Observations of traditional discipline - Page 2

[ssh]

My DD, at 25 months, loves browsing in shops sometimes. She especially likes the Tibetan import shops with all the brightly colored clothing, wooden masks, and stuff. We go window shopping in the winter for an out door activity sometimes. The sidewalks downtown are one place the snow is always cleared off.
When we have to do shopping and she obviously doesn't want to........ I take her home. I usually ask her if she wants to go home and stay with daddy while I come back again later. Sometimes she does, and others she calms down so we can finish. It's getting better now than it was a few months ago. I let her walk and 'help' push the cart.

[monkey's mom]

OP, I love when you can actually see how you've shifted perspective like that!

Congrats on your progress on your journey!

[ruhbehka]

Originally Posted by ssh

My DD, at 25 months, loves browsing in shops sometimes. She especially likes the Tibetan import shops with all the brightly colored clothing, wooden masks, and stuff. We go window shopping in the winter for an out door activity sometimes. The sidewalks downtown are one place the snow is always cleared off.
When we have to do shopping and she obviously doesn't want to........ I take her home. I usually ask her if she wants to go home and stay with daddy while I come back again later. Sometimes she does, and others she calms down so we can finish. It's getting better now than it was a few months ago. I let her walk and 'help' push the cart.

DS enjoys "shopping together," too. I find that when I try to shop and bring him along, but I don't involve him, it doesn't end well. When I try to shop with him and he's tired or cranky, we are not going to make it through the store without WWII erupting.

Generally we try to shop over the weekend as a family, so we have the option of taking DS out of the store to play elsewhere, if needbe. But he has an extremely short attention span and can't sit still, certainly not in a sling, so trying to get in and out of a grocery store alone with him is really hard.

Today we ate blueberries for lunch rather than brave the grocery store alone. Does that make me a better mom than the one who is gutsy enough to go to the store and deal with the tantrums?

[L&IsMama]

Originally Posted by ruhbehka

Generally we try to shop over the weekend as a family, so we have the option of taking DS out of the store to play elsewhere, if needbe.

Today we ate blueberries for lunch rather than brave the grocery store alone. Does that make me a better mom than the one who is gutsy enough to go to the store and deal with the tantrums?

That's what works for you, that's great. But it doesn't work like that for everyone. There are simply times that I have to take both kids shopping. And there have been times where I have taken them, even when they didn't want to go, because I needed to get out of the house for a bit. Like a PP said, I do many things for them that bore me to tears, and I feel that they are old enough to be able to handle a trip to Target, or some other store that I want to go to.

[mytwogirls]

I "have" to get things done, I don't have a choice around here. Yes, I make a strong effort to make sure everyone is in a great mood, fed, happy and content, but bottom-line is if I have to get groceries, pick of meds, or anything, the girls have to come along. Last time I checked, I was the parent, and I make the rules of the house and although I do take my girls' thoughts into consideration, if I need to do something, then I will and they will have to learn they don't always get what they want. That said, I do not take them shoe shopping, or just browsing for things. I do that on my own time, alone..I can enjoy myself a LOT better that way.

[DariusMom]

Originally Posted by MamaOutThere

Did anyone read this? I think I misjudged the whole scenario, which is quite easy to do when related by someone besides the mama herself. I'm not sure why I even bothered to participate in this thread.

Again, sorry that so many of you are offended by my words.

I handle my shopping in a way that I find efficient for my family. You can all do what you want.

Thanks,
Unsubcribing

I did!

FWIW, I think the subsequent discussion was more about the general idea of how much you shopping you *have* to do with kids and what some alternatives are. I didn't feel a lot of that discussion was directly aimed at your post. I think on the GD forum there is a lot of back and forth about CL, and this fell into that dialogue.

I can imagine you'd feel hurt, though.

[EviesMom]

I'm also kinda wondering if it makes a big difference with 2 or more kids versus 1 child. Most people I know with very consensual living parenting styles have only 1 child, or 2 children spaced far apart (7+ years). Ds is only 3 months old and we've already had situations where he needs to leave, dd does not want to leave. OP, I get that you're looking at parenting and effectiveness differently, and that's great, but I'd also caution that your child is young yet and you only have 1, so don't count at any point on a particular "method" or even "mindset" being a panacea for all ages.

[IdahoMom]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

I'm also kinda wondering if it makes a big difference with 2 or more kids versus 1 child. Most people I know with very consensual living parenting styles have only 1 child, or 2 children spaced far apart (7+ years). Ds is only 3 months old and we've already had situations where he needs to leave, dd does not want to leave. OP, I get that you're looking at parenting and effectiveness differently, and that's great, but I'd also caution that your child is young yet and you only have 1, so don't count at any point on a particular "method" or even "mindset" being a panacea for all ages.

Bingo.

[allgirls]

For me it's not only about always doing what they want right in that moment but helping them through when we can't do what they want because no matter how consentual we are we still have times we find it hard to compromise..that goes for the adults and the children in the family.

Friday is our shopping day. It's also play group day. Sometimes they have trouble with the shopping and it helps to remind them that we have to get this done quickly so we can get to playgroup. Occasionally they meltdown because we are not finished and I hug them and let them know I understand that it's hard to wait, while mommy gets teh groceries.

I am on my own with 4 kids. My dh is a long-haul truck driver so no matter I have to pick up food and run errands with kids in tow. It usually goes really well but sometimes it's tough on them and me.

OP..I thought you were more talking about the change in how you viewed things differently rather than judging the mom so much. I think I get what you were trying to say. That this mom seemed to be doing things the way you used to do them. It was just an observation on your part of a change in YOU rather than sitting in judgement of what the mom was doing. That's how I read things anyway.

I see people do things all the time that I observe to be traditional discipline. I often can see a different way of doing things. I believe the way I do things is better else I wouldn't be doing them. That's not so much a judgement as an observation.

It's like a gentle shift in perspective that goes along with the move towards gentler discipline.

[Magella]

Originally Posted by ruhbehka

It was kind of an interesting experience, because we both realized how far we had come down the gentle discipline spectrum...

This time, we both watched this and thought, "This little one clearly doesn't want to be book shopping right now, and she is trying harder and harder to convey that message to her mom, who isn't seeming to get the message."

It was just kind of neat to realize how differently we interpreted this family's interaction than we would have years ago. And it really did bring home a point I'd recently read, that children act according to how they feel.

Just wanted to share, and say thanks to everyone who has encouraged mamas here to consider situations from a child's POV.

Originally Posted by ruhbehka

I was reflecting more on how I would have previously "indicted" the toddler for misbehaving, and now I tend to realize that the toddler is just trying to communicate her feelings about the situation as best as she knows how.

I hear what you're saying, OP. It is neat--the sudden realization one can sometimes have about how differently one thinks now as opposed to "back then." When you realize how much you're perspective has changed. And how good that realization can sometimes feel, when you recognize all the good your change in thinking/perspective has brought to your life.

[ruhbehka]

Originally Posted by L&IsMama

That's what works for you, that's great. But it doesn't work like that for everyone. There are simply times that I have to take both kids shopping. And there have been times where I have taken them, even when they didn't want to go, because I needed to get out of the house for a bit. Like a PP said, I do many things for them that bore me to tears, and I feel that they are old enough to be able to handle a trip to Target, or some other store that I want to go to.

Dude. I fail to see where I said that you should do things that way. I get that people have to shop alone with kids at times. Even I do, once in a while, and I hate it, do my best, deal with the tantrums, and swear that it won't happen again, so help me God.

[And honestly, you clearly don't have a kid like mine, or the horrors that would ensue when you dragged him, "not wanting to go," because you "needed to get out of the house" would be enough to ensure that you never, ever wanted to leave the house. For any reason. Ever. Again. Well, maybe with a paper bag to put over your head. ]

If your kids tolerate shopping better than that, hey, more power to you. I never said that she should have left the store. Just that, in the past, I would have seen her LO's actions as misbehavior, and now I just saw it as the LO's attempts to communicate her dissatisfaction. At 2.5 years old, most LOs couldn't do much better.

That says nothing about whether the mama should have encouraged her to make the best of the situation, or have left, or whatever. That's a decision that's up to the mama.

[ruhbehka]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

I'm also kinda wondering if it makes a big difference with 2 or more kids versus 1 child. Most people I know with very consensual living parenting styles have only 1 child, or 2 children spaced far apart (7+ years). Ds is only 3 months old and we've already had situations where he needs to leave, dd does not want to leave. OP, I get that you're looking at parenting and effectiveness differently, and that's great, but I'd also caution that your child is young yet and you only have 1, so don't count at any point on a particular "method" or even "mindset" being a panacea for all ages.

:

How in the world does acknowledging that children communicate their feelings through their actions equal a "very consensual living parenting style"?

I give up. I am done trying to explain my rationale for starting this thread.

[ruhbehka]

Originally Posted by allgirls

For me it's not only about always doing what they want right in that moment but helping them through when we can't do what they want because no matter how consentual we are we still have times we find it hard to compromise..that goes for the adults and the children in the family.

Friday is our shopping day. It's also play group day. Sometimes they have trouble with the shopping and it helps to remind them that we have to get this done quickly so we can get to playgroup. Occasionally they meltdown because we are not finished and I hug them and let them know I understand that it's hard to wait, while mommy gets teh groceries.

I am on my own with 4 kids. My dh is a long-haul truck driver so no matter I have to pick up food and run errands with kids in tow. It usually goes really well but sometimes it's tough on them and me.

OP..I thought you were more talking about the change in how you viewed things differently rather than judging the mom so much. I think I get what you were trying to say. That this mom seemed to be doing things the way you used to do them. It was just an observation on your part of a change in YOU rather than sitting in judgement of what the mom was doing. That's how I read things anyway.

I see people do things all the time that I observe to be traditional discipline. I often can see a different way of doing things. I believe the way I do things is better else I wouldn't be doing them. That's not so much a judgement as an observation.

It's like a gentle shift in perspective that goes along with the move towards gentler discipline.

Thanks.

[mytwogirls]

I do hear you about the shopping thing. Check out the thread "I can never go grocery shopping again" That's my thread I started so I am stuck too. I just said sometimes you do what you gotta do and kids are gonna embarrass ya and they will, they are kids. I see where you are coming from though. I don't visit friends or go anywhere unnecessary when my two are crabby. They clearly don't want to go and it just gets worse if I do take them. I hear ya.

[angelcat]

Originally Posted by L&IsMama

Sometimes people don't have a choice, and have to take their kids shopping with them. Sometimes the kids don't particularly enjoy it. What choice do you have when you *have* to get something done, though? :

Exactly.

Originally Posted by chfriend

And somehow I manage to have a partner, have 2 kids, have a job and get us all fed and dressed.

I'm happy for you.


Not everyone has the luxery of shopping alone. I VERY rarely do. Meanwhile, i have to buy food, once a week it's for work, so I can't just leave wihtout finishing, no matter what.

And a trip to a bookstore can be something you need to do. I might need a calandar, or a day planner, or a cookbook or parenting book, and I don't shop online.

I don't get all the judment on what is "neccesary" for someone else. Just worry about what you (general) do!

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by ruhbehka

Just that, in the past, I would have seen her LO's actions as misbehavior, and now I just saw it as the LO's attempts to communicate her dissatisfaction.

Pretty much the crux of GD, as defined for this board.

[ruhbehka]

Originally Posted by mytwogirls

I do hear you about the shopping thing. Check out the thread "I can never go grocery shopping again" That's my thread I started so I am stuck too. I just said sometimes you do what you gotta do and kids are gonna embarrass ya and they will, they are kids. I see where you are coming from though. I don't visit friends or go anywhere unnecessary when my two are crabby. They clearly don't want to go and it just gets worse if I do take them. I hear ya.

I just happened to read that thread and noticed it was you.

My LO (17 mos) has a really hard time with grocery shopping, in particular. If I try to go alone with him, I can count on him:

- climbing out of the seat (or screaming/kicking/flailing nonstop, if buckled in)
- throwing everything out of the cart (if sitting in the big part of the cart)
- throwing fit after fit if being carried (and I mean every five steps through the store!)
- taking off running, or pulling all the cans off each shelf, if I let him walk
- running off while pushing the cart (full speed ahead!) or throwing himself on the floor screaming if I insist on steering or keeping him from flying away with the cart)
- kicking, biting, and screaming if I try to keep him in the sling for more than a minute or two

Hmm. Did I leave anything out? You can imagine how impossible it is to try to actually shop at the same time as trying to reign all of the above in.

I can't imagine what mamas with deployed husbands (or other long term away husbands) do, if they have a LO like mine. We'd eat nothing but chinese food for months.

[chfriend]

I really understand what the OP is saying. And I understand that the people who feel like they have no choice but to interpret their very young children's communication as misbehavior (as in the original post) really do feel they have no choice.

Folks need a calendars and they can't print one for free off-line. Or find any other solution.

If you believe you have no choice, you don't, I get that.

I found I really do have a choice. And my kids aren't 7 years apart.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I found I really do have a choice. And my kids aren't 7 years apart.

Yes, me, too!

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by IdahoMom

I just love these "I'm a better mom than you" threads.

I just love how, whenever people share how they've grown and changed, someone has to come on and tell them how "judgmental" they are. I agree with ruhbehka: The above quote sounds pretty judgmental and "I'm a better person than you"-ish.

The OP has shared how, in the past, she would've seen the child's behavior as something that needed to be "corrected" -- but the other day she saw the child's behavior as a means of communication. That's a huge paradigm-shift!

I don't think anyone was implying that such a paradigm-shift is a 100% guarantee that our kids will never have a meltdown in a public place. And I definitely don't think anyone was saying that it's appropriate to look at a mother in a difficult situation, and judge her as not practicing gentle discipline, or not listening to her child.

However, I DO think our views of children, human nature, and the parent-child relationship have a powerful effect on how we handle shopping trips and all the other activities of life.

For instance, if we have the view that "parents shouldn't bend to children's every whim," or that "children need to sacrifice for us sometimes, because we do so much for them" -- we may not even see it as good parenting to try to arrange our lives so that our little ones don't have to go shopping if they don't want to.

If, on the other hand, we see it as desirable to help the people we love to have the kind of lives they want, then we won't feel we're being lax as parents for, say, cutting a shopping trip short rather than making our kids stick it out so they can learn to deal with the boredom and frustration.

Therefore, I think the "don't bend to children's every whim" paradigm is more conducive to a view that "sometimes it's not possible for everyone to have what they want." Someone with this view is less likely to try to brainstorm solutions where everyone can have what they want (or even to think that getting what we want is good for character) -- which tends to result in a reality where there aren't very many options and it's always somebody's turn to "bite the bullet."

In contrast, the idea that it's good for people to get what they want is conducive to a view that we can find ways to achieve this. We may be momentarily too tired or stressed to keep looking at the situation from different angles until the best solution is found: we're only human. But since we see it as a good thing to help our children be happy, we're naturally going to be more open to thinking about other options -- which tends to result in a reality where our options are continually increasing and no one's having to "bite the bullet."

If anyone's feeling like this post is judgmental, I hope you'll go back and reread the bolded part!