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Originally Posted by rik8144
Why do people think this is a valid question??? I have had a few people ask me this. "Oh, you didn't have him circumcised? When are you going to? Oh?! Why?"  |
In reality, this is not a question, it is a subliminal demand cloaked as a question.
By not circumcising your son, you are upsetting the status quo and you are a threat to those who did. They are setting out to remedy this situation by putting subiminal pressure on you to resolve this conflict immediately. In reality, they are demanding that you circumcise your son by trying to make you put a date on the future event. If you say it is not going to be done, they demand an explanation by asking "Why?" The question "Why?" is not really a question but instead a set-up so that they can refute you and shame you as if you are a negligent parent. If you respond with knowledge and wisdom of the issue that refutes what they believe, often they will fall back on the myths and social justifications: "It will have to be done sooner or later and it will be much worse then!" "I wouldn't have sex with an uncircumcised man and women will reject him!" "Everybody does it!" "His friends will tease and laugh at him!" "It's a parent's choice!" "My third cousin's sister-in-law's brother's best friend's father's co-worker had to have it done as an adult!"
When all else fails, they just sulk away. Even this is a subliminal measure. It's called "shunning" and can be a very effective tactic all by itself.
The very existence of a happy and healthy boy with his foreskin still attached is a threat to them. It says that what they did was not necessary.
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Originally Posted by Cherri0196
Exaple # 2. an "aquatance" had a baby boy and i tried with her and she did it anyway, and then after she gets back from the hospital she ask's "how long did it take for my DS pee pee to heal" i said, " my DS isn't circumcised (which i told her this already) i couldn't put him through that unneccary pain" she say's " oh are you going to get him done", ah..."No".
What the H*ll?? why do people just #1 assume everyone is circ'ed, and #2 what makes them think after 15 month's im just going to magically change my mind and get him circ'ed, thats just dumb.
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See, this is an example of the subliminal message. It was clear to her that you were not going to circumcise your son but her asking the question puts pressure on you to "join the club." It was designed to put uncertainty in your mind. It's far less dumb than you think.
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Originally Posted by Perspective
why staying educated is so very important, instead of just assuming you got all the facts straight.
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Yes, vitally important! Without education, you can not be an effective voice against it. I would go a bit further and advocate becoming a specialist in at least one area. There are specialists in many areas. For instance, early on, I realized there was virtually no one in the day to day activism that could address the medical issues of RIC and later genital problems and circumcisions and saw this as an enormous hole in intactivism. There were mothers who were having problems and were desperately seeking help and there was no one who could offer more than sympathy. This fed into the belief that foreskins were normally troublesome and that things like genital infections could not be resolved by anything other than circumcision. The simple information I have been able to provide has turned that perception around completely.
Steven Svoboda, David Llewellyn and Zenas Baer along with other lawyer intactivists have addressed the legal issues along with the medical issues and they spread the legal information among other intactivists.
Dr. Ronald Goldman is a psychologist and spreads the message about the psychological issues among intactivists.
Such as Drs. Taylor, Cold, Fleiss, Van Howe and others along with nurses such as Marilyn Milos and Nurses Against Circumcision spread medical information.
There are even those who spread religious information such as Drs. Mark Reiss, Dean Edell and those in the Christian religion.
One woman I know took on the fetishists. She identified them and their organizations, compiled a history of their efforts and their personal backgrounds. She became so familiar with them that she could identify them purely from their posting style. If I remember correctly, she also associated one of them as a pedophile and reported him to the authorities.
There are specialists in legislation and approaching state legislators. These specialists have been very effective and have had a huge impact by getting Medicaid circumcisions defunded in 17 states resulting in very measurable declines in the circumcision rate in those states.
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Originally Posted by Snowcrocus
think about it this way: someone who asks "when" comes from a context where you just don't fail to circumcise. . . .that's social engineering.
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Exactly! They are not asking, they are demanding! They are trying to maintain the status quo by subliminally demanding that you circumcise your child so as not to place them in an unfavorable light.
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Originally Posted by Microsoap
Does this make you seem like you're bragging because you're educated? Well, you are! These people who ask an such ignorant, insane question aren't. I think it will give them pause for thought.
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This reminds me of a personal situation. I knew a woman who was pregnant with a son. I phoned her to talk to her. Once she learned of the topic of the call, she gave a feeble excuse to get me off the phone. "I'm very busy right now, can you call again later?" She then told a friend "He knows too much and I don't want to talk to him." with the message that I should not call back.
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Originally Posted by Finch
My sister actually asked me this question about ds2 today. I was amazed. She asked if it was "too late" when I told her he wasn't.
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Probably not amazed but shocked that you would consider upsetting the status quo. Her asking if it was too late was a subliminal message that you should do it. She knew fully well that it was not "too late."
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I admit, I was a little taken aback by her strong reaction to him NOT being circumcised. Geez.
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Her strong reaction was a hidden message that you should, not purely astonishment.
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Originally Posted by Snowcrocus
this is why i say -- don't give any info whatsoever. information may actually be detrimental. they have no information themselves -- only social inertia because "everyone does it". all you have to do is plant seeds of doubt into the "everyone does it" perception. don't just be an example of someone aberrant who doesn't do it -- make it out that someone who does is aberrant. when those seeds begin to take hold and sprout is when information will actually be effective.
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I disagree with you here. Circumcision thrives on ignorance and it's 130+ year history is prima facie evidence of that. It is only with information that it is begining to see the defeat of the circumcision monster. Some will not believe the information and some will purposely reject the information but the majority will accept the information. As there are more and more voices verbalizing the information, the more acceptable it becomes. There is an old saying that "A lie repeated often enough and loudly enough eventually becomes the truth." This has been the case with circumcision but the opposite can also be true. The more the truth is verbalized, the more likely it is to be accepted.
Just imagine this forum. If it had a single post that fully covered all aspects of circumcision and was then locked to future participation and was a "read only" forum, how much effectiveness would it have? I would venture that it would be almost totally ignored. It is only through our unified voices espousing the same message that it is effective.
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Originally Posted by Breeder
Why do I know this: because I had people yell at me when changing my DS1's diaper. I had regretted the circ the moment after it happened but the people admonishing me, well I thought they were mean spirited and cruel and although I regretted it I didn't look into it any further. I buried it.
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Yes, you did bury it . . . somewhere in your subconscious to reappear later.
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No matter that what you're saying is true, which it is.
I was moved more by my friends whose sons were just intact. They never ranted at me, they just represented the opposite.
Now DS2 will be intact thanks to those examples.
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Actually what happened is that the second set of friends reinforced what you learned from the first set of friends. It is quite probable that if there had not been the admonishments the message from the second friends would not have made much of an impact on you and you would have circumcised your second DS.
There is a place for all types of messages. The "angry man" who has just discovered what happened to him and rails against circumcision, hates his parents and wants to cause great bodily harm to the person who did it to him has shock value. He makes people think. He makes people think "what if this was my son?" The problem is that his caustic messages quickly become tiresome and there are often people from both sides of the issue who want to steal his voice. On the other hand, he does set up a situation for those who have a more calm and rational voice and people will be more accepting of their message because of the Angry Man.
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They are absolutely amazed that women do NOT run screaming from my sons in terror when they see them naked! 
: I told her it was his penis, he could get it circumcised if he so chose. I also told her I regretted having ds1 circed about 2 seconds after it was done 
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Geez.
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She tends to listen to her mother, and it horrified me to think that she might have just gone ahead with circ on her recommendation without seeking other advice. I think I'll have to do a lot of counter-indoctrinating--extended BF, homebirth etc--before she has babies, just to balance out her mother. 
