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Help me convice DH that buying DS a toy kitchen is not "gay" - Page 6

post #101 of 160
Yeah, I hear that, Amanda. I've just had way too many people say crap like this within ear shot of me, then act all surprised when I point out to them that it's offensive to me.
post #102 of 160
It's an offensive comment, it's a slur, no matter if it was intended to insult gay people directly or not. Makes no difference.
post #103 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by frog View Post
Yeah, I hear that, Amanda. I've just had way too many people say crap like this within ear shot of me, then act all surprised when I point out to them that it's offensive to me.
I totally get this!! And I agree that it's important to point out that it's offensive. But I *don't* think that calling them names in return and refusing to engage is the best way to handle the situation, if there's any indication at all that the person is an otherwise decent person (and I'm not saying that is what *you* do, only that the thread was going in that direction). I *do* think that there's a difference between what the OP's dh said (slur though it might be) to his wife, and outright, direct slurs that are *intended* to hurt. I, too, would not engage with someone intending to hurt or malign another, because it would take a stronger power than me to change the heart of someone that filled with hate. With the given information, I'm not inclined to think that the OP's dh is filled with hate -- I'm inclined to think that it's possible that his mindset could change, and want to remain open to that possibility.

post #104 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
It's an offensive comment, it's a slur, no matter if it was intended to insult gay people directly or not. Makes no difference.
:


-Angela
post #105 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
It's an offensive comment, it's a slur, no matter if it was intended to insult gay people directly or not. Makes no difference.
For the folks who don't think the question was meant to be offensive. I agree. I don't believe (for the little I know about OP and family) that there was any intent to insult or be derogatory towards anyone.

However, this lack of understanding is exactly the point.

Both the statement and the assumptions behind it are misogynistic and homophobic. Period. The overt intentions may be benign, but the implicit meanings and assumptions are very very poisonous.

In these situations, it is imperative that we call people on it. Hell, when I was a teenager, I used the word "gay" to mean lame, and I got called on it - hard - by a friend, who pointed out how offensive this was. I got it. I had to learn the hard way. And I am still learning. It can take a lifetime to unlearn a all the bigotry, unfortunately.

Hopefully, the OP and her dh have learned both a little about how loaded both these terms and these approaches to gender and sexual orientation are. Again, I don't believe there was any intention of ill will - but a great deal of evil can be caused by ignorance.
post #106 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by siobhang View Post
For the folks who don't think the question was meant to be offensive. I agree. I don't believe (for the little I know about OP and family) that there was any intent to insult or be derogatory towards anyone.

However, this lack of understanding is exactly the point.

Both the statement and the assumptions behind it are misogynistic and homophobic. Period. The overt intentions may be benign, but the implicit meanings and assumptions are very very poisonous.

In these situations, it is imperative that we call people on it. Hell, when I was a teenager, I used the word "gay" to mean lame, and I got called on it - hard - by a friend, who pointed out how offensive this was. I got it. I had to learn the hard way. And I am still learning. It can take a lifetime to unlearn a all the bigotry, unfortunately.

Hopefully, the OP and her dh have learned both a little about how loaded both these terms and these approaches to gender and sexual orientation are. Again, I don't believe there was any intention of ill will - but a great deal of evil can be caused by ignorance.


*
post #107 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by siobhang View Post
For the folks who don't think the question was meant to be offensive. I agree. I don't believe (for the little I know about OP and family) that there was any intent to insult or be derogatory towards anyone.

However, this lack of understanding is exactly the point.

Both the statement and the assumptions behind it are misogynistic and homophobic. Period. The overt intentions may be benign, but the implicit meanings and assumptions are very very poisonous.

In these situations, it is imperative that we call people on it. Hell, when I was a teenager, I used the word "gay" to mean lame, and I got called on it - hard - by a friend, who pointed out how offensive this was. I got it. I had to learn the hard way. And I am still learning. It can take a lifetime to unlearn a all the bigotry, unfortunately.

Hopefully, the OP and her dh have learned both a little about how loaded both these terms and these approaches to gender and sexual orientation are. Again, I don't believe there was any intention of ill will - but a great deal of evil can be caused by ignorance.


Yes, and I think you explained it really well (and nicely, which is refreshing). OP, this is a great post - I don't know if you are still reading these, but I hope you read this one!!
post #108 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by siobhang View Post
For the folks who don't think the question was meant to be offensive. I agree. I don't believe (for the little I know about OP and family) that there was any intent to insult or be derogatory towards anyone.

However, this lack of understanding is exactly the point.

Both the statement and the assumptions behind it are misogynistic and homophobic. Period. The overt intentions may be benign, but the implicit meanings and assumptions are very very poisonous.

In these situations, it is imperative that we call people on it. Hell, when I was a teenager, I used the word "gay" to mean lame, and I got called on it - hard - by a friend, who pointed out how offensive this was. I got it. I had to learn the hard way. And I am still learning. It can take a lifetime to unlearn a all the bigotry, unfortunately.

Hopefully, the OP and her dh have learned both a little about how loaded both these terms and these approaches to gender and sexual orientation are. Again, I don't believe there was any intention of ill will - but a great deal of evil can be caused by ignorance.
I agree w/this completely! And as I said above, I do think it's imperative to call people on it. In my original post (on page 4, I think), I said that it was an uneducated remark. I doubt, however, that much education and change (which is what I was calling for in that post, and subsequent ones) is going to take place once the word "homophobic" comes into play. Evil is often caused by, or at the very least, exacerbated by ignorance -- but refusing to engage with that ignorance when true hatred is absent and assigning labels/name calling in a tit for tat manner only compounds the problem. Once the name calling starts, the hearts and minds close, and no further progress can be made. I doubt that her husband made it past the first page.
post #109 of 160
I think if you don't call a spade a spade, or a homophobic comment, well... homophobic... people just dance merrily along thinking they have the right to speak in those ways, that it is an acceptable viewpoint meritous of real debate. Which it's not. It's homophobic.
post #110 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa View Post
Cooking is not specific to one gender, and cooking does not have anything to do with sexual orientation/identity. Your Dh is stuck in a very narrow mindset, and it's one that is particularly destructive to children, IMO.

Has he (Dh) ever used a stove? Scrambled an egg? Boiled macaroni? Ask him if he's gay.

And even if it could "make him gay", which it cannot... why would that be bad?
;yeah I can't wait to have a house big enough for a toy kitchen. I love a man who can cook and seeing Dh doesn't I better get crackin on ds. I love a good "air" souffle or a block pancake.
post #111 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I think if you don't call a spade a spade, or a homophobic comment, well... homophobic... people just dance merrily along thinking they have the right to speak in those ways, that it is an acceptable viewpoint meritous of real debate. Which it's not. It's homophobic.
I agree that it's homophobic. I don't think that we have to dance around that. I'm not debating that.

I'm saying that when an opportunity to educate someone who is homophobic presents itself, it does no one any good whatsoever to slap the label on and run away from the conversation. The impression left was not that the comment was homophobic, but that the person was -- however true this may be, once this is said, the chance for change is gone. I've met few people who respond in a manner conducive to positive internal growth once they've been called this -- they don't suddenly say, "Ah, I get it. I should respect everyone, and not use offensive slurs and stereotypes." I've known several people whose viewpoints on this matter changed significantly over time, partly because of my strong influence, but not once did I need to insult them in order to point out how insulting and ugly their biases were. If they had indeed been unredeemable, they wouldn't have had a place in my life to begin with, and I would probably have told them they were homophobic and left them to their own wickedness. A father of a friend of mine is indeed this way, and I have nothing to do with him, ever. I wouldn't engage him because it isn't worth my time or positive energy.

That said, since all I'm calling for is a more diplomatic manner of addressing the problem, and because I honestly know nothing about this man beyond the present conversation, I'm done. In all honesty, I do find the idea of convincing someone that a kitchen for a boy isn't "gay" a ridiculous proposition -- I wish that the OP was asking for help on how to educate her husband and open his mind and heart. In fact, I wish that more posters, including me, had responded as if that were her question.
post #112 of 160
If you want to do 'diplomacy' as you put it, have at it. But I think it's inappropriate to tell other people they should pussy foot around an issue by avoiding calling it what it is. YMMV.
post #113 of 160
Ya know, I didn't tell anyone to pussyfoot around it. Maybe my pregnancy brain is keeping me from making my point in a succinct manner.

My opinion is this: call the comment homophobic, call the attitude homophobic, call the question homophobic and refuse to answer it, but if you (not you personally) want to change anything in the life of this child, don't call his father homophobic and suggest that the child should never have been born simply because his father is being a UA violation. I find *that* inappropriate. My own father was a UA violation, and I'm very happy to be here in spite of that.
post #114 of 160
Did someone say the child should never have been born? *scratches head*
post #115 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Did someone say the child should never have been born? *scratches head*
Yes, at the beginning of the thread. Which is what prompted my original call for courtesy. In retrospect, I was too general at the beginning, but I'll blame my hormones for that.
post #116 of 160
I saw someone say racists, homophobes, etc should refrain from having kids not that this child should never have been born.

I think homophobia, racism, etc are abusive, and so I can see why people think abusive parents shouldn't have children.
post #117 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_lissa View Post
I saw someone say racists, homophobes, etc should refrain from having kids not that this child should never have been born.

I think homophobia, racism, etc are abusive, and so I can see why people think abusive parents shouldn't have children.
Actually the quote was something very close to "someone who can't deal with the possibility of his child being homosexual should do the world a favor and not have children" -- the direct implication of this given the context of the thread is that this child should not have been born, since his father at this moment in time is indicating that he can't deal with the possibility of homosexuality in his offspring.

ETA: And again I'm glad that no one decided that I shouldn't be here because of my father's personal issues. Obviously, it wouldn't matter to me if that had been the decision, but while we're looking back...
post #118 of 160
I disagree with that interpretation. It was a present/future tense. Not that it really matters.
post #119 of 160
Well, here it is, not that it matters: "I think that anyone who can't deal with the possibility of their child being homosexual should do us all a favor and refrain from having children. Along with all the racists, neo-nazis, and other bigots out there." I stand by my interpretation.

And you're right, it doesn't matter. It just struck a nerve with me. I guess we wouldn't have to worry about overpopulation if this were the case. I can't argue with it in general, but it implies to me that bigots always beget bigots.

Hopefully, the child will grow up to be infinitely more open minded than his father, and the attitude currently held by his father will be so much in the minority once the child is grown that it won't bear mentioning.

Until then, and :
post #120 of 160
Yes I saw the quote. I would agree with you if it had said this father should have refrained from having children. *shrug*

I do think these kinds of attitudes are abusive.
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