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How To Proceed  

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Hello.

This is all from a retired intactivist, so I am not going to be involved heavily in this with you, but I am presumptuous enough to imagine that I might have some idea of how this battle should be waged if it is to be won. An idea that I thought I would share.

If you are so inclined then feel free to distribute this verbatim to whoever or wherever you deem necessary.


Core
  • This manifesto asserts that the tool we must use above all is our reason.

  • Rationality must never be rejected for it is that which informs our efforts and makes our case valid on anything over the emotional level.

  • An emotional response is utterly understandable but nearly impossible to convey to those that do not share it. Using reason you can construct a case that can not be dismissed out of hand without being ignored point blank. These constructs have gotten us far and must not be discontinued.

  • A reasoned case is the ideal for this and all other attempts at social reform.

  • Science is nothing more than the application of human reason to reality. It must not be spurned but embraced by us, for if we are unwilling to use it then others with less true legitimacy will do, as they have done. It is on our side.

  • The secular case for circumcision of unconsenting parties is based around bad research, shoddy reasoning and pseudo-scientific drivel. It is only in possession of a mimicry of reason, a mockery of true sense. Rise above this.

  • To sound shrill is to set back our cause. The reactionaries promoting circumcision are dependent upon defaming us as the arguments made can not be defeated. Give them other material to work with and they will. Remember that they are out of options, while you have rationality. To rob yourself of this untouchable advantage is to sheath your sword while fighting a boxer.

  • Consider your views sceptically from time to time. Deliberate over your exact views, consider the possibility that you are wrong and then convince yourself that you are not using logic. This will allow you to relate to the position of those you encounter with ease.

  • Ignore any who tell you not to think. Impulse and whim is what keeps this nasty habit alive, along with ignorance. We can amend the latter and would do well not to emulate the former.

  • We find circumcision repulsive. Others do not and without reasoning common to both parties there will never be a meeting. We must be calm, rational and above all reasoned.

  • Cynicism is not the ally of our movement. Cynicism will not assist us. Cynicism assists nothing save degeneration. Cynicism results in passivity which results in the acceptance of the intolerable. There is an ocean of difference between scepticism, the foundation-stone of science, and cynicism, the foundation-stone of nihilism. Sceptically considering circumcision will lead to the rejection of it, cynically considering the society that allows it will lead to despair. Things can be changed, but we must make them.



Doctors
  • Doctors are not to be deemed our foes. They are indeed the perpetrators and largely the most influential advocates of this ongoing atrocity but they are not to be demonised.

  • Why would a profit-hungry beast elect to take a profession where the risk of a lawsuit and financial ruination hovers constantly overhead? Why would you devote yourself to seven years of training when being a stock market merchant will bring far higher dividends with far less preparation? They are largely people interested in helping, with some profiteers and exploiters but by no means a majority. The healthcare system of America is mangled but this is largely the fault of insurance companies rather than medical professionals. If you want change in this regard then campaign for a creation of universal healthcare along with the end of circumcision. Remember that in Britain the National Health Service's introduction was the largest factor in our astounding annual drop from almost 50% to barely past 0.

  • The depiction of them as callous opportunists damages our cause more than their reputation. Rather than assail their character and malign their intent it must be accepted that doctors, like most professionals, accept received orthodoxies. This is not a consequence of them being profit-seeking monsters but of them being human.

  • Accordingly they must be treated as they are: ignorant and misinformed. This is the same state as the standard parent, indeed the two categories of parent and doctor have been known to overlap.

  • To convince doctors of the case against is one of the most vital tasks before us, one which serious resources {especially time} must be devoted to the achievement of. For every doctor which shifts their view the majority of their patients which depend upon them for medical information will follow. This could easily ensure that hundreds of infants are saved by a single person changing their mind. This makes them a vital target for our efforts.



Parents
  • As parents are the ones that give their consent under the present system they are an obvious target for intactivism. Any pregnant woman {ultra-scans have been known to make errors, often to the cost of our movement} should not remain ignorant of the true facts concerning this issue.

  • Although this is the case the use of 'Shock Tactics' is highly unwise. There are indeed elements of the procedure that are inherently shocking but to attempt to use this either exclusively or predominantly as a means of convincing is not an approach which is useful to the progression of our agenda. This instead will largely result in “Shut down”: as the operation is so broadly accepted anyone criticising it in entirely inflammatory terms is likely to be seen as an aberration and their views disregarded, irrespective of reasoning. Although arguably of use throughout the early years this strategy has served its purpose.

  • Many parents will not accept utterly open condemnation in the harsh terms commonly used, especially those who already have had boys {a substantial majority} or those who are men or have husbands who have undergone it {in America an overwhelming majority}. To see those closest to you, or worse still to see yourself, as “Mutilated” is something that the majority will always reject and to behave as if this is not the case is to act against reality and ensure that we retain our present niche status.

  • Instead it should be ensured that obscure but harmful parts of the procedure not known to most parents {the standard lack of even analgesic, the damage of forceful retraction and the use of metal penetrative implements to pursue this} are made clear but that this is not the focal point of efforts made. If such language is to be used then “An act of disfigurement” seems a suitable degree of severity.

  • The worth of what is lost rather than the horror of the manner in which this absence is achieved is worth stressing. Most in America are unaware that the prepuce is an erogenous zone and that it is must be stressed, with testimony from intact men utilised.

  • It is perfectly possible for an intactivist to convince a pair of parents not to circumcise their newborn and cause more harm for good. If those parents continue to regularly retract as part of his washing routine their intact child he is consequentially far more likely to require a later circumcision which will be more traumatic and also serve as one of those scare story anecdotes for all around him. This sets our cause back far more than his few years of mercy advance it. Whenever intactivising we must ensure that those you have convinced ensure that they know the basics.

  • If a parent is overwhelmed with guilt and contrition for “their” decision after they learn what they have had done to their child then that is an appropriate reaction. It is not appropriate for us to attempt to conjure that reaction in those where it is not forthcoming.


Society
  • The approach of intactivising upon encountering parents-to-be and then only is inherently doomed to failure. Without convincing the culture of America that this is a practice which is outmoded, cruel and destructive we shall always struggle with those who hear nothing but negative words upon the topic of foreskin until they encounter us.

  • This struggle, therefore, can not be one staged entirely with those who are still viable to have children of their own. We must strive to create a society which is tolerant of the intact penis and this is a work far broader than that of simply attempting to convert those who are already pregnant or have partners who are.

  • The exact methods of this are rather more problematic than the reasoning behind why it is a superior approach. I suggest rampant opportunism. If you are part of any social group, any at all, that does not share {either through cultural default or having been informed. Or both.} the basic stance of our movement then make efforts to inform them. If these fail then at least do your best to at least reduce the level to which they see disfigurement of the newly born as vital.

  • This element of the fight requires those that are part of the movement to be entirely shameless. Only through frank distribution of the issue through any means necessary will the cultural shift from foreskin being seen as a harbinger of pestilence fit only for removal be reversed. Talk up the worth of the prepuce wherever possible and mention the violation and removal of this value by circumcision to any and all you know who you suspect may not be aware of these facts already. This need not be persistent or constant, simply raising it upon one occasion should be sufficient unless they require or request further discussions.

  • This can be anything from social groups in coffee bars to collective meetings of the institutional variety to internet forums. The aim is to destroy the negative perception of foreskin that exists within American society and thus undercut any desire to annihilate it, along with stressing the harm inflicted in the procedure required to do so.

  • This renders everyone from the elderly to the infertile of importance, regardless of their inability to have children of their own. They provide a background in which this decision is made, they are who the context consists of.

  • Some will learn by comparison of America to other nations. The Scandinavians are not toppling over upon the street in vast swathes owing to foreskin-induced penis infections. Remind them of this, inform them of this. Others may only accept examples from within their own culture, in which case use the model of positive deviancy.

  • Culture is what must be converted, for if it is not we risk much of our gains sliding and slipping away and making a mockery of the time devoted to their achievement.


Conclusion:
  • Parents offer us direct damage to the national habit but greater gains will occur if indirect methods are used in tandem with the parentally focused approach. Spread the word wide, bury the message broad. Think. Always think.
post #2 of 24
Why are you retired?
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
I am retired for my own well being.

I found that my efforts were devouring my time and mind and permeating my subconscious. It was effectively my dominant means of spending leisure time and this is an issue which I invariably find upsetting and thus was persistently unsettled by while active online to trying to end the atrocity across the Atlantic as best I could.

I feel a lot happier now that I am not involved, although I imagine that this would be impossible if I were in the US instead of UK.
post #4 of 24
Great post and I agree with many of your points and ideas. Thanks, James.
post #5 of 24
Fantastic. Thank you.
post #6 of 24
Hello James,

i'm glad you still pop in from time to time. It's important to have balance in our lives. It feels awful when there isn't any. I'm glad to know that you are finding the balance that you needed.

I'm also glad to know that you are still helping out occasionally. Your post is very important. It's very well thought out, and I appreciate it.

My Intactivism has, at times, felt all-consuming too. I know exactly how bad that feels. I force myself to put it down periodically. It really helps me stay sane.

Placing limits on what/when and how much to contribute, doesn't mean you have to "retire". It just means that you have a sharper understanding of what your limitations are.

Thanks for stopping by James.
post #7 of 24
Thread Starter 
Papai&MJ: Thank you.

kldliam: Perhaps semi-retired, then? Thanks.

Perhaps I should have put in a bullet point about not letting it all drive you insane...


And you are all welcome.
post #8 of 24
James, I am in general agreement with what you have written with one exception, the motivations of doctors.

I do believe there is a generally high level of financial motivation in the medical profession. Note that I did not say "greed" but financial motivation. There is a difference.

I believe this is started long before a doctor starts their education to become a doctor. The lifestyle of doctors is often put on public display and the conspicious consumption is recognized by all. This is especially true of small towns where doctor's homes and luxury automobiles are readily identifiable and serve as an example.


By the time a student gets to the university level, it is also recognized that getting the education and serving the internship is an onerously expensive proposition, one that will haunt the student for a long time. It is also recognized that setting up a practice is also very expensive and that the rewards of the profession are expected to cover this initial expense. Once covered, a luxurious lifestyle can be expected.

With this enormous initial expense and obligation comes at least some degree of desperation and that degree of desperation and worry causes some to perform procedures that do not meet the definition of "necessary." This is shown in cases of doctors who justify circumcision by "The parents demand it." The implication here is that if the doctors don't fill this demand, the patients will leave their practice and they will lose that revenue stream so they cave to the patients demands to protect their practice. Circumcision is not the only area where this is seen. Patients suffering viral infections demand antibiotics which have no effect on viruses but the doctors write prescriptions for antibiotics to comfort the patient. This practice has resulted in drug resistant strains of bacteria such as methicillin resistant staph aureus that are now bedeviling medical institutions and causing deaths.

In another instance, studies have shown that 60% of hysterectomies are performed on women who did not need them. The conclusion of the study was that the majority of the procedures were performed for the doctor's financial well being.

In yet another study, it was found that patients presenting in emergency rooms with heart attacks were substantially more likely to survive the affliction if their ER physician had been in practice less than 10 years than if he had been in practice more than 20 years. The conclusion was that physicians are not making the investment in time and money to keep up with the latest treatments for heart attack victims.

In the circumcision issue, when The North Carolina Legislature voted to defund Medicaid payments for routine circumcision some 30 years after their professional associations first concluded it should not be performed, the medical profession poured more than $1 million into politicians campaign coffers and got the law rescinded a mere 10 days later. Yet they claim circumcision is a net money losing proposition. Their actions belie their words.

The American Medical Association has realized the public perception of doctors has changed in recent years and in a recent advertising program has endeavored to change that perception through a series of public service advertisements. These advertisements portray doctors as as all giving, devoted and saintly public servants only concerned for the best interests of their patients. I personally don't think the millions of dollars spent did much for the profile and reputations of doctors.

In recent years, there has been much discussion that The US should have a public health care system. If this were implemented and doctor's educations were paid by the government, they were given a guaranteed salary of say $200,000.00 per year and the government covered all of their business expenses, I believe the ranks of doctors would quickly fall to the point that the medical care system would crumble. That system would remove the great financial rewards and replace them with just good financial rewards, a salary that would give them a good lifestyle instead of a lavish lifestyle. I believe doctors would be leaving the profession in droves and there would be few new doctors coming into the profession.

It may not be "all about the money" but money is a significant factor. That is not necessarily greed but instead, financial motivation and financial motivation is not necessarily a bad thing.

.
post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thank you for your post, Rising.

There are a few responses I wish to make:

Quote:
Patients suffering viral infections demand antibiotics which have no effect on viruses but the doctors write prescriptions for antibiotics to comfort the patient. This practice has resulted in drug resistant strains of bacteria such as methicillin resistant staph aureus that are now bedeviling medical institutions and causing deaths.
As far as I am aware this is also concerningly widespread in Britain as well. We have a number of "Super-bugs" over here and we also have an NHS. I have seen no evidence to suggest that our private system is more responsible for the existence of strains such as MRSA and C. Difficile than the public system.

It is a possibility but until I do I am not sure that this can be pinned upon the system.

Quote:
In another instance, studies have shown that 60% of hysterectomies are performed on women who did not need them. The conclusion of the study was that the majority of the procedures were performed for the doctor's financial well being.
My conclusion would be incompetence. Again, in Britain there is an NHS. In Britain NHS doctors perform far too many hysterectomies.

Quote:
In yet another study, it was found that patients presenting in emergency rooms with heart attacks were substantially more likely to survive the affliction if their ER physician had been in practice less than 10 years than if he had been in practice more than 20 years. The conclusion was that physicians are not making the investment in time and money to keep up with the latest treatments for heart attack victims.
What does this show us?

Quote:
In recent years, there has been much discussion that The US should have a public health care system. If this were implemented and doctor's educations were paid by the government, they were given a guaranteed salary of say $200,000.00 per year and the government covered all of their business expenses, I believe the ranks of doctors would quickly fall to the point that the medical care system would crumble. That system would remove the great financial rewards and replace them with just good financial rewards, a salary that would give them a good lifestyle instead of a lavish lifestyle. I believe doctors would be leaving the profession in droves and there would be few new doctors coming into the profession.
Sorry to keep coming back to us but much the same claims were made of the move towards socialised medicine here in Britain. The NHS was predicted by conservatives to collapse, yet still it stands.

I am not implying that it is a vision of perfection, there is much that could be improved, just that it seems perfectly possible to attract doctors with the prospect of a decent salary and a robust pension, even when private companies are offering to slather money over them like butter over bread.

It would seem that most doctors are not there for the money, after all, for they did not switch professions here.

Quote:
It may not be "all about the money" but money is a significant factor. That is not necessarily greed but instead, financial motivation and financial motivation is not necessarily a bad thing.
Well thank you for your assessment. But what does this achieve? I have stated that if we wish to make progress we must target doctors and that is the truth. With them unconvinced this struggle shall be fierce, with them as our allies we could make progress virtually by default, as occurred in New Zealand.

It is crucial that we convince as many doctors as possible.
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revamp View Post
To convince doctors of the case against is one of the most vital tasks before us, one which serious resources {especially time} must be devoted to the achievement of. For every doctor which shifts their view the majority of their patients which depend upon them for medical information will follow. This could easily ensure that hundreds of infants are saved by a single person changing their mind. This makes them a vital target for our efforts.
This is a very important point, and one worth repeating. A doctor can talk almost any parent out of circing, if the doctor wants to. We should especially educate medical students, as they have many years of practice ahead of them.
post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 
This was inspired by a conversation I had with a friend a short while ago.

The topic of leafleting maternity wards in America with anti-circumcision material somehow came up {I really can not recall how} and she said that that would be unlikely to work: in there you are treated much like a piece of cattle {she is a mother, who had a nasty and unnecessary c-section that her doctor botched, no less} in that they try and get you in, the baby birthed and then out. You are in too much of a drugged up stupor to be conscious much of the time, let alone reading in-house literature.

Now I know that that is not the conditions offered by every hospital but it dawned on me that by then it is much too late anyway. If all you have ever heard about the issue previously was that every boy gets circumcised {or maybe that some don't and they get penis infections and it happens later on} and all that you have heard about foreskin is that it is ugly and unhygienic and the odds are that you have never had a sexual partner with one or {if a man} you do not have one yourself, then...

It's usually too late.

If the first time you encounter our message is one not supported by any of your previous cultural in-put then what is the more likely conclusion: that the person telling you this is mad or that your entire society, especially its medical establishment, is mad?

Why do you think our movement is so often seen as extreme, as bizarre, outlandish, creepy, rabid? {That last one I read on a doctor's blog earlier this morning.} Partially because of poor, counter-active tactics but partially because our message is just so entirely at odds with the message presented by society as a whole. Here foreskin is undesirable or, at very best, entirely negligible. It is either something positively negative or else something frivolous, of little worth and no significance, not something which makes a difference either way.

This is why focusing purely upon the horrors of the operation itself rather than the outcome is unwise.

So amongst our main goals should be a shift in perception. We must do our best to ensure that it is not only seen as something that is of no harm {it seems like progress is being made in this direction} but also as something of actual worth. Once it is accepted as an erogenous zone more widely the default being to retain it should be more widely accepted.

The point is that although great gains have been made it still seems {albeit from this side of the pond} that American culture is not all that foreskin-friendly. And if you have children born into that environment it is likely that a lot of circumcisions will happen anyway: doctors will encourage it to happen either through their rhetoric or forced retraction, or both. Parents will do the latter themselves, causing circumcisions that need never have happened and thus creating sons likely to do it to their children to "Save them the pain" and anecdotes abounding, as they seem to now, and encouraging the continuation of the carnage.

So long as the culture opposes foreskin progress for us will be slow.
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revamp View Post

So amongst our main goals should be a shift in perception. We must do our best to ensure that it is not only seen as something that is of no harm {it seems like progress is being made in this direction} but also as something of actual worth. Once it is accepted as an erogenous zone more widely the default being to retain it should be more widely accepted.
I always try to educate about the foreskin and it's many functions FIRST while having a discussion about circ. Nearly 100% of the time I am met with astonishment because so many people simply did not know the foreskin had a function at all. This is a great post. It's giving me many thoughts to ponder.
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revamp View Post
Thank you for your post, Rising.

As far as I am aware this is also concerningly widespread in Britain as well. We have a number of "Super-bugs" over here and we also have an NHS. I have seen no evidence to suggest that our private system is more responsible for the existence of strains such as MRSA and C. Difficile than the public system.

It is a possibility but until I do I am not sure that this can be pinned upon the system.
Here, it has been conclusively linked to over prescribing of antibiotics among other factors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Rising
In yet another study, it was found that patients presenting in emergency rooms with heart attacks were substantially more likely to survive the affliction if their ER physician had been in practice less than 10 years than if he had been in practice more than 20 years. The conclusion was that physicians are not making the investment in time and money to keep up with the latest treatments for heart attack victims.
What does this show us?[/quote]

It shows that physicians are not keeping up with current technology and changes in medical practice. There was a book a few years ago titled "I Learned Everything I Need To Know in Kindergarten" that seems to sum up many doctors thinking on continuing education in their field. They rely on the education they received in medical school and during their internship and do not keep up with the latest medical advancements. Many pediatricians do not feel that circumcision is a topic they need to study and learn about. This would be especially true of OB/GYNs who are specialists in female genitalia and reproduction and do not regard male sexuality as germaine to their specialty but yet perform about 80% of all male circumcisions.





Quote:
Sorry to keep coming back to us but much the same claims were made of the move towards socialised medicine here in Britain. The NHS was predicted by conservatives to collapse, yet still it stands.

I am not implying that it is a vision of perfection, there is much that could be improved, just that it seems perfectly possible to attract doctors with the prospect of a decent salary and a robust pension, even when private companies are offering to slather money over them like butter over bread.

It would seem that most doctors are not there for the money, after all, for they did not switch professions here.
There are definitely problems with government sponsored health care but there are significant problems with private health care as well. Health care has become so expensive here that if it were not for medical insurance provided by employers and Medicaid, most people would not be able to afford it. So many people here do not have private insurance that the system is in danger of crumbling. If I remember the statistics correctly, somewhere between 1/3 and 40% of Americans who do not qualify for Medicaid are not covered by private insurance plans. Our laws require that these people be treated when they present at hospitals and the cost is absorbed by the hospital. This has resulted in several hospitals in my area closing and the major trauma center in the area is currently about $100 million in debt and in danger of closing.

Someone such as a doctor or attorney that has a substantial investment in their education and experience is unlikely to change professions. Even people who have no industry experience in their jobs do not change job categories easily. If the US did go to a government provided health care system, I don't see many of them changing professions or job categories. The government system would pay them more than they would make if they went into a profession where they had no specific education or experience. If they did abandon the healthcare profession, they would be in the same essential position as a recent university graduate and would have little advantage over those grads.



Quote:
Well thank you for your assessment. But what does this achieve? I have stated that if we wish to make progress we must target doctors and that is the truth. With them unconvinced this struggle shall be fierce, with them as our allies we could make progress virtually by default, as occurred in New Zealand.
I believe your assessment is correct. This re-education has to start with the medical schools and that has been a difficult target to hit. Those professors are "old school" and are resistant to outside influences from non-medical types. It is also important to realize that there is so much to cover in medical school that circumcision is given virtually no mention. Those who have attended medical school report that circumcision was given 5 minutes or less. This leaves us the job of changing the culture and re-educating current physicians. It will take a multi-pronged approach to defeat this monster.


Quote:
It is crucial that we convince as many doctors as possible.
Yes, but that is probably our most difficult task. Not many doctors visit sites such as this one so we have to take the education to them in their offices. This is being done by one mother at a time and one doctor at a time. Eventually the doctors that fully support circumcision will rotate out of the profession through retirement or attrition but this will be a painfully slow process. The falling circumcision rate will help but it will be another 30 years or more until the current circumcision rate is matched by intact doctors in practice.

.
post #14 of 24
Oops, double post!
post #15 of 24
Thread Starter 
Rising: I perused your post quite perfectly and have found not a word which I disagreed with.

You are entirely correct that it will be a real struggle and one which will take time to complete. I agree with you entirely on this and we both agree that despite this it is one which must be made.

Your point concerning heart machines was one which I was unable to see the relevance of but with your explanation I understand the implications for the topic under discussion perfectly. Thank you for clarifying and my apologies for being obtuse.

I was not questioning the connection of "Super-bugs" and over-use of antibiotics at all. That has been demonstrated clearly and consistently. I was simply saying that, although vastly superior, the public health system is culpable in this as well and it thus seems to be something more associated with demand and ease than profit margins.

That, of course, is entirely off topic, though.

The point is that the doctors who do come here, or elsewhere where we either reside or visit, should not receive from us the perception that we consider them entirely motivated by finances. I find it far more likely that the majority consider it to be an act that increases the health of the child who they perform it upon, rather than simply seeing newborns as a resource and source of revenue.

I imagine that anyone under such a misapprehension as the former would by loath to have the latter alleged of them and thus unreceptive to the actual message.


Lauren:

Quote:
I always try to educate about the foreskin and it's many functions FIRST while having a discussion about circ. Nearly 100% of the time I am met with astonishment because so many people simply did not know the foreskin had a function at all. This is a great post. It's giving me many thoughts to ponder.
A sterling approach Lauren, and my thanks for your praise. I am glad that I have inspired consideration, such was my aim.

The difficulty we face is that even if fears of circumcision's pain increase it is likely that a simple conversion of methods to the penile nerve block could assuage parental fears entirely. This approach does seem to be effective in creating a substantial reduction in pain {save for the injections themselves, of course, which seem horrendous in their penetrative jabbings} as it results in almost total numbness for the entire penis. This makes matters far more comfortable for all concerned and thus we will simply see the procedure continuing, with the infants being better treated while it occurs.

This is certainly not as poor as the present but it is far from the optimum.

The damage of circumcision caused by circumcision lasts long after its duration and the healing of the wound into scar tissue. It is the removal of an erogenous zone from the human body. That the people which you refer to are all unaware of the foreskin's purpose {pleasure} is indicative of the problem which we face in the advancement of our cause.

Until headway is made here the best we can hope for is total reform rather than absolute abolition.
post #16 of 24
Revamp, thank you for a wonderful, thought-provoking post. Thank you, too, Lauren82. It has given me a lot to think about.
If we can convince people that the foreskin has value, that it is an essential part of the penis and NOT just a "flap of skin," then that may be more effective than detailing all the horrors of circumcision.
I also totally agree with you that we need to get doctors and nurses on our side. One of the reasons that La Leche League has been so effective in increasing the breastfeeding rate in the U.S. is that from the beginning they have had a professional advisory board of doctors to counsel them. These doctors, in turn, have affected other doctors. Can we get something like that going?
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revamp View Post
The point is that the doctors who do come here, or elsewhere where we either reside or visit, should not receive from us the perception that we consider them entirely motivated by finances. I find it far more likely that the majority consider it to be an act that increases the health of the child who they perform it upon, rather than simply seeing newborns as a resource and source of revenue.

I imagine that anyone under such a misapprehension as the former would by loath to have the latter alleged of them and thus unreceptive to the actual message.
Here is how I think the profit motive comes into play:

Since most men in The US are circumcised, most doctors are circumcised, maybe to a higher percentage than the general population. Thus, these male doctors and female doctors have no first hand experience with a foreskin. The common perception among these doctors seems to be that it is nothing more than an aggravating piece of worthless skin. Since these men are able to engage in coitus and the women are able to observe this and it appears to be a rewarding experience, this re-inforces that the foreskin is without value or function. There is also the perception that there are some prophylactic values to circumcision as well as some social value. They take an approach that even if there are not, it is a sum zero procedure in its effects on the man, that is no gain but no downside. They also consider the pain inconsequential and fleeting. Most have no idea that there is a significant portion of the male population that feel violated and assume that there is very near 100% agreement among men that circumcision is best. They in no way understand the idea of a man feeling his integrity and rights have been violated.

In this situation, the stage is set for profit mongering. They see the procedure as a non-harmful way to put $200.00 in their pocket in something of a part time job during non-office hours. In this situation, the question is no longer "Why should I do this" and instead becomes "Why shouldn't I do this?" At that time, justification sets in and they use shreds of irrational thinking to support why they should.

They also think of future business. They often believe that if they don't cave to parental request for the procedure, the parents will go to another physician for the procedure and will continue to use that physician for their future healthcare and not return to that physicians practice. Since they have already justified it in their own mind, they provide the procedure to retain business. That is the money motivation part and it is money motivation in its basic form. You just have to understand the psychology behind it.

If the physician ever had any qualms about what he/she is doing, that quickly fades as they perform more of the procedures. After they have performed a number of them, the effect is then that they have to justify what they have done by continuing to perform the procedure and by presenting false information supporting it or at the least not condemning it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by njeb
These doctors, in turn, have affected other doctors. Can we get something like that going?
In fact, NOCIRC has a number of doctor members and there is also Doctors Opposing Circumcision. So far, the numbers are small for both organizations. I have no idea how the changing face of circumcision will affect membership in these organizations but somehow, I don't see great change in the future.

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post #18 of 24
Thread Starter 
Rising: again, I agree with everything there but I would suggest more emphasis being placed upon the fact that Doctors thinking that they are doing good.

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If we can convince people that the foreskin has value, that it is an essential part of the penis and NOT just a "flap of skin," then that may be more effective than detailing all the horrors of circumcision.
At the core of it I consider us to have a wholly positive message: much as the LLL, who you mentioned, are effectively stating that there is a substance with no negative side-effects that will protect a child from disease and add to the chances of them growing up happily and healthily and which is available entirely for free our movement are stating that men have one more erogenous zone than many people realise, one which makes sex a poetically beautiful thing and which also protects their glans from being desensitized and that all that is required in terms from in-put from parents is to leave it alone.

That, surely, is glorious news.

Quote:
I have no idea how the changing face of circumcision will affect membership in these organizations but somehow, I don't see great change in the future.
Baseless negativity! If it is worked towards it may well be achieved.

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In fact, NOCIRC has a number of doctor members and there is also Doctors Opposing Circumcision. So far, the numbers are small for both organizations.
My immediate suggestion would be to merge.
post #19 of 24


Great post! I'm going to keep it and to remind me how to further the cause in an effective way.
post #20 of 24
I try to focus on the purpose of the foreskin as well. That's really what convinced me not to circumcise my DS. I think there are many many other reasons not to circ, however, personally, if I had thought the foreskin had no purpose or was in fact a liability, I probably wouldn't have been put off by the possibility of pain or the risk of complications. That's just me.

I'm very very glad to have learned about the function of the foreskin and to have an intact DS.
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