Why vegetarian? - Page 2

[Erin Pavlina]

I once heard an interesting observation:

Put an apple on the counter over night and in the morning you can still eat it, no problem.

Put a steak on the counter overnight and in the morning it is rotten and unsafe to eat.

Another one I like is:

Bury an acorn in the ground and you get a tree.

Bury a sheep in the ground and all you get is decay.

I believe the more live food we eat, the better. Put dead stuff in, you get decay. Put live stuff in and you get life!

[oatmeal]

Erin I enjoy reading the mag very much!

Comments on eating living stuff

[Erin Pavlina]

Thanks Oatmeal. Come write for us. You seem very knowledgeable! PM me if you're interested!

[oatmeal]

Checkin' out Erin's ezine and saw this. I'm going to try it out and see if the beans are soft enough for me - being raw. Always love to find more protein out there and it sounds delicious on paper.

I am curious why the sprouting adds to the protein factor though - the scientific reason? Now I know why there so much sprouted bread to choose from at Whole Foods. Guess I'll switch if there's more protein!

Anyway cool protein recipe:

http://www.vegfamily.com/articles/pr...revolution.htm

[*LoveBugMama*]

Wow!!

Thank you so much for all the great answers, ladies!

Oatmeal: Thank you for several really great posts!

And Keysmama: I like all your reasons for not eating meat.. But the hurricane one doesn`t aply to me! LOL!
Here in old Norway hurricanes are NOT exactly on the top of my worry-list... But keeping the polarbears away from my house, on the other hand.... (Just kidding!!)

Its almost 11 pm here, and I just got home from a 3 day trip, so I will read all the answers again in the morning.

[Goosefeather]

Well, I must say, the protein argument really gets to me :

We north-americans, eat WAY too much protein. Ok, it may make some people lose weight but we all should read on the long-term effect of too much protein. This is not a joke. Even most vegetarians eat too much protein, they sometimes eat MORE of them than meat-eaters.
Researchs done by "the meat industry" or the "egg industry" really make me laugh out loud. They don't care about our health, they care about the money and not having to change themselves.

Generally, when we compare a meat diet to a non-meat diet, first and foremost, we're not even talking about a basic good diet.
If you eliminate all things refined and processed, then its a good start. Next, variety !!! A wide selection of flour : barley, rye, wheat, millet, spelt, etc. A wide selection of nuts, seeds, vegetables.
Variety, freshness, quality is the key. If you read french, I'll suggest a wonderful book. It's a complete course on healthy and natural eating. Changed my life and made thing a whole lot easier.

I love Erin's comment : meat is a cadaver. That is what it is. It's start rotting, like a human does right after death.

I agree with everything Oatmeal said, too.

I think that the reasons for vegetarianism change over time. When I first tried it, it was after seeing Babe and City Slickers. But it was hard for me because I didn't know anything about
eating well. That came over the years, reading many books like
Diet for a Small Planet, or Dr.Weil's book on eating, and so many others. I also shopped more in health food stores and tried so many new and wonderful things. Then I realized that I was feeling a lot better, physically, mentally, spiritually. In the last two years, I really learned more about the environmental damage the meat industry and this way of life is doing to our planet. How the soy we're feeding the cattle could feed the thousands and thousands of children who starve to death each week. I learned how we, mostly north-americans, are really wasting natural resources. I feel shame over that. I learned also that to be a vegetarian, means not eating animals, wherever they live in trees, on earth or in water. Before that, I though that fish didn't count as an animal. I believed that being a vegetarian was about "meat", and that was hard because people don't agree on what is and isn't "meat". I have read also, the teaching of great minds like Einstein, Thoreau, GB Shaw, Tolstoï, etc.
When I saw a show where people in "is it Korea ?" ate cats and dogs, that really made me question the "not eating intelligent animals" question. The animals we eat are intelligent, sentient animals who give and feel love. Who feel pain. Who will cry if you take their babies away. A dog really knows you. When you're sad, he comes over to comfort you, he also tries to make you laugh, and when he wants to annoy you, he knows what to do. A person in Korea would eat him without even thinking about it. And that person also believes that the more he suffers before death, the more tender the meat will be.
It is not something that only non-North-Americans do. We do that here with calves. What atrocities they suffers so that their flesh will be white.

I know that I didn't become a vegetarian overnight, as I am not becoming a vegan overnight. So I have a lot of respect for people who want to learn and do better but have a hard time of it. The first years, when I ate chicken, I didn't lie to myself saying it wasn't what it was. I tried to be patient with myself. I kept a list of great books, great quotes from wonderful people, and wonderful recipes very close by. My reasons for not eating animals changed often but I can honestly say that now, it is a complete choice, and my kids, who refused to eat animals really made me take that step totally.

So, if you ask me why I'm a vegetarian, I'll say "for all the reasons" !


Peace,

edited to add this link http://forest.fireshui.com/care/31veg.html

[irishprincess71]

Put an apple on the counter over night and in the morning you can still eat it, no problem.

Put a steak on the counter overnight and in the morning it is rotten and unsafe to eat

Bury an acorn in the ground and you get a tree.

Bury a sheep in the ground and all you get is decay.

Nice cute thoughts but not necessarily true. Just because the apple doesn't spoil over night doesn't mean that it won't spoil. And unless you plant the seed or possibly the root in some cases, you are only going to get the same decay from a plant that you get from an animal. Anyone who has composted can attest to this. The fruits and vegetables may smell less as they decay but they do decay. Because once you pick them they stop growing and start dying (laws of science).

How the soy we're feeding the cattle could feed the thousands and thousands of children who starve to death each week

There is already enough food on this planet to feed the entire planet. It is the governments that keep the food from reaching the children not lack thereof due to feeding cattle.

I do like the quote about the birds. Very telling.

edited to add:

We north-americans, eat WAY to much protein. Ok, it may make some people lose weight but we all should read on the long-term effect of too much protein

I would like to read the research on protein. However, if it is coming from the vegetarian industry it is probably just as faulty as the meat industries research. As Mark Twain once said, "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

[MamaMonica]

I think Americans eat too much fat and protein because America has a weight problem- and we are primarily a meat/animal product eating nation. Our food traditions revolve around meat and dairy- even school lunches are heavily made up our country's surplus meat and dairy. Let's face it- America is not a trim nation. Something like 60 percent of Americans are overweight.

In countries where people eat less meat- like China- people are thinner. I have been a vegetarian most of my life (do eat some dairy and eggs in baked goods still- but am working on cutting out both) and have always been slim. I don't eat a lot of protein or a lot of grain, but eat a fair amount of fat in salad dressings and nuts and things.

[allys jill]

irish princess,
it has been my experience that the "we get *too* much protein" argument comes from mainly those promoting a vegetarian diet. IME, i'm not trying to state this as fact, though. i don't know which studies here came from the 'meat and dairy' industry. (??) it is sort of commonly held belief that WAP foundation is somehow hooked up with these industries, but nothing could be further from the truth.

i agree with you about the decline and decay of all foods...it's not specific to plant or animal. if you pull out of your garden a bunch of greens and eat them right away, you derive more nutrition from them than eating them a day later. also, many people do not store eggs in the fridge and they don't necessarily spoil overnight (though just like the greens i'm assuming they are not as nutritious).

mama monica,
i think it is more complicated than that. americans eat a lot of fast food and those types of meals constitute a lot more than meat and dairy. they consist of chemicals and in many cases really poor fats. they also have tons of sugar. the american diet is also full of processed grain products (which usually also include bad fats and more chemicals and additives). i think it's oversimplifying things to say that meat and dairy are the culprits of all these diseases of lifestyle. JMO.

[cathe]

I must also disagree with the statement that americans are overweight from eating too much fat and protein. I think the problems is americans eat too much processed food - full of hydrogenated oils, sugar, and salt, the latter two which cause overeating. Processed food is mostly empty calories that does not fulfull nutritional requirements needed by the body so the neurotransmitters never signal the brain that they body is full.

Also, I feel a big problem is the amount of TV americans walk and that they drive everywhere. In France for example, the diet is very high fat/protein but they eat in moderation and walk everywhere.

I also believe that everybody is different. Some people do just fine on a vegetarian or vegan diet but personally I became very weak, skinny, anemic, had no period from the first month I went vegan, and eventually ended up in the hospital getting blood transfusions for anemia (after 10 years as a vegan). I believed books that said I did not have to worry about protein because it was in all foods so I wasn't taking precautions to make sure I ate lots of beans or nuts - just figured the veggies and grains would be enough.

I have done a lot of research since and found that I am not alone. ALso, many men do not do well without concentrated protein and fat.

Anyway, I'm not trying to make a case either way - just trying to say that everybody is different and not one diet is right for everybody.

[mirlee]

Originally posted by AnnMarie
Some advise from someone that was a vegetarian for over 8 years. If you are going to go veggie then make sure you don't eat too many of the wrong carbs. I have recently started eating meat again and am trying to eat mostly fresh whole foods instead of processed foods. The reason... I have gained so much weight since being a vegetarian it's not even funny.

I have a friend whow had the same issue. Most veggies that I know, including myself, don't eat tons of processed foods. When I do, the ingredient label is strictly read so that I know what the sodium, carb, protein and other stuff is. Vegetarians don't survive only on pasta and rice, a mistake my friend made. As with anything, being informed is the first step. Read some of the wonderful vegetarian cookbooks for ideas. Magazines like Veggie Life and Vegetarian Times are also helpful. Cooking Light and Body and Soul also have some good suggestions. I have even seen wonderful recipes and ideas in Gourmet, Bon Appetit and on Epicurious.com.

I think you should do what feels best for you. My family is loaded with veggie people, but there is a large number as well that incorporate some meat into their diets. Whatever makes you feel the healthiest is the way to go. I think you are on the right track with evaluating your food choices.

[AnnMarie]

Originally posted by Erin Pavlina
I once heard an interesting observation:

Put an apple on the counter over night and in the morning you can still eat it, no problem.

Not if you peel it.

Another one I like is:

Bury an acorn in the ground and you get a tree.

Bury a sheep in the ground and all you get is decay.

Or fertilizer to help that tree grow.

[MamaMonica]

Everyone is different. I was anemic growing up on a dairy farm eating beef liver, eggs from our own hens and unpasturized fresh milk and stayed anemic on every diet permutation I tried (including Hardees and M&Ms in college). It turned out my body was making antobodies to gluten and causing the anemia- sometimes health issues can affect what you need to eat, and of course one's survival comes first, if it comes to that.

Rigid dietary rules can be a problem if they cause ill health- and no one should ever feel wrong for choosing what brings them health. In general, for MOST people, eating whole foods low on the food chain in moderation is healthy.

I really think our meat and dairy- laden diet is not a good thing- I know there are studies on both sides of this issue. I grew up on a farm in farm country and saw all the obese people with health problemms in a time before the advent of fast food, when processed foods were still too expensive to be eaten much and whole milk, butter and beef was plentiful.

I think these things are a health concern. that is just my opinion, offered respectfully.

[morsan]

MamaMonica- I'm interested to know whether the obese farmers had access to plenty of refined carbs.

Cathe- I used to believe the stuff I read about protein too. That you can get them from basically any food. It shows just how dangerous it is when food is taken into the laboratory and checked for their nutritional content, without regards to the bioavailability of the nutrients. What comes to mind is something a raw foodist once told me about calcium, that we should be able to get enough from dark greens since cows don't drink another animal's milk to get all that calcium in their own milk. I believed her then. But now after researching more, I realize that it isn't that simple. Cows digest food differently than humans do.

Is America a primarily meat/fat eating nation? If someone can loose weight by being on the Atkins diet, and I believe that Atkins has been shown to be most effective for dieting, then fat and protein is definitely not the reason why westerners are so fat. I'm not a supporter of the Atkins diet, just thought that it proved my point about fat and protein.

[captain optimism]

The weight loss successes on the Atkins diet aren't a measure of how much or little meat the majority of people in the US are eating. It's not that people aren't eating enough meat and then getting fat, they can eat lots or a little meat and be fat or thin. You can get the same weight-loss results by doing those food-combination diets, or a totally non-fat diet like the Ornish one, or Pritikin. They are just gimmicks to get you to lower the number of calories you are ingesting. It doesn't mean that any of these macronutrients is good or bad, it just means that the dieters were able to lower their caloric intake.

Really we need a little bit of all of the macro nutrients, including fat. It's all food, it's not poison. (Well, except for food with pesticides and pollutants, they are poison .) For weight loss or mainenance, the problem is keeping a budget in which the stuff you take in is equal to or less than what you spend. (Kind of the opposite of what you want to do when you make a money budget. ) Some of that has to be your output (exercise) and not your input (food). Everyone's body is different--some people might have a very thrifty metabolism. But there's a reason they call it that!

It doesn't seem to me that whether or not you get fat is the sole measure of whether a diet is healthful. There are other issues. You need to get micronutrients (vitamins and minerals) and you need fiber. You can be nice and slim and not be getting what you need to stay healthy from your food. Some folks stay a little zaftig (Yiddish for "juicy"--you know, pleasantly plump) on a very good diet. My dad used to talk about "empty calories"--I think the idea is that all your calories should be "full"--of nutrients.

I think the most important reasons to eat a vegetarian diet have to do with the health of the planet and the health of the animals. It's easier for a lot of people to eat better when they are vegetarian, but some people can eat a very good diet that includes meat and other animal products. You have to make the decision about whether to eat meat based on what you think is good for your community, your country, and your world. And on how you feel about animals and our relationship to them. To me that last seems almost like a religious question, but it is key.

[MamaMonica]

Originally posted by captain optimism
I think the most important reasons to eat a vegetarian diet have to do with the health of the planet and the health of the animals. It's easier for a lot of people to eat better when they are vegetarian, but some people can eat a very good diet that includes meat and other animal products. You have to make the decision about whether to eat meat based on what you think is good for your community, your country, and your world. And on how you feel about animals and our relationship to them. To me that last seems almost like a religious question, but it is key.

That is very well said.

[BinahYeteirah]

bs"d

I am sorry that this thread has gotten derailed somewhat to become a thread debating the nutritional merits of vegetarianism. I am enjoying the dialogue that is occurring, however, so I'm going to continue.

I am mostly vegan (for the past 7 years) and agree with much of what has been said. I went veggie, then vegan for animal rights reasons, health reasons, etc. I feel good eating a whole foods, vegan diet, but I am always looking for ways to improve my eating habits (I wonder if I am eating too many [whole] grains, too much soy, etc.). There is so much conflicting nutrition info out there, it is really difficult to know what is right. I read critically, but, lacking a scientific nutrition background, can't really do much other that recount what works for me. I hear so many different stories about various diets that work differently for different people that I have to wonder if AnnMarie isn't right. Maybe different people do just need to eat different diets. For me, veganism works, and it is still hard for me to see how a whole foods, vegan diet wouldn't be healthful. It is great to hear everyone's nutrition philosophy. I wish there was a (somehow) unbiased scientific way to determine the optimum human diet.

What do you think is optimum?

[AnnMarie]

Originally posted by BinahYeteirah

What do you think is optimum?

This wasn't directed to me but, IMO whatever makes you look and feel the best.

And thanks for understanding what I was trying to say.

And FTR, I think some got the idea I was talking about high protein diets. I do not eat a lot of meat, and I really don't think that diets like Atkins are healthy at all because of the strain they can put on your kidneys. I added a small amount of meat to my diet to make up for what I feel was lacking. It still grosses me out to eat it, but I am.

[allys jill]

Quote:
They are just gimmicks to get you to lower the number of calories you are ingesting. It doesn't mean that any of these macronutrients is good or bad, it just means that the dieters were able to lower their caloric intake.


this above quote isn't quite true, though. atkins is not at all based on calorie restriction, but rather eating as many as you like. it's a restrictive diet in terms of macronutrients, but not calories.

i too am not saying that i support this diet, just that it does raise the question of meat and dairy being the major fat culprits as something to be questioned, as morsan pointed out.

i also think that the assumption that there is protein in all foods can be a dangerous one. i just don't believe that everyone is meant to eat higher-carb diets...i think there are different ratios for every individual.

[MamaMonica]

A diet that isn't high in animal protein is not necessarily a diet high in carbs.