"soulja boy" - Page 5

[rachelle-a-tron]

Originally Posted by mtiger

urbandictionary(dot)com is the place to go.

Thanks!

[chiromamma]

I've been thinking about and discussing this topic a lot lately. One thing I realized...The lyrics to songs I grew up with (80's 90's) were sexy and seductive.
Anyone remember Rod Stewart's Tonight's the Night? OMG. That got me so excited and my mom so mad. But here's the difference. It was sexy and romantic. It conjured up images of passion and love. It's not mysogynistic and degrading.
I discussed my discomfort with the lyrics of soulja boy and had my kids remove it from their iPods. I just can't stand to hear my 11yo son singing "superman that oh." I am so grateful this thread came up. I had NO idea what awful lyrics they were. I told them what they meant. Not sure if that was the best route. I'm hoping it's not lunchroom talk at DS's school today.
Can anyone tell me about some hip hop/rap that has positive lyrics. We already listen to Matisyahu but I'd love to know of others.

[Viewfinder]

Handmaiden for Misogyny?

Originally Posted by MarineWife

"Shutting down" racist music did not get rid of racism. Racism is still alive and well in our society, although maybe not as openly expressed. I'm sure artists are still making racist music. It's just a matter of finding it. I don't really listen to music very much so I can't name names. Society shifted away from being openly and blatantly racist and so the popular music shifted with it, not the other way around. It's the same with misogyny. As our society moves further and further away from the idea that that kind of attitude toward or treatment of women is ok, the popular music will shift away from it.

And how, may I ask, is our society going to shift away from it? Does it have an appointment to shift?

I would suggest that society has an "impetus" to shift, an impetus fed by ME, saying, "Hey, NO MORE of this. It's not nice, it hurts our society, stop it."

And racism, as you said, is NOT over... no, and it likely never will be as much as most people would like it to be (over).

BUT, it has weakened enormously, and shows signs of weakening a LOT more, as it should. Racist images and sounds in the media have lessened incredibly... you had to be alive before the Civil Rights Movement to appreciate the enormity of the changes. Do you think that racist images and recordings only started to disappear AFTER the civil rights movement, or after the "shift," however you see that?

The businesses that distribute these sounds and images respond to the language of the dollar: if the public ain't buyin'; the studio/record company ain't sellin.' It starts with public outcry: Don't buy these misogynistic products purposely and deliberately. And don't defend them... good grief, they've really got you where they want you then. It makes one a handmaiden for misogynists.

Oh, btw, misogyny isn't a little men's club downtown with weekly harmless fun and annual do-gooder missions: Misogyny is woman-hating. Hate. Hate. Not dislike, not criticism, not the good-natured, "Women. Can't live with em, can't live without em," guys from the block attitude about his beloved wife, who he really loves, admires and respects. It's a man who views vagina-bearing human beings as pieces of sh-- to do with, or not, whatever he wants, from using them as a kleenex to masturbate into to a piece of traction on the highway of HIS LIFE. Objects of love... NOOOO, a misogynist does not understand or feel LOVE as we know it. They have want and don't want. He uses words and his body to hurt, deface, bring down, dehumanize women. And when it is done with music, or dance, or pictures, or movies, I AM NOT BUYING. And I am not going to lob that enormous, flame-loaded spear at my daughter's heart by simply discussing with her that... that what... that some men who masquerade as being nice, and cool, and with it, and who may even be hot and attractive and even SWEET in a conversation, are singing out to the world a so-called SONG, or TRACK, to the world where they say these absolutely insulting things about women, generally, and they want to or do really nasty things to them that hurt them and make them cry, or where they actually talk like they want to kill her, and exactly how they want to kill her. And don't listen to it, or be wierded out at all if the little boy or young man you have a serious crush on starts saying those same words out loud while he's grooving along with his IPOD... they don't really MEAN that."

"Then why do they say it, Mom? Why don't they say what they MEAN, then, Mom and Dad? Can I have a peanut butter sandwich, Daddy? What are young men thinking about... Dad? Do you think that way? Thanks for taking off the crusts, Daddy. Do you ever say that or do that to Mom? Will someone want to do that to me?

::Puke

That's where her thinking is going to take her to. I'm against that. I am crying out. Shut that stuff down. Don't buy it, don't defend it, don't explain it: don't put it into their mp3 player. It's not that hard. Other people can still get it, listen to it, let your kid listen to it, throw a party with it and invite your kids, and YOUR decision to PARENT the heck out of the situation as much as you can if that is only to not allow them to play it at home or to load it into the mp3 player that you bought them, will impact your children's growth and maturity in a really good way, as good as the growth and maturity that might--maybe--come if you just give them the reins on it, which imo, for children in elementary school for sure, is not a good thing at all. They're not ready, they cannot comprehend without some psychic damage what it's all about and what it means about a lot of things. I feel my child is really deep, smart, aware, precocious... and all that stuff, but she is a child with a child's development. She is still under my protection for this reason, so says Nature and Society.

VF

[chiromamma]

Oh yea! You said it viewfinder!

[MarineWife]

I don't buy it. I don't even have an MP3 player to put it in. I don't listen to it of my own accord. I am not defending the lyrics of any song. I am defending an individual's right to listen to it. I am saying that censorship is not the answer. Open, honest communication is. None of these things is going to go away quickly. It's part of an ongoing shift away from victimizing people in general that my focus on one group more than another at any given time. I also don't see the point in continuing this discussion if name-calling is going to continue. That's not respectful.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by Viewfinder

Tastes in the levels of necessary snark vary widely, UnschoolnMa. (where's the "throws her head back and laughs" smiley?)

Agreed!

Misogyny is a huge, huge problem in society. I wish there was a mechanism with which I could silence musical artists whose lyrics degrade women, objectify women, trivialize women.

Overall I am no fan. But music is art, and artists have the right to free speech whether or not I agree with what they are saying. I have the right to listen or to not listen, and so do you, which is all good news. Censorship doesn't work for me.

I believe it is damaging to be disseminated... because it goes into children's ears, children's hearts, children's maps of the world. And I believe it is delusional to think that children have the capability to deal with this stuff. If children and teenagers are so sophisticated, so discerning, why don't they just go out on their own? What do they need parents for?

And I believe it's inaccurate to say that children and teens can't understand these things. (How's that for an impasse? LOL) I have the proof right here in my own children, actually. I think there is a big difference in saying that kids/teens are capable of critically thinking about song lyrics and other art, and that they don't need any adult presence in their lives. I'm here for my teens to share my experiences, my thoughts, and to offer any guidance I can give. The world is full of things that are harmful, sad, unjust, and whatever else that I don't particularly value. My kids know that, and I share my thoughts on safety, respect, and etc.

They're NOT so sophisticated, they're NOT so rock solid sure of themselves as you think, they're NOT so imbued with your good values that they virtually ARE you.

Who said any of that? In any case, I have seen evidence that they do have many of the same values I do. We don't always agree, but I never expected that we would. They are individuals, and I never want them to be "virtually me". As far as rock solid goes...I am not always 100% sure of everything myself, and I don't imagine they are either. That's why critical thinking is something I want them to be able to do. That way they can evaluate what they think and feel about something and why.

Can you remember the FIRST time your little daughter actually heard the real words of some great fun, misogynistic rap song, and how she reacted to it? I can. It HURT her. Her face fell, like it was PERSONAL. She looked up at me, her eyes searching for some explanation. "Why is he saying that about her?" (eminem's ode to wife Kim).

Oh she was probably about 9 or so when Eminem started to get hot on the radio. What you've described up there was not our experience. We listened and talked about what we liked and didn't like and why. It was a great opportunity to talk about sexism, domestic violence, anger management, power struggles/imbalances, self esteem, etc.

And you can talk all you want to her about why, and educate her for the rest of her life that "it's those other people over there...," and it's not going to explain away that personal hurt. It HURTS to be debased because of the color of your skin; it HURTS to be debased because of your gender.

Sure it hurts. I totally agree. I do think talking and education is key. Absolutely!

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by MarineWife

Sitting here typing this and thinking about it something occured to me. I would have never had any idea what "supermanning" is or that people even did that to other people if I hadn't heard the song. However, it's very likely that my son was exposed to this. Listening to the song together and knowing what the lyrics mean allows me to talk to my ds about how I feel about the act, which maybe gives him a different perspective on supermanning and how to treat women in general.

Absolutely!!

[Viewfinder]

I didn't call anyone here any names.

Just to be clear on that. My opinions on this matter are long-held, I've written a lot about it. The name, handmaiden of misogyny is not calling someone a name, but illustrating what I see as the description of the member of a social system who defends the rights of misogynists who strike out at members of her own sex, including her daughters. I hope you will think about it alot. I truly do. If you don't want to, fine. Hey, I was in Charleston, South Carolina when a woman's group in the city picketed at the Citadel Military Academy against the women who were already admitted. Same thing, in my opinion. Handmaidens of Patriarchy.

Censorship is unrealistic. I don't advocate censorship of artists. But I advocate for individual courage to make bold, new decisions in this area. I do believe that all the enlightened parenting that you and I do is Number One on the list to do. Number Two is me doing what I can to eliminate pain coming at my child.

I've had a lot of exposure to a lot of different kids and teens, from insulated rich kids to teens in detention centers... I think of these kids, too, who may or may not--most of them not, have parents with the ability to parent that we would like them to have, and it's up to the rest of us in society to help THOSE families, too. It's not enough to figure, well, we can help our child to deal with this... it's all good. Because most children and teens don't actually have that kind of wonderful bond with their parents.

I have a wealth of experience working with the power of suggestion on many levels, with many different types of and groups of people. These experiences inform my beliefs on this subject.

Please look a little deeper at it, consider the future ramifications of being okay with it, ignoring the message in the song, allowing yourself to be another ring of the cash register that puts money in that guy's pocket, and thereby propogate MORE OF THE SAME for years to come.

VF

[seawind]

It seems standards in popular music keep falling to new lows as the years pass! Idiotic, inane and devoid of creativity. I can't imagine what sort of music these kids are going to remember with some nostalgia when they grow up.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by seawind

It seems standards in popular music keep falling to new lows as the years pass! Idiotic, inane and devoid of creativity. I can't imagine what sort of music these kids are going to remember with some nostalgia when they grow up.

Good question! I was interested too so I asked my kids.

A partial list of Dd's songs:

"Everywhere" by Michelle Branch- She and her best friend listened to it so much when it came out.

"Sugar We're Going Down" by Fall Out Boy - The first song she heard by what is now her very fave band. This is a love also shared by the aforementioned best friend. Both girls got to see FOB in concert last summer, and it was a memory they will really cherish forever I think. Many of the lyrics have a lot of meaning and memory attached for the girls. Almost all of their songs are on her list.

"Time Of Your Life" by Green Day- Reminds Dd of an online friend!

"Mary Jane's Last Dance" by Tom Petty - Makes her think of me and her Dad.

"Dazed and Confused" by LZ - Reminds her of brother.

"Meet Virginia" by Train- Fun time in her life, reminds her of where we were living at the time, and a girl we used to know.

"Vienna" by Billy Joel- It's just so her


Some from Ds:

Matchbox 20- Reminds him of being a little boy at our old apartment complex

"Stairway to Heaven" - Intro to Led Zeppelin!

Early TOOL- Makes him think of his Dad

The Blackeyed Peas - In some weird timing thing, every time Ds would get a new Final Fantasy game the BE Peas would end up releasing a new single. He'd hear it often on the radio as he worked at conquering the game.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by Viewfinder

Just to be clear on that. My opinions on this matter are long-held, I've written a lot about it. The name, handmaiden of misogyny is not calling someone a name, but illustrating what I see as the description of the member of a social system who defends the rights of misogynists who strike out at members of her own sex, including her daughters. I hope you will think about it alot. I truly do. If you don't want to, fine. Hey, I was in Charleston, South Carolina when a woman's group in the city picketed at the Citadel Military Academy against the women who were already admitted. Same thing, in my opinion. Handmaidens of Patriarchy.

Censorship is unrealistic. I don't advocate censorship of artists. But I advocate for individual courage to make bold, new decisions in this area. I do believe that all the enlightened parenting that you and I do is Number One on the list to do. Number Two is closely followed by me doing what I can to eliminate pain coming at my child.

I've had a lot of exposure to a lot of different kids and teens, from insulated rich kids to teens in detention centers... I think of these kids, too, who may or may not--most of them not, have parents with the ability to parent that we would like them to have, and it's up to the rest of us in society to help THOSE families, too. It's not enough to figure, well, we can help our child to deal with this... it's all good. Because most children and teens don't actually have that kind of wonderful bond with their parents.

I have a wealth of experience working with the power of suggestion on many levels, with many different types of and groups of people. These experiences inform my beliefs on this subject.

Please look a little deeper at it, consider the future ramifications of being okay with it, ignoring the message in the song, allowing yourself to be another ring of the cash register that puts money in that guy's pocket, and thereby propogate MORE OF THE SAME for years to come.

VF

Labeling of any kind is the same as name-calling to me. I defend the Constitution of the United States. I defend the right of any individual to think anything s/he wants. I am not threatened by the lyrics of a song because I don't allow people to treat me that way. I think that's the best lesson I can teach my children. I am not a victim of any person or group who hates me for whatever reason. It is insulting to me to assume that I don't think about these things because I don't agree with your approach.

Originally Posted by Viewfinder

I wish there was a mechanism with which I could silence musical artists whose lyrics degrade women, objectify women, trivialize women. I believe it is damaging to be disseminated

Here's one place where you at least seem to advocate censorship for the entire population. Even if that's not what you meant, you still have advocated us censoring what our own children listen to. I don't think it's my position to control my children in the same way that it's not my position to control my dp. Trying to force people to do what you do or think the way you think by preaching and moralizing and controlling doesn't work. Again, open, honest and respectful communication is what works.

I do my part to try to influence society by not spending my money at certain stores or on certain things. When a subject comes up, I will share my opinion. I don't allow people to treat me in a disrespectful manner. I try to treat all people with respect regardless of whether or not I agree with them. I do not think I have the right to tell another person what s/he should listen to or read or look at or think.

[katybear mama]

Quote:
Originally Posted by seawind
It seems standards in popular music keep falling to new lows as the years pass! Idiotic, inane and devoid of creativity. I can't imagine what sort of music these kids are going to remember with some nostalgia when they grow up.

This is true. Although the songs that UnschoolnMa's kids listed seem to be nostalgia-worthy. But to each , their own. What I deem nostalgia-worthy may not be to someone else. I was thinking about this the other day while listening to the radio in the car with dd. I can't stand most of the pop music she likes (she's 9). But she is also exposed to all the music I listen to. And what I listen to is alot of what my parents listened to when I was growing up - Fleetwood Mac, Allman Bros, Steely Dan, Springsteen, Grateful Dead. So maybe the same will hold true for her.

[chellemarie]

I know there are very serious themes in this thread, but I am cracking UP. That guy reading the lyrics all spoken-word, open mic night is KILLING ME.

I like that song. I think it is fun to listen to. I knew the lyrics couldn't mean anything good, but I still like it. My son likes that song and can sing along with it. (He doesn't want me to tell his dad, though, because he is only supposed to like rock - the hairier the better.)

My son doesn't want to know what those lyrics mean. He just wants to enjoy the song.

When I read the definition for "superman", I laughed. If someone really does that, it's horrible and not at all funny. But hypothetically? I'm sorry. I laughed.

Please don't suggest that anything that might possibly in some way be offensive to someone somewhere be taken off the radio and off the shelves. If the happy fluffy bunnies take over, I am so out of here. People need to learn to deal with different attitudes and behavior. I know the ways in which I'll be discriminated against; the things that have nothing to do with my personality or behavior that people will dislike me for. It is my reality and I have to find ways to cope with it. Please don't try to do that for me. We can't make the world one big padded room. Even if we could, I'd vote against it. I like my oranges sweet and juicy and getting a bad one in the bunch makes the good ones that much better.

[Viewfinder]

Originally Posted by MarineWife

Labeling of any kind is the same as name-calling to me. I defend the Constitution of the United States. I defend the right of any individual to think anything s/he wants. I am not threatened by the lyrics of a song because I don't allow people to treat me that way. I think that's the best lesson I can teach my children. I am not a victim of any person or group who hates me for whatever reason. It is insulting to me to assume that I don't think about these things because I don't agree with your approach.




Here's one place where you at least seem to advocate censorship for the entire population. Even if that's not what you meant, you still have advocated us censoring what our own children listen to. I don't think it's my position to control my children in the same way that it's not my position to control my dp. Trying to force people to do what you do or think the way you think by preaching and moralizing and controlling doesn't work. Again, open, honest and respectful communication is what works.

I do my part to try to influence society by not spending my money at certain stores or on certain things. When a subject comes up, I will share my opinion. I don't allow people to treat me in a disrespectful manner. I try to treat all people with respect regardless of whether or not I agree with them. I do not think I have the right to tell another person what s/he should listen to or read or look at or think.

Well, hm. I'd have to start a response by pointing out all the ways you have misconstrued and mislabeled my remarks, so, I don't see this heading anywhere else useful.

Therefore, I will simply direct anyone interested in the subject we were talking about to go back through my excellent posts on this thread. As fun to write as they are to read.

VF

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by MarineWife

Here's one place where you at least seem to advocate censorship for the entire population. Even if that's not what you meant, you still have advocated us censoring what our own children listen to. I don't think it's my position to control my children in the same way that it's not my position to control my dp. Trying to force people to do what you do or think the way you think by preaching and moralizing and controlling doesn't work. Again, open, honest and respectful communication is what works.

Yes and yes again!

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by chellemarie

Please don't suggest that anything that might possibly in some way be offensive to someone somewhere be taken off the radio and off the shelves. If the happy fluffy bunnies take over, I am so out of here. People need to learn to deal with different attitudes and behavior. I know the ways in which I'll be discriminated against; the things that have nothing to do with my personality or behavior that people we dislike me for. It is my reality and I have to find ways to cope with it. Please don't try to do that for me. We can't make the world one big padded room. Even if we could, I'd vote against it. I like my oranges sweet and juicy and getting a bad one in the bunch makes the good ones that much better.

My bold

Thank you for putting this so well. I kept trying to post this but it just wasn't coming out right. I want to do everything I can to protect my child from being hurt, part of that is being aware of the prejudices and abuses and offensive attitudes that are out there so that my child is prepared and can defend h**self. If I insulate my child from all of it, when s/he is confronted with it s/he is more likely to be a victim of it.

[`guest`]

Thanks chellemarie and Marine Wife for your eloquent posts. I don't think the way to solve problems is to take a hard line stance. How will you educate anyone if you come at them hard? They will just become defensive. Communication and open ness to life is the key to being a successful person. Lyrics in songs, ad nauseum do not define the person. There is more to all of us than our words and it's important to remember and connect with that. As they would say, "DOn't be a hater!"

[forthebest]

I think we all want what is good for our dc, there is no point in just making a point for the sake of it, it has to mean something I guess. Now, I wouldn't stop my dc from listening to any song but if it was full of noticeable offensive stuff, like continual swearing( something like Tenacious D for ex) or some sexist rap stuff( cos there is good rap music imo) we wouldn't want to listen to it anyway. I wouldn't be able to 'stop' my dc from listening to what they want anyway unless I took away their 'free' choice and music in it's essence is about choice and life experience. For me and millions of others being listeners not players of sounds it's a great place to escape to, learn from, enjoy etc. There is also quite a lot of anti-woman music on certain video games, mostly played by boys. As like most of the families here we are open to communication. Soulja boy is just another song, it's not to my taste and I wouldn't have a copy of it. I wouldn't have had a clue what the lyrics are all about but knowing now doesn't enlighten me to this measly effort of a commercial interest song, the dance and all obviously catering to the market they are going for, young kids.

I for one think music or any other form that 'chooses' to degrade women sucks. It's a neverending cycle of mean crap towards my sex. I don't like women-hating music, how 'dirty' do they want us to feel as women, or non-beings which IS the message being pushed, visual porn, auditory porn, it's all the same ? I wonder do the guys that date women that sing some of that stuff really want to treat women like dirt or do they see it as 'sexy' or summit. Or do they have gf's, wives who they treat ok? It's a marketing tool as well, very trendy to supersoak, ich.Whatever, I'll stick with Grace Jones. I do think we are all becoming desensitized about things we really shouldn't be, there is so much propaganda being shoved at us and we know it's very bad for us as a family and the greater human family which is in sorry repair imo), I feel the anti-woman message is being forced on us with ever increasing intensity fro so many angles, which is bad for all woman but also means they're running scared.

[Viewfinder]

The Chalice and the Blade

Originally Posted by forthebest

I think we all want what is good for our dc, there is no point in just making a point for the sake of it, it has to mean something I guess. Now, I wouldn't stop my dc from listening to any song but if it was full of noticeable offensive stuff, like continual swearing( something like Tenacious D for ex) or some sexist rap stuff( cos there is good rap music imo) we wouldn't want to listen to it anyway. I wouldn't be able to 'stop' my dc from listening to what they want anyway unless I took away their 'free' choice and music in it's essence is about choice and life experience. For me and millions of others being listeners not players of sounds it's a great place to escape to, learn from, enjoy etc. There is also quite a lot of anti-woman music on certain video games, mostly played by boys. As like most of the families here we are open to communication. Soulja boy is just another song, it's not to my taste and I wouldn't have a copy of it. I wouldn't have had a clue what the lyrics are all about but knowing now doesn't enlighten me to this measly effort of a commercial interest song, the dance and all obviously catering to the market they are going for, young kids.

I for one think music or any other form that 'chooses' to degrade women sucks. It's a neverending cycle of mean crap towards my sex. I don't like women-hating music, how 'dirty' do they want us to feel as women, or non-beings which IS the message being pushed, visual porn, auditory porn, it's all the same ? I wonder do the guys that date women that sing some of that stuff really want to treat women like dirt or do they see it as 'sexy' or summit. Or do they have gf's, wives who they treat ok? It's a marketing tool as well, very trendy to supersoak, ich.Whatever, I'll stick with Grace Jones. I do think we are all becoming desensitized about things we really shouldn't be, there is so much propaganda being shoved at us and we know it's very bad for us as a family and the greater human family which is in sorry repair imo), I feel the anti-woman message is being forced on us with ever increasing intensity fro so many angles, which is bad for all woman but also means they're running scared.

So well put, forthebest. Poetic, strong, sweet. Thank you.

Please don't someone cry "Censorship" for these kinds of intelligent thoughts on this subject. Misogyny in art is a trend that it is important to NOTICE. Censorship is a continuum that we are ALL on... no one the same, changing over time, changing in response to different things. No one on here has called for censorship, so please don't derail our CONVERSATION about how we each feel about it for us, and for our sphere of influence, by LEAPING to that end of the continuum: we are nowhere near there.

There is plenty of scholarship on this ebbing and flowing of anti-woman behavior and "artisitic expression" in society going back for many, many thousands of years of humanity. Riane Eisler described this so well in "The Chalice and The Blade" (early 1990s), in which she hangs it all on a framework of systems theory, which she also explains; and it is THERE, in clear, plain, fact. Susan Faludi weighs in on this heavily in "Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women." Profound.

That's what this trend is, this misogynistic trend: it is a backlash against woman's attainment of power and independence from patriarchal control and repression. That's why it's important to talk about this alot and loudly. Misogynistic "art" has an effect that SHOULD be counterbalanced with our response.

FTR, all responses that address it are good, even those that can not countenance whatever MY response would be.



VF

[chiromamma]

Discernment/Judgement

It disturbs me that exercising discernment is too often seen as judgemental and advocating censorship.
The C-word is such a hot word to throw at parents who choose not to expose their children to things we see as harmful.
Is it censorship to limit our childrens' intake of sugar, drugs (legal & illegal) or for some, animal products?
For me, degrading, de-humanizng music is as toxic to my childrens' nervous systems and spirits as diet coke, lunchables and vaccinations are to their bodies.
I lean very left and my kids are exposed to many lifestyle choices.
But I'm sorry. I don't feel that everything is OK. My children do not need to learn to tolerate "art forms" that are offensive and degrading. As a matter of fact I want them to stand up and say, "This is not OK."
That's how they'll change the world.
It's my job as a parent to see to that what goes in to their bodies, minds and souls is as pure and supportive of life as possible.
I like to think I've done an OK job so far.
I am all for free speech but not free exposure for children.