought to myself...duh I should of added how we had no right to comment anyway as to what they are doing.

Who are we to deem what is appropriate or inappropriate in any culture but our own...and any attempts on our or anyone elses part is merely a sign of North American cultural imperialism...

Its like how Americans tend to think down on Iranian women wearing chadors...yet, Americans have no right to comment...if you dont know the culture nor are PART of the culture...what right does anyone have to make assumptions and deem what behaviurs or manners of dress are apprioriate or inappropriate.
Yes, Yes, Yes....If you don't live there then you have no idea what life or culture is like. You would be surprised at all the people here who think that the "American/western way" of doing things is irresponsible and dangerous (even to the point of drinking cold water when your pregnant).

I could say so much more but......
post #45 of 74
How about istead of "appropriate vs. inappropriate" (which I agree is a cultural assessment),

looking at is as

"dangerous vs. not dangerous"

That's seriously all I was trying to convey - no superiority complex here, cause I get that the option is often do this, or don't survive (in the sense of working, getting food, etc.). It doesn't mean I still can't worry about a little kid riding a motorbike without a helmet.
post #46 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllenSandoval View Post
When I see those photos, I am glad the baby is strapped on instead of just being held.
Yeah, that.

Seems safer to me, if you have go somewhere on bike with a baby.

I used to ride my dad's motorbike all the time - sitting on the gas tank. I had a helmet, but it was much too big - I still wear that helmet that I got when I was 4 - it's still a little big, still, as a Ladies SM.
He always wanted me to sit really still, b/c of the steering issues. Strapped on would have been safer.
post #47 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by widemouthedfrog View Post
Ummm, I've done the swinging one. But with an Ergo. She was sitting on my lap. She loved it!
I do it pretty regularly, actually -- Ergo on back, or sling on front.

Regarding "extreme" babywearing, when I saw this subject, I was thinking of something totally different. Like the time a couple of weeks ago when I was wearing about 55 pounds of kids during a 10 minute walk. That seemed plenty "extreme" to me!
post #48 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by The4OfUs View Post
How about istead of "appropriate vs. inappropriate" (which I agree is a cultural assessment),

looking at is as

"dangerous vs. not dangerous"

That's seriously all I was trying to convey - no superiority complex here, cause I get that the option is often do this, or don't survive (in the sense of working, getting food, etc.). It doesn't mean I still can't worry about a little kid riding a motorbike without a helmet.
But dangerous vs. not dangerous is cultural too. Here, it is actually and truly considered "dangerous" to drink cold water - esp. when pregnant, to leave your house at all in your last month of pregnancy, to have your baby at home, etc. etc. etc. These are things I don't consider dangerous because I didn't grow up in this culture but they are very important "safety rules" within this culture.

I can disagree with them sure. I mean I still drink cold water, I'm in my ninth month and still go out, I am planning a home birth. And they can disagree with me. The people here worry about me - a lot (because my ways are soo different). I'm sure they sometimes think I'm crazy. But we shouldn't downplay the mode or role of certain behaviors within a culture because of our own cultural biases. We can disagree with each other without reproach or disrespect (I am in no way saying that your post was disrespectful or that you are biased btw).

I know there's a line that has to be drawn somewhere esp. when I think of things like FGM. But I think this line has more to do with things that tend to be universally looked down upon such as murder and bodily harm, rape and torture.

Carrying your baby on a motor-bike or drinking cold water don't even approach the tip of that line - at least for me. Culturally, your views may differ.
post #49 of 74
If you actually look at the statistics, I think you'd be surprised. Because of the volume of traffic here and the sheer number of incidents, car accidents are the leading cause of death for children in America. It is truly a fairly dangerous thing to have a baby in a car. For people who have driven motorbikes their whole lives and who are less likely to encounter traffic, it may actually be a safer situation than I put my child in here in the congestion of NJ. Now, Iran may be a different story because they have lots of people on motorbikes in bad traffic. How's the traffic/accident situation there gingerbane?
post #50 of 74
Thread Starter 
I really don't get the controversy...maybe I have been living in SE Asia too long to see anything weird about their 'extreme' parenting practices. Yes, some are dangerous, but their life cannot be compared to ours, it doesn't even occur to me that there is a 'better' , 'safer' way... I don't even think it's weird anymore that construction workers wear flip flops and welders have wear shades!

As I leave my walled-in village every day, my car is assaulted by dozens of barefoot kids banging on my car windows and zig zagging in between moving cars selling flowers and begging. I'm talking 4 year olds. THAT is the kind of stuff that makes me cringe...a family in an unsafe mode of transportation, not so much. (not saying it's safe or recommended, it's not)

Here is another pic, this one from Bali, Indonesia
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...36686/file.jpg

This one from Bohol, Philippines - a family of 5
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...18908/file.jpg

This one is from Vang Vieng, Laos, outside a school, it's rusted barbed wire he's hanging on
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...34072/file.jpg

And here is extreme expat parenting My son taking a nap on a tuk-tuk, going from temple to temple in Angkor Wat, Cambodia
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...62445/file.jpg
post #51 of 74
No, Ilaria.
I actually understand where your coming from.
Im in Iran quite frequently and its like that there.
You just cant compare and I dont think you should. While urban Iran is much the same as any other city, the rural areas...yeah you see some stuff that would make the average North American cringe but it doesnt bother me becos im used to it.

Dang, I WISH I had some pictures of all the families on motobikes while mom has on a flapping chador (okay that DOES worry me becos they get caught in the wheels easily...)

Its good your kids are experiencing other ways of living, I know i'll be glad my son will be as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilaria View Post
I really don't get the controversy...maybe I have been living in SE Asia too long to see anything weird about their 'extreme' parenting practices. Yes, some are dangerous, but their life cannot be compared to ours, it doesn't even occur to me that there is a 'better' , 'safer' way... I don't even think it's weird anymore that construction workers wear flip flops and welders have wear shades!

As I leave my walled-in village every day, my car is assaulted by dozens of barefoot kids banging on my car windows and zig zagging in between moving cars selling flowers and begging. I'm talking 4 year olds. THAT is the kind of stuff that makes me cringe...a family in an unsafe mode of transportation, not so much. (not saying it's safe or recommended, it's not)

Here is another pic, this one from Bali, Indonesia
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...36686/file.jpg

This one from Bohol, Philippines - a family of 5
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...18908/file.jpg

This one is from Vang Vieng, Laos, outside a school, it's rusted barbed wire he's hanging on
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...34072/file.jpg

And here is extreme expat parenting My son taking a nap on a tuk-tuk, going from temple to temple in Angkor Wat, Cambodia
http://www.thekeoghfamily.phanfare.c...62445/file.jpg
post #52 of 74
Here is a picture online taken in Dubai.
While Dubai is not Iran, you see the same things in Iran.

Frankly...I WISH Iranians did babywear becos id rather see the baby in a sling on mamas back or front verses her holding baby in her arms side saddle and YES this is VERY common in the Middle East.

http://www.7days.ae/cj2_photo.php?id=153
post #53 of 74
thanks ladies for sharing- i really enjoy seeing the pictures --
even in this country car seats are relatively new- my oldest daughter rode in a simple baby seat and later what we now consider standard fare--
post #54 of 74
Neat pictures. It's interesting to see how people travel in other parts of the world (other than USA i mean.) Yikes. The lady in Iran needs a sling!!That looks scary.

It really hasn't been that long since we've had car seats for babies or seat belts for anyone in the US. My dh didn't have a carseat as a babe and they didn't wear seat belts either. By the time I was born that was more standard.

There are some things we do on a farm that would really freak people out. Of course we do our best to be safe, but if you are not used to being on a farm, some things would really startle you. (Example: climbing on top of a huge hay stack piled on the top of a moving truck/wagon. And occasionally finding a wiggling snake compacted into a bale. "Is it a copper head?!?" We did that as kids.) The ways we live can be soooo different and one way can be a shock from another
post #55 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
Maybe I am the odd girl out here, but I can't commend what is being done in those pictures. There's nothing cool about doing "extreme" things with a baby who can't consent to the risks being taken. A lot more injury could be done to a baby if a sling malfunction occurred swinging or biking than if one occurred while sitting or walking. I understand that they can't afford ultrasafe cars and that there are cultural differences here, but I am still appalled. That is not cool.
Things are done a lot differently in other countries. I've seen babies in a little basket on the front of a bike, or just held in arms on a bike. I understand how you must feel. It's just a different way of life.
post #56 of 74
Controversy or not, judgment or not...
I was one of those babies in the back of the motor scooter. And if I was old enough to remember, well, I must have been a lot bigger / older than the baby in the pic. And to confirm, my mom has no shame to admit that's EXACTLY how she carried us around. for what it's worth, i recall asking for rides all the time.

Lots of countries are influenced by the western country. I hope bwing becomes more and more mainstream and prevalent here so other cultures will see the alternative to bwing in various life circumstances.

I don't want to get into the "danger" argument but want to share that I've seen TWO babies fall out of a shopping cart. Infant car seats in the passenger seat! A toddler in a booster seat, etc. oh yeah, those were accounts of accidents from the U.S.
post #57 of 74
Okay. I have to say this though...if the family has a scooter, they are not living in extreme poverty, I'd assume. We certainly were not impoverished. Just my mom had to work to keep up with the Jones (or the Chens ) in a country that was quickly becoming industrialized. The scooter was an efficient method of transportation. If you were poor, you ride the bus (probably with the baby on your back too) sandwiched between strangers. And if you were rich enough to have a car, then your baby lays on a blanket in the back seat. But then, you'd have to worry about where to park that big thing and maybe you can't get through small streets, etc.

rambling now...bed time.

eta: my memories are almost 40 years old...if it no longer holds contemporary relevance, my bad!
post #58 of 74
I rode to kindergarten on my dad's motorcycle. I do remember I had a helmet, and had to wear jeans those days, and there was this little strappy thing that tied me to him. I loved the days he was the one to take me to school.

I just remembered that...
post #59 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn View Post
I rode to kindergarten on my dad's motorcycle. I do remember I had a helmet, and had to wear jeans those days, and there was this little strappy thing that tied me to him. I loved the days he was the one to take me to school.

I just remembered that...
hey, similar fond memories but from a different country!
post #60 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn View Post
I rode to kindergarten on my dad's motorcycle. I do remember I had a helmet, and had to wear jeans those days, and there was this little strappy thing that tied me to him. I loved the days he was the one to take me to school.

I just remembered that...
I used to ride around town on my uncle's Harley wearing his helmet. I was about 7 yrs old. Oh, I also vividly remember being disobedient and climbing on the bike when I was told not to and getting a nasty burn on my ankle from the exhaust pipe as a result.

I also remember being small enough that I had to ride in front of him.

Good times. Truly.
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