How to be a financial partner with dh/so that has issues? *update in last post*

[Shellie]

I have been reading the Dave Ramsey threads for weeks--and have wanted to do something similar. I'm so excited about taking control of ALL areas of my life (having a chronically ill child changes one's perspective) and I want to achieve true financial peace and peace in the other areas of my life I can control. I cannot do it alone, so I need to get my dh involved in our finances but it isn't going to be easy at first.

My dh though has a long-standing issue with finances and that has kept us from being able to even discuss them for over 10 years. If I make him, he blows up and we have a huge fight (and it's all my fault!) and nothing changes. If I asked for help or collaboration, he'd threaten to "take over" and make sure there was enough (which would mean I'd never be allowed to spend a dime).

Our finances are like an elephant lurking in the corner of the room....and it's his job to ignore the elephant and mine to tend to it! (He says this!)

I've had to juggle bills for, forever, really. Dh never has wanted to see the financial picture and I've carried the burden of it. There are things he should know and I've been open about but he's in denial about (bills, savings balance, etc.).

We have an "appointment" this weekend to start going over things together and I just know it's going to be a disaster. I have promised to give him the benefit of the doubt and he's promised that he'll have to prove himself to me--but I'm not so sure it can work. It's really the only isssue I have with our marriage and I want to fix it, NOW, but I am not sure he will be able to handle it.

I know this is NOT normal, but what can I do to make this transition easier? I have to stop my cycle of protecting him from reality and he has to stop being a jerk when he doesn't like the numbers!

Those with husbands with whom you CAN be 100% open about everything financial, how does it work? What's it like? I just want to know what I'm striving for here!

Anyone been in my situation and have you and dh/so overcome it?

Thanks!

[Purple*Lotus]

Okay, first of all, I want you to think positively. People can change. So go in to it with a good attitude, and not one of "Oh he wont do this anyhow", kind of thing, you know?

The DR plan isn't for everyone, so maybe you could suggest to your DH some other financial books that he can read and perhaps he might find a better program that he likes more.

I do feel it is important for you both to be working together. I would ask him what his goals are, short term, midterm and long term. I would also make a list of what your goals are, then compare and do not judge each other. Then see how you two can compromise.

If he wants nothing to do with the fiances, then fine, I would take over it all, but he needs to know that if he choses not to worry about it, that that means that he also choses to give up a lot of his financial freedom. My DH wants to go to work, come home and rest. He does not want to sit in front of the computer making up a budget. He does not want to read DR books. He does not want to come here to get support from other people. He trusts me and he wants me to handle it. So with that trust comes certain consequences to him. So I put us both on allowances of sorts, and it varies a lot. Sometimes we don't get any extras, but I always tell him ahead of time. Basically I tell him how much discretionary income he can have. If he doesn't like it, then he needs to work the budget with me. He hates budgeting, so he takes what money I give him, smiles, and is generally happy. He knows that if he wants more money, then he has to help.

I am lucky that DH and I have the same goals, we both want me to stay at home with our future children. So once in a while, we sit down and go over our bills together. Recently we sat down with a calculator and figured out how to live off of just his income for household bills. We had to eliminate some luxeries to do it, but we did it together. I felt that that was better than just saying "Oh, I am turning off the cell phones. just letting you know."

He shouldn't be yelling at you though, which makes me wonder if maybe he is just stressed out when you try to talk to him about it. I think making an appointment is a good idea, because then he knows it is coming up and can come to it relaxed.

I hope it works out for you. Don't hesitate to come to the DR thread for support, there is a wonderful group of ladies there.

[Shellie]

Thanks, Jaime! I think my dh wants to have his cake and eat it too--he's said in the past that he's fine with me handling it and giving him an allowance--sort of like your arrangement. He also doesn't want to have to spend any time researching, budgeting or planning. But he does want to know how much we have, when he feels like it. (This does bug me!)

Everything is fine as long as I don't tell him there isn't enough. Recently he took on extra work as he *knew* his regular salary left us a significant deficit monthly (we discussed this, he blew up) -- in fact, he was supposed to get a second job last January when he took a paycut. He didn't get the second job till November, which took a significant toll on our savings till that point (though he won't acknowledge this). Then, when he got his first check, he actually took it to the bank and converted it to gold coins (I kid you NOT!) and cash, because we didn't "need" the money. I got him to give me the cash after about a week, because I NEEDED it to pay bills. And he said, "Wow, I didn't know the situation was that dire. Maybe I should be handling the $$!"

Thing is, he knew the new job didn't pay enough. And he avoided it. And any time I brought it up, he bullied me and I let him, I guess because I like having control. But I don't want it anymore.

He's promised not to yell about anything this weekend when we go over things--I will try to be positive and hope it works. I've already said if he's not respectful or if he yells or even says anything remotely negative that I will end it (the discussion, not the marriage LOL). He's got somewhat of an explosive temper, which is why we STOPPED being involved together. But I've realized I need to fix out dynamic and get him on board with reality, or we'll never get anywhere! (We're 35, don't own a home, have virtually no savings and 4 kids! And we used to own a home, since we were 21!) We do have good income right now with two very promising businesses started last year, so I figured it's time to handle this TOGETHER!

I'm still nervous. Once read about a woman (on another board) who'd racked up $75k in CC debt behind her dh's back--and she shared her story while she got up her nerve to tell him, etc. I feel the same way, but I haven't done anything wrong!

[Denvergirlie]

Have you considered getting a dry erase board and listing all the debts, balances, etc and post in the kitchen. That way your DH can always see the totals, the short falls, whatever without you all having to discuss and get in a fight. If he doesn't like the writing on the wall so be it, but at least he will be aware without you "nagging" him.


You can check off monthly bills as they are paid and use a red market to note stuff that is short for the month. Perhaps getting the two of you on the same page just needs to include some more knowledge for your DH.

Whatever way you go, you've got to get this worked out. Money issues is the number one reason for divorce.

Good luck

[cdahlgrd]

We have serious issues with money too. whenever I try to make a budget, dh feels restricted, and suddenly "needs" a new computer or something expensive. When we sit down together, we both have strong ideas about how the money should be split, so we fight. We end up, 1 of us doing all the money, and the other ignoring it. Not good.

I liked the idea of the white board! I may have to do that myself. (My dh Loves white boards and making lists )

[Vypros]

If worse came to worse, and you couldn't get him to change his spending habits, then maybe you could be more forceful with it, and have a day where you get him to surrender any credit cards to you (and cut them up) and take control of the money and give him an alotted amount to spend each month.

Other than that, I dunno. Your best bet is figuring out a way to get through to him, but I don't know how to do that. It's gotta be difficult being married and having to get both people on board with something like this. So kudos for at least trying!

[lmonter]

We have an "appointment" this weekend to start going over things together and I just know it's going to be a disaster. I have promised to give him the benefit of the doubt and he's promised that he'll have to prove himself to me--but I'm not so sure it can work. It's really the only issue I have with our marriage and I want to fix it, NOW, but I am not sure he will be able to handle it.
Any way you could maybe see a financial planner? Hearing stuff from a neutral third party that he doesn't share a bed with at night may help. Plus I'd guess he would be less likely to have a fit in front of someone else, you know?

I know this is NOT normal, but what can I do to make this transition easier? I have to stop my cycle of protecting him from reality and he has to stop being a jerk when he doesn't like the numbers!
Well, then honestly, he needs to come up with a solution to better like the numbers. He can come up with solutions as well as you can, then the both of you can decide what to do and what will work. Whether it includes him delivering pizzas at night or cutting down on various expenses, etc. Just because you don't like the numbers doesn't mean they're going to change. Besides, facing the scary budget monster isn't so bad. Either you control your finances, or they control you. I've done years of the latter, and I *much* prefer the current way of us controlling our finances.

Those with husbands with whom you CAN be 100% open about everything financial, how does it work? What's it like? I just want to know what I'm striving for here!
It's nice. Sorry, but it is. Hubby and I have similar goals. In fact in the next few weeks we want to sit down and do a more official 5-year plan so we know where we want to go and how we're going to get there. We know passwords to all the accounts, check stuff online periodically, and touch base on the monthly budget/spending plan here and there. We need to get back on track as we've kind of veered off course a little, but not too bad. We were also very upfront about money when we got engaged. No, I wasn't thrilled that he had $22K in student loans, but we're dealing with it. I do still call them his student loans because they truly are his, but the payments are coming out of our monthly budget. When we get any unexpected/"extra" money, we decide together where it goes (paying off more principle on the car, the student loan, buying the king-sized bed we've been drooling over for 3 years, etc.). There are no secrets, no hidden accounts (heh, at least that I know of), we both know our filing system, blah blah blah. We actually feel better both knowing all that's going on financial-wise... I can't tell you how many nights I tossed and turned freaking out about finances before we put an actual budget and plan in place. Now I just toss and turn because of the gestating.

Anyone been in my situation and have you and dh/so overcome it?
My MIL divorced my FIL after 28 or 29 years in part *because* of finances. They had years of FIL making a bunch of money (Like $300K! I can only dream of that much money!), but they were *both* the types that preferred to keep their head in the sand and not pay attention. They have no savings to speak of. Unless you include an '87 Volvo that's falling apart. As an outsider looking in and hearing different versions of how it all went down, it just seems like they didn't respect/trust each other, especially in the case of money. FIL thought MIL couldn't handle money, yet he can manage to gamble away $50K in two months (usually through "quick/easy" stocks or something equally stupid). And so on. Just, ugh.
On the other hand, my parents are the most annoying throwback to the Cleavers. Dad does everything financial, Mom's hard-pressed to know where all the account numbers are. *sigh* It's going to be interesting when Dad dies and Mom has to do all the money stuff for herself (he's got a cancerous brain tumor, she hasn't balanced a checkbook let alone done anything investment/bill wise in 38 years). Hubby and I have made a *very* conscious decision to *not* be our parents. At all.

[Shellie]

Thanks for the input, girls! It really does help!

Several things stood out to me--my parents are in a terrible situation as well. My dad had many years where he made anywhere from $150k-$250k and he never saved a dime--blew it all on boats, houses, cars, RVs, failed businesses, etc. Now he's almost 70 and can't make enough to meet their expenses. My mom, who always paid the bills but never had a job, had to bail him out of bad business deals, etc. several times and that ate up any savings she ever managed to accumulate. They are completely and totally screwed, to the point where they're each depressed and I worry they'll do something foolish.

This scares my dh--and me too! We don't want to head that way. My dh makes a very good living and has been working three jobs since November (essentially doubling his take-home from his "main" job) and we're still bleeding money. Something has to change.

Although our expenses are crazy ($1800/mo for rent and 3 car payments totalling over $1000, etc.) we should still have more. We haven't had enough cash to pay off the deficit we'd have if we sold one of the cars--two have been for sale for two years and we haven't been able to get enough. We're hoping the balance on one is now low enough now to sell it for what we owe. Hoping!

[jlutgendorf]

I'm sort of going through this with my partner right now, only difference is he never offers to take over (and I don't think I could let him! ).

What's helped is just being firm. "we don't have the money for that right now." If he gets upset, "well, can you sit down with me and go over our budget? There are some areas we can tighten, but I'm not sure how."

I also told him one day that I wasn't doing this (tight budget) just to see if we could do it. It was because I'm scared. We're one paycheck away from loosing everything! If he or I dies or is seriously injured, we're screwed. I think being really honest about my fears helped him understand that he needs to help me budget to keep his family safe and secure (or at least on that path).

In fact, he just agreed to sell our newer car so we could get rid of the car payment! It was awesome to drop almost 9 grand in debt!

Above all, I just keep going. I set the budget and I do the best to keep us on track. If he doesn't like it, that's fine, but he can't get rude about it (not that he does, it just makes him sad).

Good luck! let us know how it goes for you.

~Julia

[Piglet68]

Originally Posted by ~*Jaime

If he wants nothing to do with the fiances, then fine, I would take over it all, but he needs to know that if he choses not to worry about it, that that means that he also choses to give up a lot of his financial freedom. My DH wants to go to work, come home and rest. He does not want to sit in front of the computer making up a budget. He does not want to read DR books. He does not want to come here to get support from other people. He trusts me and he wants me to handle it. So with that trust comes certain consequences to him. So I put us both on allowances of sorts, and it varies a lot. Sometimes we don't get any extras, but I always tell him ahead of time. Basically I tell him how much discretionary income he can have. If he doesn't like it, then he needs to work the budget with me. He hates budgeting, so he takes what money I give him, smiles, and is generally happy.

This is more or less what we do. DH is interested in the budget and expects regular updates from me, but he'd rather not manage any of it himself. If I'm reading you right, you already pay the bills, balance the accounts, etc. is that right? If I were in your shoes and your weekend appointment gets derailed, I would probably just move money out of your main account and put it in various accounts for your needs, like an account from which bill payments are automatically withdrawn, an account for savings or debt repayment. Leave in your main account only his "discretionary funds" and then when he's spent it all he'll get a big ol' DENIED when he goes to use his debit card or get cash. That might wake him up a bit!

Originally Posted by Shellie

he's said in the past that he's fine with me handling it and giving him an allowance--sort of like your arrangement. He also doesn't want to have to spend any time researching, budgeting or planning. But he does want to know how much we have, when he feels like it. (This does bug me!)

I don't get it. Why does it bug you that he wants to know how much you have? Or is it his response to you telling him how much you have, lol. In the latter case, I think the idea of a whiteboard is a great one. You can agree that you'll update it, say every month or more, so that he can see where you stand at-a-glance. But it makes it harder to "shoot the messenger".

You could also make a visual graph representing how much debt you have and how much you're paying off so he can visually see the debt numbers going down and/or the savings numbers increasing. If he can visualize the good you are doing then it might impress him.

[SusannahM]

I think , maybe concentrate on yalking about outflow and thinking of ways to decrease that instead of on inflow would be best. It sounds like he's just very sensitive to not making enough money to meet your needs. Start out with "I think I've thought of some new ways for us to save money. I'd like your input on them, and I need some creative thought to come up with some more." Or, "I was going over some of our bills, and I wasn't sure some of the options we had on this bill were necessary (or wasn't sure we still needed our cable subscription, or whatever)." Just get the dialog started that way and maybe it can go from there?

[katheek77]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

DH is interested in the budget and expects regular updates from me, but he'd rather not manage any of it himself. If I'm reading you right, you already pay the bills, balance the accounts, etc. is that right? If I were in your shoes and your weekend appointment gets derailed, I would probably just move money out of your main account and put it in various accounts for your needs, like an account from which bill payments are automatically withdrawn, an account for savings or debt repayment. Leave in your main account only his "discretionary funds" and then when he's spent it all he'll get a big ol' DENIED when he goes to use his debit card or get cash. That might wake him up a bit!

.

That's essentially what we do. Not because my husband is horrible with money or is controlling or anything like that. Basically, we set it up this way b/c my husband is in the military and is often gone. You can't exactly call home from Iraq when you get a chance to buy something. Anyway, it worked out really well for us - me being "in charge", so to speak. He has no interest in doing all the work, and, really, doesn't have the time to do it - literally. One thing we do for some "autonomy" is putting money in our "own", pre-marriage accounts as an "allowance" for each of us to spend HOWEVER we want. If he wants to spend it all on Pez dispensers, that's his prerogative. If I want to take out 50 one-dollar bills and make little paper airplanes out of them, I can. The rest of the money is "household" money - savings, investments, bills, needs of the household. Wants are discussed - if DH needs/wants money for something, we discuss it, and vice versa. I set up the budget, discuss any major changes to it with him, let him know when we're getting low in an area or something like that. He tells me if something unexpected comes up - say, he needs a new uniform piece for work, or whatever. I tell him if I overspend, he tells me if he does, and we adjust the next month or whatever. Actually, we talk on almost a daily basis about our money, but, it's just a checkup sort of thing.

I have parents who are not in a good spot, and I think I'd go crazy if I were with someone without a realistic grasp on our finances. At the same time, I don't know why you're upset that he wants to know where y'all stand...seems like a normal desire...Good luck.

[Shellie]

I don't get it. Why does it bug you that he wants to know how much you have? Or is it his response to you telling him how much you have, lol.

It's definitely his response that bugs me but also a little that I have to bear all the stress that goes along with it, with no help, and then occasionally he wants numbers. Sometimes he appeases himself with numbers but nothing changes for me or how hard it is to deal with it.

[Shellie]

Originally Posted by katheek77

At the same time, I don't know why you're upset that he wants to know where y'all stand...seems like a normal desire...Good luck.

Just because he's refused to be involved for so long and now it's almost like it's "check up on Shellie" time! And I know it will be my fault that we spend every dime he makes.

But I'm trying to overcome!

[Shellie]

*update*

We survived! LOL! Still married...no one moved out or got arrested.

Seriously, it went really well! I spent the week organizing much of our bill-related paperwork, printed out 3-6 months of records and statements online and filed everything. I have a ways to go getting other paperwork organized (have several boxes of "piles") but everything we need access to is at our fingertips. I also set up YNAB and that was amazing--the best part. He could see our spending trends and also the starts of the new zero-based budget that I've been pushing for. He was really impressed because he thought he'd have to manually trend stuff to look for places to trim.

The amazing part was that not only did he not raise his voice, he didn't get upset at all! He was concerned that we spend more than we both thought but he wasn't angry and I didn't even get any bad vibes. The final outcome was that we're going to cut about $1200/mo off the budget by selling the extra car and reducing all our eating out/convenience eating and he's going to continue his extra jobs (consulting) to make more $$. He's also stepping up his efforts on something we're developing for one of our business ideas. He thinks he can have it ready in a few weeks now, which is good!

I cannot even begin to say how much relief I feel. I feel like a weight about a million pounds has been removed from me. I've been in charge of juggling and keeping things going for so many years (and as many of you know, having not enough money is a full-time job in itself!) and being all alone in my worries and frustrations. I am so grateful that I will truly have a partner in this--this is the way it's supposed to be! I also am so impressed with how much my husband has matured!! I've always kind of felt like I married a jerk but I love him, so I'll put up with it. He's changed so much in the past many years in other areas--but I never imagined he'd be able to do the finances/budgeting with me in a civil way...it sounds corny but it's like a dream has come true. We going to be OK.

[hopefulfaith]

That's great, Shellie! Good for you for handling it so well and also seeing what he needed to make him feel comfortable about it as well.

[mtm]

sounds like a great conversation!