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Ma'am, would you please put out your ciggerette? - Page 5

post #81 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage_SS View Post
so then we all agree that smoking is unhealthy, but people are free to do whatever they want. We agree that its true that its not illegal to smoke at that park, but it was *somewhat* thoughtless of the woman to smoke right there.

Left or right?
correct.

For the most part I've found that there are a lot of things that mean a lot more to me now that I have kids that just didn't occur to me before. It's always possible the woman was just clueless instead of intentionally inconsiderate.
post #82 of 88
Some of the keys aren´t working on my keyboard, so forgive me if this is difficult to read...

Quote:
Originally Posted by queenjane View Post
Have you talked to the staff members? Approached them nicely and explain that the cig smoke is bugging you? They probably have no idea that it reaches your office. I've personally found that smokers are pretty amenable to moving or putting out a cig. if they know i'm bothered, and esp if i ask politely and dont try to make it into a moral issue.
Actually, I haven´t. And there is a reason for that. You might recall what I described of my most recent experience in asking folks with whom I actually have a relationship who smoke to make accomodations. I did so in a totally nice way, without making it a moral issue whatsoever, and well, I described what happened. And that was when the health of a little baby was involved...a baby who these people could hear breathing while they were on the phone with dw and dw was in a totally different room from the baby with both doors shut! They heard him struggle to breathe, damnit!! I think that experience has me justifiably freaked out about letting folks who I work with everyday know that the smoke smell is reaching my office.

While you heard this tone in our conversation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by queenjane View Post
like its a moral issue, those horrible smokers who dont care if they are killing those around them.
I was struck by the following tone, which I felt started well before any so called moralistic attitudes came to the forefront...

Quote:
Ya think? She's outside in a public space...while you're at it you might as well ask people driving by the park not to due to the noxious exhaust fumes. Unless there is a "smoke free" sign or bylaw in place there's nothing you can really do...so don't be surprised at her reaction.
That is, the tone of how dare any of us question someone lighting up at the sandbox where children are playing...I mean really, how can we expect to be treated decently after getting in someone´s business like that...We are just asking for it! I mean geesh, why don´t we go ahead and corral our three children, including the nursing babe, and just move the hell away if it bothers us so much. It´s a free damn country and to hell with consideration for others. If it isn´t illegal, even if your kid is severely asthmatic and the smoke does threaten his health, then butt out.



Which came first, the chicken or the egg...

I certainly didn´t have such an attitude about how inconsiderate many smokers can be until I experienced horrendous behavior in response to reasonable non morally based requests. No, it´s not a huge moral issue to me. I don´t sit around worrying about it. But I shouldn´t have to never walk down a public sidewalk in my city because my son happens to have asthma and you know, the burden ought to be on me to keep him away from smoke. That is a moral issue, an ethical issue, and not just a legal question.

Sorry, but dm´s right when she says
Quote:
Nonsmokers have just as much right as smokers to be in public places, and to me, it's a no-brainer that the person who bears the most responsibility in this situation is the one who is doing something that could potentially harm others..



Quote:
I think a big reason why there are always crowds of smokers around doors outside is that there is no place to smoke *inside* (due to anti-smoking regulations), and these people can't stray far because they have to get back to work. Dont know what the solution to that is, other than forcing everyone to quit..
Sorry, I beg to differ on this too. Yes, there is no place to smoke inside, and nor should there be, in my opinion. But that isn´t forcing smokers to smoke around doors where there are overhangs. Smokers could take up the burden of their own addictions and smoke 25 feet from doorways, and enjoy a little sun when it is out and suck it up when it is raining or snowing or windy. 25 won´t likely make them late getting back to work. In fact, I know for certain that the particular folks in question in your exchange with me could take longer breaks if they wanted, if they really wanted to get away from the building. It´s not my addiction, and I shouldn´t have to have the headache for the rest of the day as a price for the addiction of the person who won´t walk 25 feet away from the door to take up the burden of their own addiction. It´s not my son´s addiction, and he doesn´t need to suffer so someone can stay dry to feed their addiction. Nope, no way. He is an innocent child with precious lungs that are working very hard to survive this world.

I know, I know. Addiction is rough. That´s why I am not asking anyone to quit. Just to have some consideration and take responsibility.

But I think the real evidence that the lack of places to smoke indoors is not the issue is that even in places where there are designated smoking areas...as in covered shelters for smokers, you still have people trying to hang out by the doors and get away with smoking there. Even when there is a covered walkway to the smoking area and it is less than fifty feet away...yep, I am talking from experience here at a particular airport where I happen to have to spend a lot of my time. And it doesn´t have to be somebody who has to get back to work. In fact, they can even tell you they are going to be waiting a whole other hour before they have to be anywhere. And believe me, a kind, friendly, non moralistic tone is not going to get these folks to move the fifty damn feet to the designated smoking area, even if you do have your severely asthmatic child with you, along with another child, and both your children have special needs and you are doing your best to keep them with you and keep all six pieces of luggage with you and the two huge toddler car seats and have virtually no mobility and they have one tiny lousy piece of luggage that they are using to sit on instead of the nice benches that cost tax payer dollars to erect so they can have a place to smoke.

Ahem.

So really, what you gave is an excuse for bad behavior. For a lack of respect and care for others. And it is all too common these days. And I simply won´t condone it.



Do I sound harsh and moralistic...yes I do. Yes I do. It´s just been one too many times. I didn´t start out this way.

And in fact, the folks who live near me who are in my life who smoke would be surprised to hear this out of me. Because I don´t go around spouting this stuff you know. But I have very politely asked a smoker to move when I absolutely have had to...obviously not often given what I described at the start of this post...and it seems to me that I get a 50-50 chance of either having hate spewed my way or having a very kind, ammenable, polite response back. And those odds just seem a darn shame. And so here, online, where I am not asking anything of you, I think it is okay for me to speak out against this behavior.

I am not saying anyone is a bad person.

I simply don´t buy that just because something is not illegal, we shouldn´t question it. Lots of things are social not legal contracts made by folks who want to engage in society together, and well, have parks together and stuff like that.
post #83 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra View Post
But I shouldn´t have to never walk down a public sidewalk in my city because my son happens to have asthma and you know, the burden ought to be on me to keep him away from smoke. That is a moral issue, an ethical issue, and not just a legal question.

snipped


Do I sound harsh and moralistic...yes I do. Yes I do. It´s just been one too many times. I didn´t start out this way.
Well, see, that's the problem. I have the same exact thing with perfumes. I can't go to a movie, or a restaurant, the grocery store, or any public place without risking a puking migraine that can cause me to miss 1-3 days with my family and 1-3 days of work from a reaction to someone else's selfish desire to douse themselves in a toxic chemical stew that leaves a trail of funk behind even after they leave.

As long as it is legal for people to use toxic products like cigarettes, cosmetics, perfumes and air fresheners, people with sensitivities will be housebound. The difference is, anti-smoking folks have lawmakers on your side and the numbers of smokers are dwindling, while the toxic chemical smells are becoming more popular all the time so the anti-perfume folks are suffering even more.

When you get sick nearly every time you leave the house, you become easily irritated and a bit harsh, yk? People who aren't affected by this stuff really take it for granted that they can go anywhere and do whatever they want without worry. Even people with other handicaps don't get called liars or crazy because of their limitations, but if you are affected by chemicals you are treated like you're making it up for attention, or to get out of stuff, as if anyone would choose to live like this. :

I was always taught that your rights end when they infringe on mine. Cigarettes and perfume in someone else's airspace fall under that category, imo.
post #84 of 88
I would never ask a smoker to put out a cigarette at the park. I am not worried over the small amount of second hand smoke that my child would inhale. I am much more concerned about other air issues. I would have a problem if they threw the cigarette butt on the ground or used the sandbox to put it out.

If my child was particularly prone to problems with second hand smoke I would say something in hopes that the person smoking would help by steering clear of my child. (and yes I do have a child who is prone to these problems, she gets "itchy breathing" and basically goes insane when she smells smoke. I have never had a person have a problem just staying away from my child while smoking and I have had to ask numerous people on 4 continents) If I run into a person who is a jerk I move on.
post #85 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
I dont know if I realized it until I quit smoking. When I was smoking, it had such a hold on me that I couldnt possibly see clearly.

I guess I should have realized that before confronting the woman.

I know what its like to be an addict.
But it sounds like you were very polite. You know, before smoking was illegal in many public spaces, people used to ask smokers to put out cigarettes. Seriously! It's not rude to ask someone not to smoke in public. The proper response of the smoker is, "I'm sorry, I'll put it out." Sometimes they would say, "Filthy habit"--that was all before the legislation and the evidence that second hand smoke is bad for health.

It's not because you have children, or because smoking is so pernicious to other people--though both of those things should factor into people's decisions about where to act on their unfortunate addictions--but because you asked nicely and it's a public place.

You were right. She was wrong. This other stuff, about how you can't expect people to conform to your values? Well, yeah, okay, but I deplore it that you can't expect people to conform to good etiquette. You can't expect people to QUIT smoking because you ask, but they aren't so overcome with shakes and delirium tremens and what have you that they can't put out ONE cancer stick.

"No, I must smoke this right here by the sandbox!" Gaah.
post #86 of 88
This post may expose my perseverative tendencies. Please feel free to ignore if you are done with this conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
Well, see, that's the problem. I have the same exact thing with perfumes. I can't go to a movie, or a restaurant, the grocery store, or any public place without risking a puking migraine that can cause me to miss 1-3 days with my family and 1-3 days of work from a reaction to someone else's selfish desire to douse themselves in a toxic chemical stew that leaves a trail of funk behind even after they leave.
I agree that this is an issue too. I think public consideration for others includes proper smell/chemical etiquette. In other words, no matter how pleasant you think a smell is, you ought not inflict it on others unecessarily. Especially when it involves chemicals, as many folks have "chemical sensitivites" (actually, all of us...some simply experience more acute effects). Actually, though he doesn't react as strongly to perfumes, air freshners, etc. as he does to cig smoke, my ds does react to these products too. We can't, for example, burn a scented candle near him. And he certainly couldn't have an air freshner in his room.

I have had the good fortune of spending a lot of time in a couple of large public institutions, as well as working in a smaller private one with a cosmetic chemical-free rule. In other words, people were asked not to wear perfume, fragrant hair sprays, etc. I think we will and/or should be seeing more places following suit in the future.

My mother wears scents, and she is a wonderful and beautiful woman who I deeply admire and respect (with some wonderful smelling body oils, etc., as well as ones I find unpleasant), but I personally feel her use of scents is unfortunate.

I think if one feels absolutely naked without a scent, they should at least do everyone the courtesy of wearing a bear, bear minimum. But for goodness sakes, most of us can survive without wearing scents, and we should bear the burden of our own chemical fixations rather than making those more chemically-sensitive folks stay at home (restricted freedom) so the rest of us can have unlimited freedom.

That said, I still don't think this is comparable to cigarette smoke, as the inhalation of cigarette smoke is a known, documented, potent carcinogen for not only users but ALL people who breathe it in, even second hand. There are folks dying even now-- with all the documented health stuff-- of lung cancer all the time, as a result of smoking. My dear grandmother was among them last year. This is not analogous to perfume.

Will a few minutes of smoke here and there give you cancer? Of course not. I haven't argued that here or elsewhere. But it can kill some folks with breathing disorders, including severe asthma (by the way, an obituary was printed in my city's paper this week for a 16 year old who died of an asthma attack...a tragic reminder that this is a deadly disease), and since it is a known carcinogen, why anyone thinks they have a moral right to smoke anywhere it is legal, regardless of who is present, confuses me.

Quote:
When you get sick nearly every time you leave the house, you become easily irritated and a bit harsh, yk? People who aren't affected by this stuff really take it for granted that they can go anywhere and do whatever they want without worry. Even people with other handicaps don't get called liars or crazy because of their limitations, but if you are affected by chemicals you are treated like you're making it up for attention, or to get out of stuff, [I]as if anyone would choose to live like this. :
post #87 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra View Post
But for goodness sakes, most of us can survive without wearing scents, and we should bear the burden of our own chemical fixations rather than making those more chemically-sensitive folks stay at home (restricted freedom) so the rest of us can have unlimited freedom.
exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra View Post
That said, I still don't think this is comparable to cigarette smoke, as the inhalation of cigarette smoke is a known, documented, potent carcinogen for not only users but ALL people who breathe it in, even second hand. There are folks dying even now-- with all the documented health stuff-- of lung cancer all the time, as a result of smoking. My dear grandmother was among them last year. This is not analogous to perfume.
Ah, but it is. The chemicals in perfumes are toxic, and it is documented.


The difference is, the perfume industry is not required to list their ingredients on their products and they are not subject to the same regulations as other products. And many of the chemicals found in cigarette smoke are in perfume. The same chemicals many people are trying to avoid in their water bottles and other products because of cancer fears are in the perfumes they are putting on their skin, and in the dryer sheets they use. One statistic says that 95% of the ingredients in perfume are petroleum based, and I'm fairly certain most of us here aren't ingesting petroleum products, with good reason. The information is out there, but our FDA is ignoring it, and they are not protecting us because despite popular belief, the FDA does not protect consumers from unsafe products.

http://ourlittleplace.com/perfume.html
http://www.ameliaww.com/fpin/FragMatTox.htm
http://www.dangerousproducts.org/fra...s_context.html
http://www.safe2use.com/health/perfume-eternity.htm
http://www.lassentech.com/eiehn03.html
http://www.immuneweb.org/articles/perfume.html
http://www.energygrid.com/health/200...fragrance.html
http://aromatherapy4u.wordpress.com/...ing-chemicals/
http://www.heall.com/medicalfreedom/toxicfragrance.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...06/ai_n8714254
http://stason.org/articles/wellbeing...rd-Part-2.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/27/news/perfume.php
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/38721
http://www.allnaturalbeauty.us/chemi...s_jrussell.htm
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/..._nation/102694
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/9682.php
http://ecomall.com/greenshopping/tigerflag.htm
http://healthinmotion.wordpress.com/...oxic-air-soup/
http://perfumehistory.blogspot.com/2...ck-part-1.html
http://www.ctaz.com/~bhima/toxchem.htm

It's great that smoking is becoming something that no longer just tolerated. Now it's time to do the same thing with other dangerous, toxic fumes we are exposed to by ignorant or inconsiderate people.
post #88 of 88
My city just banned smoking on city property. Its a $1000 fine, which I think is awesome, but I'm really curious as to how they plan on enforcing this.
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