Observations of traditional discipline - Page 4

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I don't want my kids to learn that they have to do things they don't want to. I want them to be 100% in charge of their bodies and minds and not do anything they are not willing to do just b/c someone else tells them "they have to."

I think "have to" is sort of "victim speak." When I say "I have to do xzy..." I've taken my responsibility, choice, and free will out of the matter.

(snip)

Choices are good. Better than "have to" I think. "Have to" seems like a burden I don't want my kids to "have to" have.

(snip)

There are ways to "hear" a child and make her discomfort more comfortable that don't necessarily involve bailing on the errand.

Exactly!

[L&IsMama]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

Yes, shopping is over-stimulating and confusing sometimes, even for adults! But that's how we gather food and supplies for our day to day lives, and children need to learn how to function in our world. Or, if they're not interested in learning about shopping, errands, etc, that day, they need to learn how to cope with things that are tedious or boring.

I find it odd that some folk think that children should be sheltered from every single thing that they aren't thrilled about. How are they going to learn patience and adjusting to things that aren't immediatly thrilling, etc??

I can't count the number of times I waited in line at the BANK with my Mom. How boring!!!

Did I scream and kick and flail and demand that I be entertained? No. Did Mom wait at home until a neighbour could watch us before she could leave the house and go to the bank? NO.

Mom just said to us: "We're going into the bank and it will probably be boring, but you MUST be quiet and not run around." So, I took some of the deposit slips and drew on them, making my own money and cheques and such. In other words, I dealt with it, as my parent EXPECTED me to. Jeez, and this was with a five year old and THREE two year olds, with no spanking!

I think there's such a thing as expecting too LITTLE of children. Life is not always going to be perfect and tailored to their whims and preferences, they live as part of a functioning family, not little Kings and Queens, and shopping and errands need to be done!

A really big :

[Jescafa]

Wow, I had no idea this was such a sexy thread. My girls *love* to go grocery shopping, so I guess that means that I kick all of y'all's butts as a parent, huh? Free samples and great big toy cars to ride in; what's not to love?

Honestly, they're very hit-or-miss with shopping. They love bookstores. Like Target well enough but they tend to drive ME a bit crazy when we go there together. I'd rather stick pencils in my eyes than go clothes shopping with them. And if they were tired and/or hungry they wouldn't even want to be at FAO Schwartz with Barbie and the Disney Princesses and the American Girls all holding one big honking tea party.

Originally Posted by Writerbird

It seems like this thread split into two camps - those who thought that the mother and child should therefore leave the store, and those who thought the mother and child should complete the errand.

I disagree--it seemed to me like it was split between those who thought that the child needed to go home as soon as possible, and those who thought he shouldn't have been there in the first place. That shopping is too "overstimulating" for toddlers. And I think a lot of people bristled at the latter idea. Lots of people, as has been observed, have no choice but to take their kids shopping, and many others of us shop with our kids regularly (though God knows not always) with pleasure and harmony.

[L&IsMama]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

As monkey's mom has mentioned, we sometimes choose to do things we don't feel like doing -- not because we're forced but because we like the results of having them done.

I have to disagree. My 3 and 4 year old are not old enough to make certain choices, based on results, yet. If I left those choices up to them, My 3 year old would have been dead from being hit by too many cars to count (because after all, he swore he absolutely wanted to be hit by a car) both kids would have rotted teeth from lack of brushing and dental visits, and probably some sort of parasitic disease from begging and screaming for me to stop and let them pick up roadkill while driving down busy roads.

Do you see where I am coming from? My kids do not yet have the maturity, or rational thought processes to make decisions for themselves, whether the results are good or bad. That's why I either help them make the decisions, or I make the decisions for them. In the above examples, I had to make the decision to not let my 3 year old run into an oncoming car, to hold them down to brush teeth every night, and to explain to them why it is not healthy to pick up animal carcasses.

So I suppose we do choose to do things based on the results. I choose to make decisions for my childs well-being that they are not mature enough to make yet.

[Trinitty]

"Mommy, let's pick-up the dead skunk!!"

I can't wait until I get these suggestions. That's going to be the entertaining part of being a parent!

Trin.

[mz_libbie22]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

if we have the view that "parents shouldn't bend to children's every whim," or that "children need to sacrifice for us sometimes, because we do so much for them"



In contrast, the idea that it's good for people to get what they want is conducive to a view that we can find ways to achieve this. We may be momentarily too tired or stressed to keep looking at the situation from different angles until the best solution is found: we're only human. But since we see it as a good thing to help our children be happy, we're naturally going to be more open to thinking about other options -- which tends to result in a reality where our options are continually increasing and no one's having to "bite the bullet."

I don't understand how you can equate what I said with wanting children to "sacrifice" because of some parental feeling of entitlement. I don't see the connection.

The underlined is the main difference in how I view things. I refuse to hold myself responsible for helping my DS feel happy every time he gets upset. He chooses his reaction to situations, not me. I don't try to control his emotions. If he has a valid reason for being upset, I will definately talk with him, sympathize and comfort him. If I feel it's an overreaction, or if he's simply being selfish, I'll say so. For example, I'm not one to try to compromise and give out hugs when my DS is bemoaning the terrible injustice of not owning the entire Lego catalogue. To do so would be enabling greed. My goal is to raise an unselfish and mature adult, not to have a constantly contented child.

[allgirls]

L&Ismama...you quote mammal_mama where she talks about we as adults get to choose and you say you disagree, then go on to talk about how your children don't have the ability to make choices.

I am not sure I understand what you mean.

Maybe you could explain it again. I am not sure how adults having the choice to do things they don't want to do and how that relates to the rest of the paragraph about children not having the maturity to make those choices.

I might just be reading it all wrong...going back to review.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by L&IsMama

I had to make the decision to not let my 3 year old run into an oncoming car, to hold them down to brush teeth every night, and to explain to them why it is not healthy to pick up animal carcasses.

So I suppose we do choose to do things based on the results. I choose to make decisions for my childs well-being that they are not mature enough to make yet.

I agree with the second part and disagree with the first--just because of the "had to"/choice difference.

You didn't *have* to hold your kids down to brush their teeth. You *chose* to do that based on a variety of things--all well intentioned, I'm *certain.* Lots of people CHOOSE not to do that. Maybe it's b/c they don't care about dental health, or they're inattentive parents, or they're willing to sing to make it more agreeable (NOT that you haven't tried that...just an example), or any number of other things that may or may not result in rotted teeth.

But it's a slippery slope, I think, when we get into that, "Well, it HAD to be done," when we're discussing a child getting the short end of a stick.

I know many of us were treated, as children, in ways that were "for our own good." But the relationship betw. us and our parents was damaged in the process.

For me, when I'm entering that "have to" or "for their own good" state of mind, I'm not focused on the moment and the way my child and I are connected in that moment. I'm looking past them and our relationship and focusing on a mindset or an outcome that may never materialize.

Responding to, and meeting, my child's needs is paramount to me. If, for whatever reason, my kids are not coping well in a situation, then I'm going to do something about that. Not just approach it from a perspective that they need to deal with it and consider it a lesson in getting used to life or hardship or whatever. If I took my elderly father to a store and his legs wore out and he was unable to cope with the situation I would do something about that, too.

It doesn't mean that I never take them out. It doesn't mean that they can't or don't handle being in a store the vast majority of the time. But there are times, where I know we have reached the limit and they are expressing that and my *goal* is to respond to them in a way that acknowledges their situation and change it up. And most of the time now, with my 6 and 2.5 yr. olds, it's to ask them to hang with me for another little bit and would they like a drink or to sit in the cart or something like that. They are most accomodating when I ask them for a little bit more. And I'm starting to think it's b/c they're sure that when it's their turn to ask, it's going to come back around. Modelling consideration goes a long way, I've found. "Suck it up" comes around just as easy, I've also found, in some of my not so finer moments.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by Writerbird

It seems like this thread split into two camps - those who thought that the mother and child should therefore leave the store, and those who thought the mother and child should complete the errand.

I am quite possibly in my own camp. I don't thing the thread was about the other mother at all. I think the OP was sharing the amazing feeling one gets when one realizes that that one is now free of one's previously held beliefs that one's children's behavior must be controlled and conformed to a place where children's behavior is viewed as communication that it is possible to understand and respond to. (My goodness that's a long sentence.)

That what I got out of it. I think the OP identified with the mom...that in her previous way of thinking she would have been there.

My kids go shopping. They like it usually. They pick out what they want to eat for the week. They look for bargains. They discuss which cheese sample is better. They are 3 and 7.

But they both went through periods when they were younger where it was just to difficult for them to shop. So we worked something else out.

They've also both been through periods when they couldn't really eat out. The 3 year old is only loving it at particular restaurants right now. So we don't often take her out to eat. Am I worried that she'll never learn to behave in a restaurant. No, the 7 year old went through the same thing.

Giving young children some space to go through phases works better than I would have imagined. And no particularly dire consequences have ensured so far.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by mz_libbie22

I'm not one to try to compromise and give out hugs when my DS is bemoaning the terrible injustice of not owning the entire Lego catalogue. To do so would be enabling greed.

I think I see the difference in our persepective. My kids can have a hugs 24/7 if they want one or dozens. From where I sit, hugs never made anybody greedy.

If they want the whole Lego catalogue, I will sit down with them and do the math on how many allowances it would take to get the whole thing. And figure out how long it is to the next gift-getting events. And talk about how much fun legos are. And think about maybe if two friends brought over their legos and we had a big lego gathering that would be almost like owning the whole catalogue. And figure out how many days it is until the planetarium is going to put on Lego-palooza. And.....

And then I would offer to dump all the legos on a big sheet and build with them. And tell them that I just love it that she enjoys legos so much.

Then I get a contented kid who is likely to grow up to be a pretty cool grownup. It's not an either or.

[allgirls]

chfriend..I think we are in the same camp. I agree that the OP wasn't about the other mom, but about the OP and her observations and feelings.

My kids also like shopping. All 4 of them. Personally, when it all comes right down to it, I don't like shopping much. But it has to be done. So I work really hard to set it up for success.

My kids also went through stages of being more cooperative and less cooperative..wanting to run around etc.

I don't like shopping but I work hard at making it enjoyable, by making it about enjoying each others company rather than about the "chore" that it is.

So those times when the kids let me know with their response that they are less than happy with what's happening I listen. Depending on the situation I help them through.

I don't think in black and white though..I am a very much about compromise and flexibility. With everybody including my children.

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I think I see the difference in our persepective. My kids can have a hugs 24/7 if they want one or dozens. From where I sit, hugs never made anybody greedy.

If they want the whole Lego catalogue, I will sit down with them and do the math on how many allowances it would take to get the whole thing. And figure out how long it is to the next gift-getting events. And talk about how much fun legos are. And think about maybe if two friends brought over their legos and we had a big lego gathering that would be almost like owning the whole catalogue. And figure out how many days it is until the planetarium is going to put on Lego-palooza. And.....

And then I would offer to dump all the legos on a big sheet and build with them. And tell them that I just love it that she enjoys legos so much.

Then I get a contented kid who is likely to grow up to be a pretty cool grownup. It's not an either or.

:

[monkey's mom]

I'm with the chfriend and allgirls camp! In fact, I figured something must have gotten edited out of the thread b/c it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me that folks thought it was anything else.

I hope drooling over the LL Bean catalog doesn't make me greedy. I don't buy it. But it sure is fun to fantasize and browse.

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I'm with the chfriend and allgirls camp! In fact, I figured something must have gotten edited out of the thread b/c it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me that folks thought it was anything else.

I hope drooling over the LL Bean catalog doesn't make me greedy. I don't buy it. But it sure is fun to fantasize and browse.

that's the kind of shopping I like. Catalogues and online...no lines

[ruhbehka]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I haven't tried the delivery thing, but I know folks who swear by it. One grocery store here will shop for you for $5 and you can pick it up at the door. Haven't done that either, but I can see it working. One person has said the $5it costs, she saves because the store shoppers stick to her list and don't impulse buy!!

I dream of having my groceries delivered. Alas, no one will deliver to my zip code. DH even called several stores that deliver to neighboring zip codes and asked if he could pay double to have his delivered. No dice. :

They do have that order-and-pick-up option, which I've considered, but we have to shop around food allergies and that makes it really hard, especially if they are out of an item, choose the wrong type of an item, or if I am looking for something along the lines of "a loaf of whole wheat bread that doesn't contain milk or traces of it." They don't have that option to "check off" on the website order form.

[mz_libbie22]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I think I see the difference in our persepective. My kids can have a hugs 24/7 if they want one or dozens. From where I sit, hugs never made anybody greedy.

If they want the whole Lego catalogue, I will sit down with them and do the math on how many allowances it would take to get the whole thing. And figure out how long it is to the next gift-getting events. And talk about how much fun legos are. And think about maybe if two friends brought over their legos and we had a big lego gathering that would be almost like owning the whole catalogue. And figure out how many days it is until the planetarium is going to put on Lego-palooza. And.....

And then I would offer to dump all the legos on a big sheet and build with them. And tell them that I just love it that she enjoys legos so much.

Then I get a contented kid who is likely to grow up to be a pretty cool grownup. It's not an either or.

Well, that's how things usually go here too. And I have never in my life refused my DS a hug if he asked, just to be clear.

But I do have a low tolerance for whining for "stuff."

Especially in stores, talking about each and every thing DS decides he wants and what would have to be done to attain it would be to me and would take way more time than I have. Like lots of kids, my DS wants wants wants and sometimes you just have to say "No, you don't need that. period. I think it's good for kids to hear that once in awhile. Am I wrong?

[ruhbehka]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

And, interestingly, I had the second shift in views that you did too, I now (being pregnant) try to be compassionate towards the parent in the situation too, rather than making snap judgements. It's all about personal growth, and I think it's really neat that you brought it up in a thread!

Actually, this thread is kind of making me smile because just this morning I was telling DH that I'd decided to give up judgmentalism for Lent this year. Not to be perfect at it, but to rephrase judgmental comments in a more empathetic light, and to stop my thought trains and put them in reverse when I'm thinking judgmental lines of thought.

[This morning, a good friend and I were talking about how one of the most difficult things in AP circles is avoiding building up your own confidence in choosing non-mainstream parenting practices by denigrating parents who make different decisions. And how it's difficult to raise empathetic children if they frequently hear harsh assessments of others' intentions coming from our lips. That got me thinking about making an active project of it, for the Lenten season.]

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

As an example, I recall Jean Liedloff talked in The Continuum Concept about how the South American Indians she lived among let the little girls join in with the manioc-grating as they got the urge, going off to play when they tired of it, without any repercussions from the adult women, or any insistence that they finish what they started. Yet at some point, all the girls grew to fully participate in adult society. By choice.

Right. And their other choice would have been what? Law school? A job at McDonald's?

I'm sorry, I just don't think that equates. Of course they joined in grating the manioc. It was that or starve to death.

[ruhbehka]

Originally Posted by natensarah

Right. And their other choice would have been what? Law school? A job at McDonald's?

I'm sorry, I just don't think that equates. Of course they joined in grating the manioc. It was that or starve to death.

But is choosing to participate in adult society really so different, in our culture?

You pretty much have to work to live today, as well. I would guess that you can choose to be a lazy manioc grater just as easily as a lazy employee elsewhere, and your end result is likely to be either a life where others resent you, or a hand-to-mouth existence...

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by natensarah

Right. And their other choice would have been what? Law school? A job at McDonald's? I'm sorry, I just don't think that equates. Of course they joined in grating the manioc. It was that or starve to death.

I think the choice was to participate in society and become a part of it or not. Different societies have different choices.

Ours has the MacDonald's and Law school choice, theirs was simpler.

The point that is trying to be made here is that they became functioning members of their society and the adults of the SA Indians had the confidence that it would happen so they didn't push them when they were little, never encouraged them to finish things etc yet they STILL matured into capable adults.

I think it does equate.

And as children it wasn't "grate the manoic or starve" they were fed even if they only helped a bit. They just developed a sense of responsibility as they matured just by being with the adults around them who modelled that sense of responsibility.

It's interesting that's for sure.

Thanks for sharing that Mammal_mama