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So what's the deal with Target? - Page 5

post #81 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaMama View Post
What a lot of assumptions you made about me!

That's ok, if you ignore problems like adding tons of cheap plastic crap to our environment and using near slave labor to make said crap, those problems will just go away. Instead of sticking your head in the sand you can stick it in a pile of cheap plastic crap and wait for everything to fix itself.

Adding my own :
some of us have no choice but to ignore it because we are trying to survive and provide for our familys.
post #82 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudswinger View Post
Target's got organic, fair trade stuff.
smokescreen to get you in there thinking they're all socially responsible when in fact they are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledutch View Post
i missed where anyone said anything like that.
I have heard the statement IRL and on MDC, that target is somehow better than Walmart. Or that anywhere is better.

But the fact is, they all profit from the same labor pool.

And whenever we have one of these conversations, I pose the same question.
Why are we not ragging on our government about the sweet deals they make with major corporations and other governments?
post #83 of 115
walmart sells organic fair trade products to..... it really doesnt matter whos selling what, they are all still big stores who sell MIC stuff.
post #84 of 115
I have a really hard time shopping in "big box" stores. I agree that Target is just a glorified Wal-Mart. I have no problem getting only what is on my list every 4 months or so. Today, while pushing my Target cart toward the check-out, I realized that the only things I buy at Target are disposable...which makes me really sad, we are so wasteful.

Here is what I bought today...

3-12pks of TP...we could use cloth wipes/sometimes we do
1-24pk of paper towels...my personal addiction
1-80pk of trash bags...what are the alternatives?
2-mongo boxes of kitty litter...inside cats, need this
1-24 case of bottled water...we leave it in the car f/emergencies, but totally unnecessary.
1-replacement screen for electric razor...for dh

other things I get at Target...

replacement avent spouts f/Klean Kanteen sippys
batteries...no way around this one
light bulbs...since buying the energy smart bulbs, we hardly ever buy them anymore
post #85 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
smokescreen to get you in there thinking they're all socially responsible when in fact they are not.

But the fact is, they all profit from the same labor pool.

And whenever we have one of these conversations, I pose the same question.
Why are we not ragging on our government about the sweet deals they make with major corporations and other governments?
Are you painting every big business with the same broad brush? So there's no possibility that "big" business can be socially responsible? So only small businesses can be socially responsible? I'm not saying Target is a poster child for a socially responsible business, but I know that a lot of their stuff is not MIC. I do check the labels. There's stuff made in Vietnam, Turkey, Costa Rica, and all sorts of other countries. They also have tons of cheap plastic stuff. But it wouldn't be there if people didn't buy them. It's like the crappy foods on store shelves. People still buy them. And cigarettes. People still buy them.

So I say I'd rather have the mass marketers support the ideas of fair trade and organics, and make some progress there then not. Every organic sheet sold means there's one less non-organic sheet sold. It gives the opportunity to people who might not have the means to buy organic stuff off the internet or from some small place, and you know these people wouldn't be buying from those venues anyway.

I like that Target is willing to bring designer stuff to the mass market. Yea, sometimes that means that it might look like Pottery Barn knockoffs. But if you like the look and can't afford PB prices, there's still an option for you. If you like designer stuff, but can't justify $400 purses, there's still an option for you. That's kind of the whole point of this board, being frugal. If I can be frugal and still buy organics, that's even better.

I'd say we're not ragging on our government because this is not the political/activism board. I've read many business articles about the kinds of pressure Walmart puts on its suppliers to keep things cheap, while I haven't seen any of those on Target. And articles on predatory pricing to drive small businesses out. So I'm much more comfortable with choosing Target over Walmart.
post #86 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudswinger View Post
Are you painting every big business with the same broad brush? So there's no possibility that "big" business can be socially responsible? So only small businesses can be socially responsible? I'm not saying Target is a poster child for a socially responsible business, but I know that a lot of their stuff is not MIC. I do check the labels. There's stuff made in Vietnam, Turkey, Costa Rica, and all sorts of other countries. They also have tons of cheap plastic stuff. But it wouldn't be there if people didn't buy them. It's like the crappy foods on store shelves. People still buy them. And cigarettes. People still buy them.

So I say I'd rather have the mass marketers support the ideas of fair trade and organics, and make some progress there then not. Every organic sheet sold means there's one less non-organic sheet sold. It gives the opportunity to people who might not have the means to buy organic stuff off the internet or from some small place, and you know these people wouldn't be buying from those venues anyway.

I like that Target is willing to bring designer stuff to the mass market. Yea, sometimes that means that it might look like Pottery Barn knockoffs. But if you like the look and can't afford PB prices, there's still an option for you. If you like designer stuff, but can't justify $400 purses, there's still an option for you. That's kind of the whole point of this board, being frugal. If I can be frugal and still buy organics, that's even better.

I'd say we're not ragging on our government because this is not the political/activism board. I've read many business articles about the kinds of pressure Walmart puts on its suppliers to keep things cheap, while I haven't seen any of those on Target. And articles on predatory pricing to drive small businesses out. So I'm much more comfortable with choosing Target over Walmart.
I'm saying that as long as we overlook the fact that they are profiting from the same 'bad' practices as Walmart just because they carry some free trade products, they're successfully getting away with the same business practices without catching any flack for it. I find it odd that so many are OK with that.

The question was what's the deal with Target? Well, that's the deal. With slick marketing they manage to fool people into thinking they're different from Walmart, but they aren't. And until our government stops letting American companies profit from doing business with the companies who use slave labor overseas, that's the way it will be. People will vilify Walmart while shopping at Target because it's perceived as being 'better' but it's all the same. So the answer to the question what's the deal with Target is, it's the same deal Walmart has, just in a prettier package.

And they don't have to drive out the mom and pop stores because Walmart comes in and does it for them, then they come in and build a store afterwards. They may not carry all the same products or drive the other businesses out personally, but they swoop in after the fact and profit just the same because people shop there thinking they're better than Walmart.
post #87 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
people shop there thinking they're better than Walmart.
i shop there thinking, i need a spool of dental floss. i don't give myself a big hug over shopping at target, but i don't feel bad about it either. i'm simply meeting my family's needs.
post #88 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledutch View Post
i shop there thinking, i need a spool of dental floss. i don't give myself a big hug over shopping at target, but i don't feel bad about it either. i'm simply meeting my family's needs.
Exactly. And that is what most people think when they are at Walmart.

But, IRL, and online, I have been involved in conversations where people seem to have the idea that it is preferable to shop at Target because they're better than Walmart, and I just don't believe it's true.

The deal with Target is, like Walmart, they get their stuff from whoever will sell it to them the cheapest. Like any other business, they are trying to make money.
post #89 of 115
Well, I stopped at Target the other night as I had some time to kill, and a decluttering issue at my house.

I need to find a good shoe system. The 3yo, 5yo and 8yo are always losing their shoes. So, I went in to find a shoe organizer NOT made in China. Impossible. No such creature.

I decided that I would then sew one (or three) myself. Hmm. How to hang it? OK, a stainless steel hanger. Again, impossible. No such creature. So now I will need to sew a pocket, hang a dowel and hang these behind their bedroom doors.

So I walked out of the door empty-handed.
post #90 of 115
i don't get it. do you never need anything that comes from a big, evil corporation?
post #91 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledutch View Post
i don't get it. do you never need anything that comes from a big, evil corporation?
That is exactly my point. People spend so much time avoiding Walmart and then they go to another place that gets stuff from the same sources. The problem isn't the stores themselves, it's the way our country does business, and the way all of these companies get their products.

That is precisely the point. People put out all this energy avoiding Walmart just to spend their dollars somewhere else where another company is profiting from the same thing. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Since everyone is just trying to get by, why do we spend so much time blasting people for shopping at Walmart when, by shopping at Kmart, Target, Safeway, or many other places we are contributing to the same problem?

I honestly don't know what the solution is, but I wish some of these smart people who spend all this time crunching numbers and researching this stuff would come up with a solution that doesn't involve telling the poor to just stop shopping at Walmart. It isn't that simple when shopping elsewhere doesn't really make any difference if you keep buying the same crap. How about finding ways to produce the same products without using slave labor? How about pressuring our government to stop making it profitable for corporations to move manufacturing out of our country?

Building another store with shinier floors and prettier packaging isn't the answer, that much I do know. And that is again, much of the deal about Target. It's a prettier Walmart.
post #92 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
Exactly. And that is what most people think when they are at Walmart.

But, IRL, and online, I have been involved in conversations where people seem to have the idea that it is preferable to shop at Target because they're better than Walmart, and I just don't believe it's true.

The deal with Target is, like Walmart, they get their stuff from whoever will sell it to them the cheapest. Like any other business, they are trying to make money.
What business is not trying to make money? What is wrong with making money? Why do I work if not to make money? Isn't that the whole point of the American Way?

It's profitable for corporations to move out of the US because the cost of manufacturing in the US is higher. So they move to China. But as more manufacturing is done there, the costs in China are rising, so now they move on to Vietnam. So it might seem like slave wages to us, since the Vietnamese get like 5 bucks a day for doing things we would at least take 10 bucks an hour. But here it costs us 2.50 for coffee, whereas there it's only 10 cents for coffee. Yea, the conditions are not up to US standards. So what? I've had this discussion with my parents, taking much the position you are. They're 1st gen immigrants, and feel that any work for their countrymen is beneficial.

Who here wants to pay the full cost of products made in the US? We've collectively voted with our pocketbooks a long time ago. I don't think pressuring the government will help, that's a top down solution. It's another symptom of a sick society. Ever notice how obsessed americans are with avoiding fats, and yet we have the highest rate of obesity. We're obsessed with getting more cheaper stuff, and yet look at our rate of consumer debt.
post #93 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudswinger View Post
What business is not trying to make money? What is wrong with making money? Why do I work if not to make money? Isn't that the whole point of the American Way?
There is nothing wrong with trying to make money. But if people are going to criticize Walmart for making money a certain way, it isn't right to look the other way when other companies do the same thing. It's either fine for everyone, or it isn't.
post #94 of 115
I live in a VERY small town and we do not have a single clothing store in town. None. Also no shoe stores. If we drive to the closest clothing/shoe store its 50miles round trip. Then once there, which btw is 25,000 people, there are like 2 mom/pop stores. The rest are Dillards, JCPenney, Walmart, Target, Kmart, Old Navy, TJMaxx. The mom/pop stores sell their dresses for 100$plus. Shoes there are high end, none under 90$. They cater to the "upper end" of the salarymeter. So where does that leave you? Which of the above are the best? I do not like ordering online for everything, especially if you have to return things. IF you stop and think about how much gas is used to get things across the country to your doorstep that's certainly not enviro friendly. It makes my head spin trying to do the right thing and still take care of my family. I have to let a certain amount of things go, because really I just can't always do everything "right". I have to make feasible choices, livable choices.
post #95 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommaof3boz View Post
I live in a VERY small town and we do not have a single clothing store in town. None. Also no shoe stores. If we drive to the closest clothing/shoe store its 50miles round trip. Then once there, which btw is 25,000 people, there are like 2 mom/pop stores. The rest are Dillards, JCPenney, Walmart, Target, Kmart, Old Navy, TJMaxx. The mom/pop stores sell their dresses for 100$plus. Shoes there are high end, none under 90$. They cater to the "upper end" of the salarymeter. So where does that leave you? Which of the above are the best? I do not like ordering online for everything, especially if you have to return things. IF you stop and think about how much gas is used to get things across the country to your doorstep that's certainly not enviro friendly. It makes my head spin trying to do the right thing and still take care of my family. I have to let a certain amount of things go, because really I just can't always do everything "right". I have to make feasible choices, livable choices.
And that is the other side of it. Why are the people who can least afford it the ones who have to make that choice? Why aren't the people who make all the money being made to do something instead? It always gets turned around to where it's the responsibility of the people who can least afford it to make the difference instead of making the people who profit responsible.
The reality is, people will go where they can afford to buy what they need, or in some cases, where they can find what they need in their area, and no amount of anti-Walmart websites is going to change that.


Target stocking a few free trade items doesn't make the problem go away, and it doesn't change anything for the people who have to shop at any of these places. It's a marketing ploy, plain and simple, and apparently it's working for them.
post #96 of 115
I work in retail and the "MIC" brouhaha drives us nuts. Practically everything you have bought for a long time is MIC and you didn't know or care, and you got used to the prices. Now if you want Made in America, you had better be prepared to pay double the price, and smile while you're doing it. Retail companies are for-profit, consumers want the lowest price, and all the elitist folks who rag on Wal-Mart and Target better get comfortable with the idea that the poor need these places.

[Personally, I don't go to Wal-Mart b/c I feel like hepatitis is lingering on every surface, but that's just me and my classist self.]
post #97 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
shopping elsewhere doesn't really make any difference if you keep buying the same crap.
amen
post #98 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
I work in retail and the "MIC" brouhaha drives us nuts. Practically everything you have bought for a long time is MIC and you didn't know or care, and you got used to the prices. Now if you want Made in America, you had better be prepared to pay double the price, and smile while you're doing it. Retail companies are for-profit, consumers want the lowest price, and all the elitist folks who rag on Wal-Mart and Target better get comfortable with the idea that the poor need these places.

[Personally, I don't go to Wal-Mart b/c I feel like hepatitis is lingering on every surface, but that's just me and my classist self.]
That's the whole thing. Everything is made there, but Walmart is demonized for it, and it doesn't make any sense to me. They are just one of many. And is it any better to buy something made here using parts from China? Do we really know under what circumstances all of our products were made when we buy them?

And you're right, you can't tell people who only have a few dollars to spend to shop around when they have 1 stop shopping and a whole bunch of 99 cent items right there. I used to drive a city bus, and believe me, people who had to use public transportation and wait an hour for the next bus were not going to shop around when one bus would take them to and from Walmart. You do what you can with what you have to work with, yk? People with vehicles, money, time and more stores to choose from have more choices than people who lack those resources.
post #99 of 115
Have any of you read Tom Sawyer? I know it seems off topic, but look at how they lived. People fixed things that broke. Kids played with a piece of string or a stick and were plenty happy. (We won't talk about the dead rat!)

Now I know people who throw out clothes because a button's missing or get a new coffee maker because the plastic is stained on the old one. And they say they "have" to shop at box stores because they can't afford to shop anywhere else. It floors me.

A few years ago there was a WalMart ad with a woman talking about how tight money was and that's why she needs WalMart—and her cart was full of stuff like decorative pillows. Do we really NEED decorative pillows? No. Somebody convinced us that society wouldn't accept us if we don't follow the corporate-induced "norms" and we "deserve" to have all this stuff.

Has having access to all this cheap stuff really improved any of our lives? If all these companies weren't out there convincing us we "need" all this stuff, we wouldn't be trying to find the best prices on it. We would simply live without it. I don't think life would be any worse, and the earth would be much happier for it.
post #100 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoHappy View Post

A few years ago there was a WalMart ad with a woman talking about how tight money was and that's why she needs WalMart—and her cart was full of stuff like decorative pillows. Do we really NEED decorative pillows? No. Somebody convinced us that society wouldn't accept us if we don't follow the corporate-induced "norms" and we "deserve" to have all this stuff.

Has having access to all this cheap stuff really improved any of our lives? If all these companies weren't out there convincing us we "need" all this stuff, we wouldn't be trying to find the best prices on it. We would simply live without it. I don't think life would be any worse, and the earth would be much happier for it.
Good point. But again, it's easier for someone with limited resources to go to one place to buy cheap (icky) food, plastic spoons to cook with, cheap pans and dishes, and cheaply made clothes than it is to go from place to place looking for good deals on quality items. Just another way convenience costs more in the long run.

And, even if you go shopping around, you still run into a lack of quality. I went to a high end store out of desperation the other day looking for a top to match a skirt my dd received as a gift. The only thing we found that fit her and matched had no hem! It was just cut off and left unhemmed with the raw edge. Granted, it was a knit fabric that wasn't going to ravel, but for $30 marked down I expect better. We're still looking for the particular style she wants in her size.: Even with choices and a car, I didn't find what I was looking for in an entire day of shopping.
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