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Observations of traditional discipline - Page 6

post #101 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by angelcat View Post
she also needs to learn she cannot always have what she wants.
I can't imagine a scenario where a child never learns that lesson.

It's just part of life.

If we choose to take the path to the left on a nature hike, then we can't also be taking the path to the right. Perhaps we could come back and do it later, but we can't do both at the same time--even if we REALLY want to. There are millions of opportunities that life, itself, (without any help from me) shows my kids that they can not always have what they want.

I can't imagine adding disappointment and curt comments to their little lives to drive that point home.

I just don't think it's necessary. In fact, I think the potential for harming the relationship is, over time, very real and sad.

Fulfilling a wish "in fantasy" is a wonderful GD method that many kids respond to. Primarily, I think, because it gets back to what this thread started on--the value of hearing the kid. Empathizing with people makes for more kindness. Dismissing people and their wants makes for more bitterness and anger. And empathizing about something does not necessarily include indulging it.
post #102 of 188
[QUOTE=angelcat;10387452]My parents never supported me in anything I ever dreamed of. They pushed THEIR dreams, that's it. Somehow I survived. I think thta;s what ost paretns do.

I wanted ahorse mroe than ANYTHING for most of my childhood and ttenage years.

I plan to do everything possible for my daughter to do whatever she dreams of btw, but she also needs to learn she cannot always have what she wants. (not sure how successful I'll be on that. I want to give her everything I never had)

QUOTE]

I'm sorry too. Something you said struck a chord in me-- you survived. I grew up similarly, and I did too. But as a parent, I want to do it differently. And I don't think you have to give your daughter everything, or never say no, but I think giving a child a sense of possibility is a gift. We can all have whatever we want but there are choices that will have to be made to get it--are we willing to make those choices? Are some of those choices so unpleasant that they negate the joy of having what you ultimately desire? Someone a few pages back posted about a victim mentality, and feeling like you "have to" do things, and I think this harks back to that topic.
post #103 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post

Fulfilling a wish "in fantasy" is a wonderful GD method that many kids respond to. Primarily, I think, because it gets back to what this thread started on--the value of hearing the kid. Empathizing with people makes for more kindness. Dismissing people and their wants makes for more bitterness and anger. And empathizing about something does not necessarily include indulging it.
yes and it stops whining quite effectively a lot of times as well...so it's gentle and it works. Or I could say "no, you can't have that, you can't have everything you want, stop whining " etc. etc.

I like the "oh yeah, pizza would be awesome..I wish we could find a way to have pizza today too but I don't have any money for it but if I did I'd buy one that was 20 feet around" and eyes get big "I'd get one 40 feet big" and I say "I'd get 7 million pepperoni's on it" and she's say "and a ton of cheese" and so it would go...and then we'd go ahead and eat whatever I made etc.

I love this and so does she. There is no whining or nagging that happens and it's just fun..we both actually enjoy coming up with bigger and better things.

In fact this is the best way I have found to stop the "gimmes" without whining, nagging or tantrums. It's not 100% I guess though off-hand I can't think of a single time it hasn't worked for us.
post #104 of 188
Thank you for this thread. It has been very powerful for me on two levels.

Firstly, the OP's celebration of her own personal growth and change in perspective was lovely. I've had moments like that in my own life, where I think to myself, "I used to think like *that* and now I think like *this*" and then feeling amazed because the idea that I could ever be the sort of person who thinks like *this* often felt damn near unattainable when I was thinking like *that*. Does that make sense? I try to hold onto those moments in my mental "in case of psychological emergency" file to remind myself when I am feeling stuck that there have been times in the past when I have been able to see my own change and growth and that it can happen again.

Secondly, I have been in a what-should-I-be-when-I-grow-up-rut (even though I'm 30yo) for a long, looooong time now. And I have started reflecting back on dreams that I had as a child, dreams that even now that I am finally a grown up I still tell myself are impossible to attain: "You can't have that." "You can't afford that." "That is unrealistic." "You don't know anything about that." "Maybe someday when you are older." Well, someday is here!!! I wishwishwish when I was growing up that I had had the sort of parents like some of the wise mamas here who want to help their children find a way to get what they want, even if it is in incremental steps and even if that dream doesn't come to complete fruition until their children really are grown ups. I wishwishwish someone had laid that foundation for me and helped me break down my goals into conquerable steps that I could master right then, even as a kid, instead of waiting for it all "when I grew up". I am grown up now, and I haven't achieved any of those things that I dreamed of and I still hear that message in my head, that I have to wait until I'm older.

Believe me, the life lesson has been learned: Not everyone gets what they want and you just have to learn to deal with it. Am I really better off this way? Does it really make me a better human being? A more considerate and productive member of society? I don't think so. In fact, I think I'm not offering to the world what I possibly could because my dreams were squelched as a child with the life lesson that not everyone gets what they want (so don't bother trying). I am not offering to my community my passion or creativity or ingenuity or intelligence because "we can't always have what we want", including all of the dreams that would have channeled those qualities. I am 30yo and starting from ground zero on making my life what I want it to be. I am grieving the time that I feel I've lost, but excited to at least finally try. And I'm glad that I am experiencing this shift in perspective now, so that I hopefully don't pass on -- even through normal, every day activities, like trips to the grocery store -- the "you can't/aren't/shouldn't/won't" mindset to my own kids. Every person deserves, and should strive for, more than that.
post #105 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theirmomjayne View Post
How old is your child?
Not sure why this question seems like a trap, but he's 1.5.

(And was also throwing fits in the bookstore, fwiw. We were killing time before his doctor's appointment and he was feeling terrible, so we spent most of the time passing him back and forth, snuggling, swaying, and trying to interest him in looking at books. Fortunately we didn't have any shopping to attempt to accomplish! I suppose someone could easily have wondered why we were dragging our sick kid to the bookstore, but they hadn't been cooped up indoors with him for five days, where he cried pretty much nonstop regardless. At least the bookstore had interesting things to look at.)
post #106 of 188
As You Wish,

That eloquent piece of writing, from your heart, was a wonderful gift. Thank you for sharing it.

I'm learning that often the best healing from our childhood wounds is to break the cycle AND let others know the damage that can be done.

Good luck on your journey!! It's NEVER too late to start!
post #107 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescafa View Post

In my household, getting a pony is not a valid choice. It's an untenable position. And as parents, DH and I can either be honest about that at the outset, or we can use our rhetorical skills to persuade our daughter to come to that conclusion before we have to speak it aloud. She cannot choose to get a pony. See what I'm saying? Honestly, I'd probably choose the rhetorical route myself, but I can't say for sure that it's the more honest and attachment-promoting method.




Well, I don't think anyone likes to be told that they are being inconsiderate, but sometimes it needs to be said, don't you think so? I know that I am sometimes inconsiderate, and while I may bristle when DH calls me on it, I am ultimately glad that he does. I think that's the sign of a healthy relationship and interpersonal dynamic that we listen to each other even when it's not all sunshine and roses. And it's the same with the kids. Sometimes DD1 tells us that we're being unfair, and she's right--and it goes the other way, too. That's just life, life when you live in the world with other people. That's the way I see it, anyway.

Exactly.
post #108 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
I'm not saying that it's always easy -- and I fully realize that some parents are more stretched than others.

I've just found, in my own life, that deciding a particular state is desirable, makes me more inclined to try to figure out ways to make it possible. If I don't think it's even desirable, then I'm way more inclined to dismiss it as not possible.

Why would I want to make something possible, if it's not even something I want in the first place?
yep, this makes a ton of sense. it's kind of like how all the women who think natural childbirth is impossible (and they do exist--they think the pain of childbirth can actually kill you, is dangerous, etc.) are the same ones who say, "sign me up for an epidural in the parking lot!"

truly, they don't want a natural birth, so they dismiss it as basically impossible to achieve.
post #109 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by readytobedone View Post
truly, they don't want a natural birth, so they dismiss it as basically impossible to achieve.
Yes ...

Also, when I used to be more coercive in my parenting, I'd often get myself through some of the really ugly moments (you know, where your child's all upset and you're feeling so yucky about what you're doing ... by "you" I mean general you (and me), no one specific) ...

Anyhow, I'd get myself through those ugly-feeling moments by rationalizing that "sometimes it just has to be this way." Then when I started encountering parents who found it possible to, for instance, promote dental health without forcing toothbrushing, it really put me on the defensive at first.

I mean, I should have been thrilled to learn that I had other options ... but I felt defensive at the thought that I'd been doing this really crummy thing that wasn't necessary at all. Kind of like the Nazis who didn't want to consider that Hitler's theories might be wrong after they'd already slaughtered so many innocent people.

Now when I get into situations where I find myself doing things I don't like, my response is to start planning ways to handle the situation differently next time.
post #110 of 188
I can't believe it took six pages for Hitler and the Nazis to come up!
post #111 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdahoMom View Post
I can't believe it took six pages for Hitler and the Nazis to come up!
I'm not sure if you're giving me the thumbs-up for bringing it up, or everyone the thumbs-up for making it through six pages before someone brought it up. I'll have to go back and see what you've previously posted to get an idea of where you might be coming from!

Of course, I realize everyone here is too reasonable to think I'm calling anyone a Nazi. That was simply the analogy that came to mind, when I thought about the defensiveness I felt when I found out some things I'd accepted as "unpleasant necessities," that were "for the greater good," really weren't necessary at all. Major paradigm-shift for me.

And actually, the only reason anyone might feel offended at being likened to a Nazi, is that we tend to dehumanize Hitler and his followers, in a manner similar to the way that Hitler dehumanized whole groups of people.

I think it's important to realize that many atrocious acts are committed by human beings following wrong theories, who have somehow persuaded themselves that the crimes they commit are "necessary evils."
post #112 of 188
Thread Starter 
I think she's referring to Godwin's Law.
Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
post #113 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruhbehka View Post
I think she's referring to Godwin's Law.
Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
And here I thought I was being so creative!
post #114 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post

Fulfilling a wish "in fantasy" is a wonderful GD method that many kids respond to. Primarily, I think, because it gets back to what this thread started on--the value of hearing the kid. Empathizing with people makes for more kindness. Dismissing people and their wants makes for more bitterness and anger. And empathizing about something does not necessarily include indulging it.

I disagree. In some situations it would be indulging the child to empathize with them, even if you don't give them what it is they are wanting. This comes up very rarely for us, but if the child's 'want' is really excessive, showing empathy or turning it into a fantasy sends the child the message that it's okay to be materialistic, it's indulging that feeling of selfishness that prompted the child to say "I want___" in the first place. When your child is whining for a toy for example (which apparently many here are so lucky this has never happened to them...but anyway) if your repsonse is "yeah, wouldn't that be nice to have that" it seems like a reinforcement of materialistic values. I don't think that's the best response for kids who already have so much more than they need anyway. I think the distinction between wants and needs must be taught and reinforced by the parents. That's my opinion. I show my DS loads of empathy and kindness, he isn't going to be filled with resentment because I occasionally tell him matter-of-factly that he doesn't need yet another hotwheels car or box of legos. On the contrary, I've found it works the best for my DS (who was born to argue) because it's a very common sense, blunt, and truthful answer.
post #115 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Yes ...

Anyhow, I'd get myself through those ugly-feeling moments by rationalizing that "sometimes it just has to be this way." Then when I started encountering parents who found it possible to, for instance, promote dental health without forcing toothbrushing, it really put me on the defensive at first.

I mean, I should have been thrilled to learn that I had other options ... but I felt defensive at the thought that I'd been doing this really crummy thing that wasn't necessary at all. Kind of like the Nazis who didn't want to consider that Hitler's theories might be wrong after they'd already slaughtered so many innocent people.
Hey, thanks for comparing parents who enforce dental health "kinda like the nazis". I really appreciate that. I am glad it is possible for you to get your children's teeth brushed in a non nazi-like manner, but I have tried everything and I do mean everything to get them to brush. And I even let them skip brushing some nights when it was too much of a battle. Guess what? My oldest had major dental surgery under general anesthesia before he was even 4 years old. My 3 year old has a little bridge of tiny artificial teeth on his top 4 front teeth, because they came in with enamel defects, and he had so many visits to the dentist to get fillings by the time he was 2 that they finally put a little partial in there because the teeth were wearing away so badly and I couldn't keep putting him through that.

So, no, the only other option for my kids would be serious infections/gum disease/more cavities, etc, etc, etc. It's just simply not as black and white as you seem to think it is for everyone.
post #116 of 188
I think the Nazi comment, while I believe ill-advised because it minimizes the suffering of those who were tortured and killed in the Holocaust, has been clarified. I don't think my children are not particularly materialistic because I'm "lucky." I believe that I shared real views of the what and why my kids are generally contented, caring and non-selfish people.

In spite of health challenges that included a 2 year hearing loss, diagnosed and painful food allergies and sensory difficulties.

And I think that anyone interested in what I have to say has probably read it. I hope it's been helpful to you.

I'm getting the feeling that anyone who was interesting in discussing the relief and joy that come from this particular paradigm shift has gotten all they can out this thread, so I'm going to wander away.
post #117 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&IsMama View Post
It's just simply not as black and white as you seem to think it is for everyone.
Wow! And here I thought I was encouraging more openness to the possibility that everything's not so black-and-white: i.e. force toothbrushing or let your kids' teeth fall out ... and all I've been saying is getting perceived (at least by one person) as "the whole world is divided into black-and-white, either/or scenarios."

I've learned my lesson about using the Nazis to make analogies: not only is it not creative or unique (it's actually so common there's a "law" about it!), but it leads to my ideas getting perceived way differently than they were intended.

I'm sorry about the dental difficulties! We're actually needing to seek a dental evaluation for one of our dd's, who's having some tooth issues in spite of our managing to find agreeable ways to keep her teeth cleaned.

I've been exploring various theories about all the factors that affect dental health, and I no longer believe it's 100% related to toothbrushing.
post #118 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
I think the Nazi comment, while I believe ill-advised because it minimizes the suffering of those who were tortured and killed in the Holocaust
This is an excellent point, and one I hadn't thought of. What I've learned here is leading me to think very carefully in future about what analogies I decide to use.

And I hope my ill-planned comment hasn't now made it impossible for anyone to get any more out of this thread.
post #119 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by mz_libbie22 View Post
I disagree. In some situations it would be indulging the child to empathize with them, even if you don't give them what it is they are wanting. This comes up very rarely for us, but if the child's 'want' is really excessive, showing empathy or turning it into a fantasy sends the child the message that it's okay to be materialistic, it's indulging that feeling of selfishness that prompted the child to say "I want___" in the first place. When your child is whining for a toy for example (which apparently many here are so lucky this has never happened to them...but anyway) if your repsonse is "yeah, wouldn't that be nice to have that" it seems like a reinforcement of materialistic values.
I think it's totally developmentally appropriate for children to be egocentric and to want stuff sometimes. Even if they have 50 of the same thing at home. It's not bad, it's not materialistic, it's just the way kids think. I figure, I can empathize with my child and discuss the issue with them, or I can send the message that there is something wrong with them because they experienced a desire that is totally developmentally appropriate (which is the message they'll get about that desire if I tell them they're being selfish, and/or my tone and body language convey distaste/disapproval of their selfish desires). And just part of being human--hey, sometimes I want stuff I don't need, too, and I'm all grown up (and anyone who knows me would laugh at someone calling me materialistic).

I have found that empathizing with them regarding their disappointment over not being able to buy something, absolutely does not reinforce materialistic values. It reinforces compassion for other human beings and their feelings. It moves the focus from the material to the human, and teaches a lot about considering others. My kids are not materialistic. And yes, occasionally they do whine in the store about getting stuff. They do more often simply ask politely, knowing that they'll receive a compassionate, thoughtful response that validates and considers their feelings and desires.
post #120 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
And I hope my ill-planned comment hasn't now made it impossible for anyone to get any more out of this thread.
Not at all. I think this thread has been useful, despite the derailing.
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