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post #161 of 184
OK, I've listened to the song, watched the video, watched the video of Soulja Boy showing how to do the dance, read all these posts, etc. I read the lyrics on his site and they do say "Superman that...Ohhhh" and the dance does show him "flying" like superman during that part, not acting out the other meaning. So I really wouldn't have a problem with my kids listening to it. But I'm still confused about one thing:

Is it okay to play this song at a school function? My DH is in charge of music for the 5th - 6th grade dance room at the school carnival. I'm sure the kids would love it if he played this but after reading this, are we going to end up offending any parents who are in there?? I'm concerned if people complain, they won't let the kids have a dance room next year. Would you play it or not?
post #162 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindberg99 View Post
OK, I've listened to the song, watched the video, watched the video of Soulja Boy showing how to do the dance, read all these posts, etc. I read the lyrics on his site and they do say "Superman that...Ohhhh" and the dance does show him "flying" like superman during that part, not acting out the other meaning. So I really wouldn't have a problem with my kids listening to it. But I'm still confused about one thing:

Is it okay to play this song at a school function? My DH is in charge of music for the 5th - 6th grade dance room at the school carnival. I'm sure the kids would love it if he played this but after reading this, are we going to end up offending any parents who are in there?? I'm concerned if people complain, they won't let the kids have a dance room next year. Would you play it or not?
no way
post #163 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindberg99 View Post
Is it okay to play this song at a school function? My DH is in charge of music for the 5th - 6th grade dance room at the school carnival. I'm sure the kids would love it if he played this but after reading this, are we going to end up offending any parents who are in there?? I'm concerned if people complain, they won't let the kids have a dance room next year. Would you play it or not?
My 5th grade nephew love, love, loves this song, knows all the dance steps as do his friends ... but if this thread is any indication I would skip it, and I wouldn't call that censorship ... just a selective play list
post #164 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie2 View Post
My 5th grade nephew love, love, loves this song, knows all the dance steps as do his friends ... but if this thread is any indication I would skip it, and I wouldn't call that censorship ... just a selective play list
Yeah, I guess it's better to skip it. I'm sure the kids will survive.
post #165 of 184

Uh-huh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongBeliever View Post
I apologize if my passion on the subject is offensive. I also apologize if I get on my high horse and use terms that are less than bunny fresh... I suppose there I need to practice what I preach. Ah, the foresight of youth. But I won't apologize for my intention. I'd like for everyone to have a loving, gentle childhood... Maybe if my rantings get one more mom to switch the channel on the radio, that's great. It might be easier to swallow if I could say it a little sweeter, but it was early in the morning and passion doesn't always leave time to edit for sensibilities. And maybe my rantings will achieve nothing, but I stood up for what I believe in, and that counts for something to me. I don't mean to insult anyone, nor do I mean to point the finger... Forgive my generalizations.
This is so beautifully put, and coming from my point of view, it's surprising that anyone could argue against the wisdom in it.

I don't know for sure, but I think the folks who are strong proponents of letting their children listen to and watch whatever they want (I assume your kids are allowed to watch porn if they want to) probably are talking mostly about their teens. I have a pre-teen, whom I've referred to here as a "child," at age nine in two weeks, who has friends listening to music I will censor from our house and lives as much as possible. Two reasons: preservation of innocence and to model what I consider a civic duty: saying no, not on my watch, not on my dime, not with my implicit approval. This is what drew me into this convo: supersmutty misogynistic mass media that are marketed to young people. I never, and not one person who's posted has ever expressed more than empassioned desires for the supersmut to go supergoodbye, with not a hope or prayer of that happening which we all know, but just the WISH that it would fade from view of our child.

Is that censorship? I also won't let her watch porn, or murder-rampage tv, or depictions of drug use, or crime dramas or solve-the-murder newsmagazine tv shows, or stripper scenes in movies I might rent (Hollywood manages to squeeze so many into movies... it could be about a sewing circle at a nunnery, and Hollywood is going to have the main characters meet at a stripper club). I don't feel that I am stunting her growth. But when I let her out of her padded cage for dinner, I am going to measure her.

VF
post #166 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marg of Arabia View Post
control is an illusion
:
post #167 of 184
Well, this is getting ridiculous.

Viewfinder - The bit of text by StrongBeliever that you quoted really has very little to do with this conversation.

Second, you cannot really assume we let our children watch porn. Please. Be a grown-up.

Third, I'm not sure what this even means:
Quote:
I never, and not one person who's posted has ever expressed more than empassioned desires for the supersmut to go supergoodbye, with not a hope or prayer of that happening which we all know, but just the WISH that it would fade from view of our child.
I don't have an "empassioned desire" for the "supersmut to go supergoodbye." What it could cost us isn't worth it. Who decides what qualifies? Who gets to filter? I'd rather counter the "supersmut" with superdiscussion.

I'm not talking about a third grader here, though. I'm talking about children who are old enough to have ever longer stretches of time to themselves and with their friends. Children who are too old to be sitting right next to me at all times. Children who are healthy and growing and learning to navigate the world they live in. I can't drive them around forever. They have to make their own way.

I hope they remember the map I put in the glovebox.
post #168 of 184

Ridiculous? no...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chellemarie View Post
Well, this is getting ridiculous.
No, no, it's getting clear: we all actually feel similarly, even when it's seemed we disagreed TERRibly. I think what was unclear is what age kids we're all talking about, mainly.

I LOVED your line:

"I don't have an "empassioned desire" for the "supersmut to go supergoodbye. ... I'd rather counter the "supersmut" with superdiscussion."

I laughed out loud... so funny. And, I must explain, sorry this was unclear, but the "persons" I referred to in the following:

"I never, and not one person who's posted has ever expressed more than empassioned desires..."

I am speaking of those of us who have been holding up the, "Wish it would go away" banner.

What Strong Believer said,

Originally Posted by StrongBeliever
"I'd like for everyone to have a loving, gentle childhood... Maybe if my rantings get one more mom to switch the channel on the radio, that's great."

I agree with this, and I liked ALL of what she said in that paragraph I posted. I felt a certain sympatico, and wanted to share that with this group of people at the keyboard.

On Rosie.com or RosanneWorld.com today was posted a link to a short film about "stuff." It is relavant to our conversation. I just watched it and there is one line in it that will jump out at you (my imagined "you"). So worth the full viewing. The Story of Stuff or something like that.

VF
post #169 of 184
Whether or not I'd want the things I don't value in to disappear is just not the point for me. I don't even wish it would "fade from the view of my child."

There are always going to be things I dislike, find revolting, don't care for, don't agree with, am squicked out by, see as stupid, or find offensive. This happens because I live in a society and world with other human beings, and so do my kids.

Instead of banning and censoring we've chosen to discuss and allow for personal decision making about food, music, TV, clothes, and etc. The result is kids thinking about what they value or don't value and why or why not, understanding their own limits, and knowing they can be open and honest with me without any fear of my controlling what they see or hear. This is far more important to me than whether or not they hear controversial language or sexism. We talk about it, and that's what we find value in.
post #170 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa View Post
Whether or not I'd want the things I don't value in to disappear is just not the point for me. I don't even wish it would "fade from the view of my child."

There are always going to be things I dislike, find revolting, don't care for, don't agree with, am squicked out by, see as stupid, or find offensive. This happens because I live in a society and world with other human beings, and so do my kids.

Instead of banning and censoring we've chosen to discuss and allow for personal decision making about food, music, TV, clothes, and etc. The result is kids thinking about what they value or don't value and why or why not, understanding their own limits, and knowing they can be open and honest with me without any fear of my controlling what they see or hear. This is far more important to me than whether or not they hear controversial language or sexism. We talk about it, and that's what we find value in.

Yes, yes.
What if your child makes choices you don't approve of? As a parent, are you going to devalue them because their choices do not match yours? Really. Being over controlling is based on FEAR. Being open to choices and discussion is based on LOVE. Pretty simple.
post #171 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMUM View Post
Yes, yes.
What if your child makes choices you don't approve of? As a parent, are you going to devalue them because their choices do not match yours?
I've asked this question at least once and I know at least one other person has asked the same thing. We haven't gotten an answer yet.

I saw the video about Stuff several weeks ago. I found it interesting but not new. I think you're preaching to choir here on that sort of thing. Most people on MDC already think that way.
post #172 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa View Post
and knowing they can be open and honest with me without any fear of my controlling what they see or hear. This is far more important to me than whether or not they hear controversial language or sexism.
amen sista!

this is what it all boils down to for me
post #173 of 184

What makes you leap to the "control" end

Do you let your children watch porn? I've posed this question, and still not gotten an answer on it.

Do you let your children watch depictions of rape scenes? Murders? Chop bodies up horror? Domestic violence scenes?

Some folks do, I understand that. I have great affection and respect for those friends I have IRL who let their 4 and 6 yr olds watch horror films. But if YOU draw the line at porn: soft porn, hard core porn, then you are censoring and trying to control your kids, by your own measure.

Where we draw the lines is different. I think it impacts our children, and I am critical of how overexposure to horror, smut and misogyny (not merely scary, nasty and sexist) will affect your children, because your children affect my children. I wish my child didn't have to be raised in a world where your kids are going to be introducing, or should I say, impinging upon my child what you deem is openness to certain facts of life while she is too young, in my opinion, to hear it without undue psychic damage. But, I am not going to censor your children from my child, and my child is not likely to announce that she will not associate with the kids doing the nasty dance, etc. But she does come home and talk about it, expresses concern and disgust, etc.

That may bring up another point of contention here: maybe you do not acknowledge psychic damage. Maybe you believe that children who are physically, or mentally, or sexually abused do not receive life-altering psychic damage. It is THE FEW and NOT THE MANY who rise above childhood abuse, because it puts MARKS on their identity. I believe that exposure to misogynistic propoganda puts marks on a child's identity, as either the identified VICTIM in the scenario, or the identified PERPETRATOR. I did not arrive at that opinion in a vacuum. I believe I am backed up by plenty of scholarship on the issue, but, bottom line, it's merely my considered opinion. I do not put out there that I am right and you are wrong, because I don't actually know that for your kids. But that is my opinion.

Also, something that seems to have escaped your notice, is that I and I'm pretty sure every parent on here DOES also talk and discuss EVERYTHING with our children, and how we feel about it, and allow some room for personal choices, as age appropriate, in my view. There is SO MUCH horse---- erupting out of our sexist and somewhat misogynistic society that even with the blinders and earmuffs I have surgically installed on my child's head :, there is PLENTY of material that does get through that we talk about alot.

I have a NINE YEAR OLD. You may have a teen: acknowledge THAT fact. We're talking about different aged PRE-TEENS and TEENS.

Oh, and I don't believe anyone here is looking for a mini-me in their child. My dd is very much her own person and clearly (to all who know her) marches to the beat of her own drummer. She and I do not agree on some things, big things, and it's okay. She will do things that I will not like, and I will still love her, and she me, I'm pretty sure. We tackle it all like everyone else. We talk about everything and anything. She has strong opinions of her own, she's intelligent, and she is a product of TODAY, and that presents generational challenges for me, because I'm old enough to have been her grandmother. But I have always been on the vanguard of social awareness, and I have no trouble accepting the sometimes vast differences of opinion that we have on certain things. And that's good parenting. I "let" her do things I don't like sometimes.

So, tell us all then, do you let your children watch porn? Let them see all the news and pictures of the wars and conflicts overseas? All the starving and malnutritioned babies? Do you let them see you smoking cigarettes? Smoking pot? Drinking alcohol til you're blotto? How do you explain the sheet stuck to your backside when your kid crawls into bed with you? How do you take it when your son stands over you and starts to pee on you? These are questions I ask you in the interest of your own self-discovery. I don't really want to know.

VF
post #174 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viewfinder View Post
So, tell us all then, do you let your children watch porn? Let them see all the news and pictures of the wars and conflicts overseas? All the starving and malnutritioned babies? Do you let them see you smoking cigarettes? Smoking pot? Drinking alcohol til you're blotto? How do you explain the sheet stuck to your backside when your kid crawls into bed with you? How do you take it when your son stands over you and starts to pee on you? These are questions I ask you in the interest of your own self-discovery. I don't really want to know.
Emphasis mine. You are way out of line. Your manner of expressing yourself here is far more offensive than a song with lyrics that have underlying meaning. Meaning that is largely lost on children who interpret the lyrics differently and rather innocently.

Some of these behaviors are not just morally questionable - they are illegal.

Most of the participants on this thread had to ask what "superman" even means. So your snotty little question about having a sheet stuck to our backs is the nastiest thing I've read in this entire thread.
post #175 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viewfinder View Post
Do you let your children watch porn? I've posed this question, and still not gotten an answer on it.

Do you let your children watch depictions of rape scenes? Murders? Chop bodies up horror? Domestic violence scenes?
I didn't answer these questions because they seem ridiculous and inflammatory to me. I don't know if you are asking a legitimate question or just trying to stir things up. Your posts have a very accusatory tone, which I think we've seen a lot of people react to. I don't usually respond to such things because I think it's a waste of time. I get the feeling that you aren't really so much interested in other people's opinions as you are interested in trying to bully everyone into agreeing with you.

If you truly want an answer then, no, of course I do not let my children watch porn. I don't watch porn. But, as you pointed out, we are not talking about 4 or 6yos here. My teenager has seen porn in various forms. We have talked about it. I don't supply it for him but I am also not going to forbid him to look at it because I know that's an impossibility for me to make happen. That's just not even part of my vocabulary with my children. We don't forbid things. He has to decide for himself whether or not porn is something he wants to view.
post #176 of 184
I dont really have the energy to read the last few posts...the questions asked (about porn, etc) dont really seem to be asked in the spirit of wanting to understand why we parent the way we do....the questions seem almost offensive.

However, since "porn" was brought up a couple of days ago, i've been "posting in my head" (havent been near my computer), and so wanted to get my feelings on that out, without addressing specific points that may or may not have been mentioned.

I was waiting for the porn argument to come up. Invariably, at MDC, whenever threads start about limiting kids exposure to something (be it Bratz, or MIC toys, or sugar, or meat, or tv or videogames or or or....on and on)...there will be parents like myself who say that we dont "limit" our children's exposure to these things if they desire them. Parents, like myself, will explain how we dont just throw a bunch of HFCS at the child and say "have at it", we dont just lay down videos of horror movies and say "Enjoy!!!" but rather we take our kids' lead about what interests them...and we support, discuss, facilitate. And at some point, those few of us who would allow such "evil" things (like Bratz dolls, or music with iffy lyrics or whatever)....someone will bring up porn. "Would you let your child see porn?!?" *gasp* *shock* *horror* Sometimes, the question is "would you let your child shoot heroin in the living room???" or "would you let your 12 yr old have sex in your home??" or some variation.

I call it the "Porn and Twinkies" argument.

Its a straw man. It does *nothing* to address the issues being discussed here. In fact, i doubt that the people who bring up porn are really concerned that a lack of strict control will lead their child to a life of porn addiction. I think that posters bring up porn to show just how "ridiculous" those of us are who don't strictly limit/control our children.

In a way, its kind of like having a discussion about the benefits of breastfeeding (or cosleeping or gentle discipline) with someone, and them saying "Yeah....BUT.....would you REALLY be ok with your 12 yr old doing that?!?!" Its a way of trying to discredit someone's ideals.

But. You asked about porn. I'll answer.

I have an 11 yr old son. I am sure he's seen the occasional "naked woman" in his adventures on the internet. I dont *think* he has sought them out, but its the internet, and so i'm sure its happened at some point. I also expect that there will be a time where viewing naked people will be something he wants to do or possibly enjoys (which is typical of many many many men and women in our society.) As with everything else in our lives (music, food, advertising, violence in the media), i'm sure we will (and have a little, to some extent)talk about the "sex industry"....why people might get involved, how there is alot of exploitation of the workers (whether we are talking about porn, or playboy, or prostitutes), how many women who are involved have been abused in their childhood. We might talk about being respectful of partners. We might talk about whether or not viewing porn means you are also exploiting someone (and not everyone agrees that "Porn = Bad"...if you do, you can certainly feel free to express those feelings to your kid), how one's partner might feel if she found her boyfriend/husband had porn (no one "right" answer here)....etc etc. I could go on and on. I likely would not have this discussion in one big huge heavy conversation. This is something that starts early (about respecting other's body boundaries, about "healthy" touch vs not being ok with someone touching , that sort of thing)...and might become quite in depth and explicit with a much older teen.

Does your 9 yr old want to view porn? I would say its probably developmentally atypical, if thats so. Does your 15 yr old want to view porn? My answer about how to handle it would then be different.

If you, personally, have a political position against all porn, and therefore would never allow it in the house (meaning, if you found Playboy under your teen's bed, you'd burn it but not before giving him an earful about the exploitation of women)....thats your choice. Whatever.

If i found a playboy underneath my teen boys bed, i'd quietly put it back and remind myself not to be so nosy. If my teen boy wanted to invite his friends over and watch porn dvds in the living room? Uh no, i'd have to tell him its not ok....one big reason being the legal liability involved. But i can't imagine my son even thinking of doing such a thing....and i can't really imagine any child of a mindful, respectful parent wanting to do that. I suppose its possible, somewhere.


For some reason people who control and limit just do not believe us when we say NOT doing those things works out well in our homes. That our relationship with our kids is (IMO) stronger, healthier, more open. I want my child to be able to come to me for help, for advice, and not be afraid that i will judge them.

My son has a friend across the street, 12 yrs old, who keeps so much stuff from his mom. He even has a girlfriend, they've kissed, but its a big secret and his mom just thinks this girl is a friend. My son OTOH, tells me just about everything. We dont have secrets. He's not afraid to tell me when he's made a mistake.

Even in this thread, someone brought up a child "eating 20 Big Macs"...as if NOT restricting will get you that. But its been MY experience and the experience of just about everyone i know in unschooling/mindful parenting circles that "eating 20 big macs" (why? Why would you do that? Is that even possible??)isnt a reality for our families. My son can have candy whenever he wants. While checking out at the store, i'll often ask "want a candy bar?" The answer is OFTEN "no", or he'll ask for sugar free gum. We just went to the office supply store, to get a better binder for school. I would have bought him just about anything there that he wanted. He decided that his old binder was fine, he'd just organize it better, and bought a 99 cent book cover. I told him later he is so "non needy"....IME it is *because* my child is not restricted, that he makes very specific choices. That he is more discerning. That he takes the time to figure out what he truly wants, rather than wanting something that he is not allowed to have.

Its not about porn. Its not about twinkies. Really.


Katherine
post #177 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viewfinder View Post
Do you let your children watch porn? I've posed this question, and still not gotten an answer on it.
It's not a question of "let" really. It's a matter of respect that we have for each other. It's a matter of privacy. We do not watch porn as a family because that would be uncomfortable for us. My teens are fully capable of finding sexual media though, and it's not a problem for us. They are young people coming into their own sexuality. Dd likes to read some light erotica fan fiction. No big deal.

Quote:
Do you let your children watch depictions of rape scenes? Murders? Chop bodies up horror? Domestic violence scenes?
Yes. My kids have been guided and encouraged to watch things they are personally comfortable with. What we can handle is individual. I don't do horror, and the kids watch scary movies. Dd recently saw a movie that was too much for her, and she talked to me about it. She's taking a little break from those things and then she'll assess her comfort level again. Both kids are sensitive to rape scenes, but they can get through it in a movie if it's brief enough.

Quote:
Also, something that seems to have escaped your notice, is that I and I'm pretty sure every parent on here DOES also talk and discuss EVERYTHING with our children, and how we feel about it, and allow some room for personal choices, as age appropriate, in my view
Right, but the bottom line is that you still get to decide for your pre and teen if their choice is something you aren't comfy with. (If i've been reading/understanding you correctly, anyway.) That's a key difference.

Quote:
So, tell us all then, do you let your children watch porn?
It's not a let issue. If my teens want to find it, they will. I have shared with them what I value and why.

Quote:
Let them see all the news and pictures of the wars and conflicts overseas?
Yep. I never forced it upon them, but we never deliberately hid it either.

Quote:
All the starving and malnutritioned babies?
Again, we've never thrown it at them, but we never hid it. It allows us to talk about compassion, poverty, and etc.

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Do you let them see you smoking cigarettes? Smoking pot?
My husband smokes so it would be odd to censor that. We have no issue with pot smoking in and of itself. I do not value addictions, and I wouldn't want the possible legal problems that pot can bring, but other than that it's a so whatter.

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Drinking alcohol til you're blotto?
We've never had a problem with the kids seeing someone drunk in a movie or etc. We don't value that behavior IRL, and we've explained why.

Quote:
How do you explain the sheet stuck to your backside when your kid crawls into bed with you? How do you take it when your son stands over you and starts to pee on you?
I seriously doubt anyone here is suggesting that these things are respectful, appropriate, or actually happening in their lives. That's light years apart from listening to a song.
post #178 of 184
Hi all. What an interesting thread.
I just wanted to add, that I think 'controlling' a kids media etc can sometimes have the oppisite effect. When I was growing up my parents wouldn't let me play with Barbies or watch violence on tv/movies or play with guns or cabbage patch dolls etc. Well, let me tell you!! That is all i wanted to do. I so prayed for a BArbie everyday. If I went to friends houses I would play with their secretly and watch violent movies. I felt like I had this whole secret life away from my parents. And I kept it all from them.
I AM really appreciative of the 'intent' behind their actions, and they did explain to me the reasons why I wasn't 'allowed' to do those things, but it didn't stop me.

Also, there was a discussion about sexual harrassment earlier. This is a little OT but, when I was in intermediate school (11 or 12) I brought 3 of my male classmates up on sexual harrassment charges. They had been bulling my and using all kinds of sexual innuendo and I just couldn't take it any more. I kept a log of their insult etc and typed it up and wrote accompaningly letters to my teacher and principal outlining the abuse. All three boys were severly reprimanded and suspended. I have never regretted doing this. If your daughters are being sexually harrassed at school there is things they can do about it.
post #179 of 184
I'm not really up for the deeper discussion going on here. But I just wanna let you know you have ruined music for me! I never knew all those songs had all those meanings to them. Even now, as a grown up! Sheesh. am soooooooooo sheltered.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion...
post #180 of 184
Hmm maybe I should see this look up this song. I am so out of it. Not sure what "superman" is except the cartoon hero. Gosh I hope my 3 yr old ds is into the Cure and The Doors ( makes mental note)


Umm I just googled this and its sick!
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