help...mould issues discovered, cannot affored repairs, what would you do...

[canuckgal]

I have posted a while ago about my misery with my house we bought in Mar last year. Well, basically now we have found some pretty major mold. We had an inspection done before buying, and knew there was a bit of mold on one wall in the basement but were given the impression that it was just surface (lots of boxes against the wall) and we knew we would have to remove a panel of drywall in that room. We improved the slope of the soil on that side of the house and added eavestroughs. No other mold evident elsewhere. We knew we had to do a roof, windows, furnace (that's already done) and some cosmetic things like carpet. That seemed manageable to us, to do a little at a time. That was before we found this mold problem, and before dh was diagnosed with sarcoidosis this summer...he is still unable to work more than a day or two in a row and his long term health is uncertain.

Well, we are finding LOTS more mold, as in the black stuff, all disguised very well until I have started painting, and it looks alot more than just surface . I have found evidence in the basement in a bedroom of rotted drywall, with panelling over it (the hideous stuff in old mobile homes) that has been painted over, and the mold is coming through the panelling and you can see it has grown through it AND the drywall. I took some off the wall, right down to the plastic layer/insulation, and the mold is that deep. The wall just crumbles in my hand. I have also found evidence of wet drywall in ds room, that they painted over, and we and the inspector totally did not detect this either. The paint is coming off in my hand and the paper layer of drywall crumbling with it.. I opened up his attic access in the wall, and at the end of it (where his wet corner is, the other spot is under a window) the boards are just black.

Oooooo boy. I am so upset. We are talking to a lawyer this week (as to the possibility they deliberately covered the worst of it up), and calling in a tester/remediator for an estimate. Unfortunately what would hurt our chances in a suit is that we DID know there was SOME mold in the house, maybe would be told we should have put two and two together about the slope of the yard, etc. Like our realtor said, a lot of it is buyer beware.

We cannot afford to repair this mold, as in ripping out walls and repairing them, and likely will have to do more major things like fixing the source of the leaks.(moisture from the roof, attic insulation, poor sealed window, etc) Re doing the roof, and increasing the attic insulation could have waited a while, but now it looks like it can't and we are NOT PREPARED. Who knows what is behind the foundation/those walls in the basement! We cannot renegotiate our mortgage as we had no down payment. Dh gets no sick benefits because of the type of employee he is, and does not qualify for unemployment insurance sick benefits either. We have a 20,000 student loan, and a 25,000 consolidated debt. (2 vehicles plus a Visa) which I have arranged auto withdrawal on to be paid over 5 years. .

So, if it is deemed needing major repairs, say like 20-30,000.00 or something, would you seriously consider bankruptcy/selling the house as is (It does have a gorgeous lot, maybe someone would want it and tear the house down) I am not sure (I am in Canada) what would happen with the mortgage though.

Basically, I have to make a lot of phone calls, but if in the end I find out this is what would happen (the repair costs) I am so tempted to bail out and declare bankruptcy if we could. We have had excellent credit until now, and have NEVER found ourselves in trouble like this. Eeeek.

What would you all do? Help!


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[mightymoo]

Canadian law may be different, but in the US it is pretty hard to sue for something like that because real estate does have the concept of caveat emptor, buyer beware. You might however be able to sue your home inspector, they have insurance for that purpose, but home inspectors are not allowed to do damage to a home to discover its issues, so if it was not something he could have discovered he may not be at fault, and his insurance company will certain defend that. However, that would not stop me from pursuing those avenues.

I would not panic yet, I would get a remediation company in, have the mold tested to figure out what kind it is, what has to be done to remediate it, just where exactly it is. I would get more than one quote for remediation too. I would cut (or have the mold person cut) a small hole in every wall in the house to look for more mold, drywall is easy to repair, but you wouldn't want to miss something.

Once you know exactly what you are looking at you'll have a better idea of your best course of action. I definitely would consider a bankruptcy / foreclosure situation if it came to that, certainly. But I'd want to know all my options.

[beansricerevolt]

I would get out asap if your unable to fix it. Even if you can fix it, you and your children should stay somewhere else during the process.
Black mold, heck any mold at the length your talking, is not safe for anyones health.

I rented a house one time that I suspected had black mold. After living there for a month, DD who was 2 at the time, was sick with a chest cold almost every single day. I had a health inspector (friend of the family) come and look at it and found out it was all over the place. We were forced to move right away. Imagine packing a whole house in 2 days
My old land lord had the house torn down because it was just to much work.

[mamatowill]

Hugs. I was wondering if after you find out an estimate you can call around to contractors and see if anyone does a home handyman show which could help- even call Holmes on Homes and see what they suggest. Other than that I really don't have any advice because this kind of situation is what scares me about home ownership. I have been living in a place with mold for a few years and I think that DS's asthma is directly related to that.

[beccalou79]

Originally Posted by canuckgal

dh was diagnosed with sarcoidosis this summer...he is still unable to work more than a day or two in a row and his long term health is uncertain.

No advice about the house, but I can't help but wonder: Could his sarcoidosis be related to the mold?

Hugs to you, mama!

[xekomaya]

I would call your homeowners insurance company. They may cover a place for you to stay while the mold remediation is going on, they may cover the mold remediation depending on the area you live in & your policy.

I also can't help but say, you shouldn't be in the house. Mold is not good for you, and with the suspicion of black mold & your DH's health problems, I wouldn't stay there another night. Is there family you can stay with until the inspectors come?

[mtm]

We moved our furnace in the fall and found mold on the brick wall behind it. Luckily our condo covered it, it was pretty intensive to repair it. Took them 3-4 days and they completely sealed in two rooms to do the work so none of the mold escaped. Cost around 4000 (I'm in Toronto). I'd consider walking away from a home with severe mold issues. If the old owner hid the severity of the mold you may have a case against them, definitely something to ask a lawyer about. Does your city have any mold remediation programs that could help with the cost?

[Rhiannon Feimorgan]

I want to add my voice to those saying find another place to stay asap!

I wish i had some advice on the financial aspect. Talk to your insurance provider.

[Tofu the Geek]

I would call a real estate lawyer and check if there is any sort of "duty to disclose defects" in your province. For example, in our province, the seller must disclose "latent" defects, which is defects that are not discoverable by observation.

[ChattyCat]

I don't know. That really sucks. In the US, there's usually not a duty to disclose. A seller usually has the option of saying "no, there's no mold" or "we make no statement as to whether there's mold." Most people will choose not to make a statement, even if they don't think there's mold, because that way they can't be sued. If the seller says there's not mold, and the seller should have known, that's the only time that a buyer really has any recourse.

I wouldn't live in the house. That really sucks.

[miss_sonja]

Can you have the tear-down done yourselves and put up a manufactured home or mobile?

[starling&diesel]

Oh dear, what a nightmare!

Did they sign the disclosure statement?
ie. in ours the question is: "Are you aware of any leakage or unrepaired damage?" The owner has to tick off yes or no and sign it.

We're in BC.
We went back to the disclosure statement in one of our houses that had carpenter ants, which had clearly been gnawing for a while. It was a small town, so we talked to the old owners directly, and when they feigned ignorance, we threatened them with court and they ended up paying for the exterminator.

Can you prove that they covered it up intentionally?

[canuckgal]

update...

[QUOTE=beccalou79;10462077]No advice about the house, but I can't help but wonder: Could his sarcoidosis be related to the mold?

Don't know, but am pretty sure it couldn't be proven, as no one knows what really causes it for sure, and looking back he was showing mild symptoms before we moved here last year. Although living here long term would not help. Also, statistically, 9/11 rescue workers, as a group, have a higher incidence. Dh also used to work at a gold mine (security, but not underground alot). So, who knows where he could have been exposed to aggravating factors?

Originally Posted by xekomaya

I would call your homeowners insurance company. They may cover a place for you to stay while the mold remediation is going on, they may cover the mold remediation depending on the area you live in & your policy.

Talked to insurance the other day, and no help there, in any aspect of this.

Originally Posted by TechnoGranola

I would call a real estate lawyer and check if there is any sort of "duty to disclose defects" in your province. For example, in our province, the seller must disclose "latent" defects, which is defects that are not discoverable by observation.

Originally Posted by starling&diesel

Oh dear, what a nightmare!

Did they sign the disclosure statement?
ie. in ours the question is: "Are you aware of any leakage or unrepaired damage?" The owner has to tick off yes or no and sign it.

Can you prove that they covered it up intentionally?

I am in the process of talking to a lawyer, e mailing few pictures of what I am seeing. The inspection contract basically states the inspector is not responsible for what they don't see, as they don't do destructive inspecting....fair enough. Apparently, the previous owners suddenly foreclosed after living in here for 20 years....hmmmm : Makes me wonder if they covered alot of things up, (alot of the basement was fairly recently renovated) and bailed out of Dodge. Unfortunatley it may be NOT in our favor we got an inspection, as we had a "trained eye" seeing things. We knew there was some mold in the basement on one wall, but now, poking around even further yesterday, I pulled a small area out under the bathroom sink (there is a wall between the bath and the bedroom where I am discovering new mold concealed under drywall and panelling placed over top of it, rotted right through...this was all painted and not visible) and it is obvious to me that we will have to gut the whole bathroom, 3 rooms in the basement, as well as ds room upstairs PLUS do things like improve the attic insulation/do the roof right away (which I think caused the rot in ds's walls). I do not know yet what the previous owners signed for disclosure statement. WE also knew there was SOME mold....but it sounded to us from the inspector like it was in the one room in the basement only and was surface, but we would just need to improve the slope of that side of the house, and replace the piece of drywall. Perhaps a defence lawyer would question us as to why we didn't walk away then. It didn't sound that bad of a deal to us honestly, dealing with this "little bit" of mold. It is the mold that I am finding in places like the upstairs, in the attic space, the soft wall in ds room that is really getting to me.

The remediation person is coming Sat. I know already this is way out of our league, our line of credit is maxed according to our income, and we would not be able to afford this extra expense. I have been looking on the web at Canadian bankruptcy law. It sounds like that we would NOT lose our house in a bankruptcy, as we have so little equity in it yet...eeek!!! I am going to have to talk to our agent about foreclosure and its consequences, but who wants a moldy house? Now FOR SURE everyone will know it has major mold problems. We cannot afford to fix it up and run like it looks like the previous owners maybe have done. I imagine the bank would lose money if we forclosed and we paid the difference and went bankrupt then, I don't know. We are making an appointment with a trustee soon.

I was drying clothes yesterday, and praying that the dryer would just catch on fire. At least then insurance would help!

[mightymoo]

You might also look into doing a deed in lieu of foreclosure. I don't know if it exists in canada, but its an option that is a little less than foreclosure. It still looks bad on your credit, but not as bad. It basically means you give the bank the house. There are probably conditions, but it is another option to consider.

You know, this makes me think the next time I buy a house, I'm going to write into the offer contract that we are allowed to do a "destructive" mold inspection and drill small holes in the walls to check for mold.

[CathMac]

[QUOTE=canuckgal;10477562]

Originally Posted by beccalou79

... I am in the process of talking to a lawyer, e mailing few pictures of what I am seeing. The inspection contract basically states the inspector is not responsible for what they don't see, as they don't do destructive inspecting....fair enough. Apparently, the previous owners suddenly foreclosed after living in here for 20 years....hmmmm : Makes me wonder if they covered alot of things up, (alot of the basement was fairly recently renovated) and bailed out of Dodge. ... (

I am completely unfamiliar with Canadian law. To the extent that U.S. and Canadian law are both rooted in English law my ramblings here may be helpful to you.

In the states you could easily be stuck between a rock and a hard place. To my knowledge, in the U.S. the Seller cannot deliberately disguise a material defect and then hide behind the Buyer's ability to do an inspection. Additionally in some jurisdictions, perhaps most, there is an affirmative duty to disclose a material defect, especially if it is not likely discoverable by visual inspection. ("Material" generally meaning one that has an effect on the value of the house, which is clearly the case here.) The problem is proving that any "cosmetic work" was done in an effort to disguise a problem. Worse yet, if you bought it from the bank they may have "plausible deniability".

It is possible that the bank did know and did some cosmetic repairs but proving that could take some time, energy and effort. Unless you can figure it out on your own (see further below for suggestions on this.)

The first question I would ask an attorney is how likely it is that the bank did an inspection. My guess is that they generally don't inspect foreclosed properties for the very reason that once they know about a problem they probably either have to fix it or disclose it.

The next question is how hard it would be to get ahold of the owners the bank foreclosed on and ask them if they knew about the mold and if so whether they told the bank. Better yet, can they document that they told the bank?

In the unlikely event that you used a Buyer's Agent then the duty may be higher there, since their duty would be to you and not the Seller. Don't confuse a second "seller's agent" with a buyer's agent. Just because the agent you worked with isn't the "listing agent", doesn't mean that they were "your" agent. They just happen to be the seller's agent working directly with the buyer.

Bottom line, you need to follow up with an attorney to weigh your options.

In the meanwhile I would take time dated videos and pictures of the mold and the apparent cosmetic cover ups. Any attempts to clean up or remediate the mold may destroy any evidence that would suggest that someone tried to disguise the problem so you want to document that evidence as best you can. Proving who, if anyone, is responsible is a separate issue.

I should note that the inspection is problematic for you but not necessarily fatal. The reason U.S. sellers generally have an affirmative duty to disclose any hidden material defects is precisely because a visual inspection won't reveal the problem. To the extent that a visual inspection couldn't detect the full scope of a problem the seller has a duty to disclose the scope. Which is precisely why it is so important to document what was hidden, because it creates an inference that the previous owner (if not the bank) knew about it. The problem is trying to impute that knowledge to the bank.

Also, this is where having a buyer's agent is helpful since a good one will suggest asking the seller directly about the scope of the problem and/or negotiating the ability to do a more thorough inspection, using destructive testing if necessary. If you were working with a buyer's broker and they didn't suggest these options then arguably you were harmed due to their negligence. Note, a Seller's agent doesn't work for you and --like their client-- would only be responsible for disclosing any material defect they are aware of.

One more thing, this is a bit of a long shot but if the bank doesn't know you've discovered the problem yet try calling them and seeing if you can figure out which department could tell you who in your area cleans, paints and preps their foreclosures for sale. The seller's agent may also be able to tell you this. If you get one or two names try giving them a call and asking what if any work they did on the property.

Or try asking the neighbors if they saw any work trucks in the area any time between when the bank took the property over and when they sold it to you. If so, ask if they can remember the names on the side of the trucks, vans, etc.

As a practical matter, if any painting is done in trendy or "personal taste" type colors then it probably isn't something the bank did. If the paint is fresh and the colors are neutral whites and beige there is a pretty good chance the bank had the work done to "freshen it up" for sale.

Although, non-neutal colors don't always tell the whole story. My friend bought a foreclosure with a living room seemingly freshly painted in peach. She thought it was an odd color for a bank to paint it until she realized it was originally orange and the bank put one or two coats of offwhite over it.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

~Cath

[Piglet68]

I am so sorry you are dealing with this. Those of us slaving away to be homeowners would be well advised to read your story.

A few things. You paid zero-down and you have basically no equity in the house. If you walk away from it you've lost no money, just bad credit.

Even then, you may be okay. Once you've confirmed this is not going to be fixed without you footing the bill, I would go to your bank and tell them the truth - you are walking away from this mortgage. They will almost certainly want to help you as leaving them with a mold-infested home means they aren't going to recoup their losses at all. They might want to work with you on this to find a solution that helps both of you.

I agree with everybody else who says you must vacate that home immediately. Mold is very bad for children and you could create serious, lifelong lung damage by keeping them there. It's a horrible thought to have to pack up and leave, but perhaps you can find a rental for the same price as your mortgage (again, after letting the bank know what's happening and that you won't be making any more mortgage payments).

This must be incredibly stressful for you and your family. I'm so sorry this happened!

[cjr]

There are disclosure laws in Canada. When you sell a home you must sign a statement that you are not aware of any issues. If you can prove that they deliberately covered the mold up with paint and building materials, then you should have a case. However, if it was a forclosure and the bank sold you the house keep in mind that banks have lots of money and could tie you up with a lot of court costs.

This happened to a a friend of mine. She found a leak in a basement sink. She found newspaper shoved in a pipe. Tempory plug I guess. The newspaper had a date on it and so she had a really good case. The seller's obviously knew about the leak and tried to cover it up before selling. Unfortuneately they had a lot of money and her court costs were just too much for her to handle.

Good luck. We just bought a new house. We build or previous house so we were really nervous about buying a used home. The second day we were in the basement roof started leaking. We knew there had been a leak because there was water damage. The owners told us it was a dishwasher and it had been repaired. They obviously lied. The inspector said the drywall was rigid so he didn't think it was much of an issue. Turned out to be a busted sink pipe. The pipe was being held together by a thin peice of plastic. We were so lucky the whole thing didn't burst. We were blessed with a neighbour who was a plumber and offered to fix it for us. He charged us $20 for materials. However, it could have been a catastrophy. Had we not been able to fix it so easily I would have gotten a lawyer and made them deal with it, as it was obviously something they knew about. There was also no evidence of a leaky dishwasher, it was just a lie so they could sell the house which had been sitting for a few months.

[canuckgal]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

A few things. You paid zero-down and you have basically no equity in the house. If you walk away from it you've lost no money, just bad credit.

Even then, you may be okay. Once you've confirmed this is not going to be fixed without you footing the bill, I would go to your bank and tell them the truth - you are walking away from this mortgage. They will almost certainly want to help you as leaving them with a mold-infested home means they aren't going to recoup their losses at all. They might want to work with you on this to find a solution that helps both of you..

This must be incredibly stressful for you and your family. I'm so sorry this happened!

I have sent everything off to the lawyer today. This was not a forclosure sale that we knew of and we found out in the lawyers office when we signed, and he didn't know that either, and it was not advertised by either real estate agent or a bank as such. It didn't set alarm bells off for us that maybe there would be mold problems, and perhaps it should have. How naive we were. I think that here the banks give you a chance to sell or something and the previous owner got out while they still could.

I am not sure what is going to happen now. My understanding is that you do not have much recourse of bailing out of your mortgage if you go bankrupt and have as little equity as we do, at least according to our bankruptcy laws. Again, I will have to talk to a trustee. I will have to find out what is going on in the foreclosure route...I imagine that you would have to deal with the bank's loss somehow...maybe go bankrupt on the loss, but according to prebankrupt conduct it does not look good to ditch things like a house either. I cannot fix this place up like they would want to. We cannot pay mortgage plus rent another place, our only family to live with would be our inlaws in their trailer, if we have to we have to and did for 2 months when we moved here and THAT was enough. I am still living here, and and trying come to grips with leaving because of the mold I am not ready to run screaming into the street and burn all my things on the front lawn, but ds is sleeping in our room now. Either way, we are S.O.L!

And yes, this is stressful. I have cried so much in the last few days, and the tv has been babysitting my kids BIG TIME because I don't want to talk to or interact with anyone, I have been short with them and am being a horrible homeschooling mom. At least I am working the next two nights so that is a distraction for me.

[Tofu the Geek]

I hope the lawyer gets back to you with something positive!

I will say though, that if you can avoid bankruptcy, avoid it! Unless they have changed something recently, it stays on your record for 7 years AFTER your discharge, and the discharge usually takes 3 years. That means it's on your credit for 10 years. That's a LONG time and will affect you getting another house, credit cards, vehicle loans and can affect you renting a place (some rental companies do credit checks before they will rent to you) and can even affect you getting a job (my place of employment is required to do credit checks on potential employers due to working with credit cards and if you have bad credit, you don't get hired).

[starling&diesel]

Tina ... my heart goes out to you, mama. This must be so hard for you and your family.

I worry that engaging in a legal battle with an unlikely outcome will put undue strain on your family's health and well being and, of course, finances. Where would you live during litigation? What if you are out costs that are not recompensed in the end?

I'm thinking on this as if it were my own situation ... from what you've shared with us, I do believe I would walk away, take the financial hit, and if you have the time, money or energy after, pursue compensation.

Do you have subsidized housing in your town? Is it half decent? What's the waiting list like? I've been a safe housing advocate and know that if you came to me with your story, I would bump you waaaaaaaay up the priority list. First come familes fleeing violence, then come families with unsafe housing with no way out. It is that serious, hon. Talk to your local social service provider and grill her about your alternatives. It's not for ever ... just until you bounce back from this monumental learning curve.

I'll send prayers your way...